Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #105

[MistyWaters]

What happened in the 23 mins between the pic of Abby and the video of BG?

No idea but one thing LE has never said if there are more photos on Libby’s cellphone, never shared by SC. And then there’s the “girl talk” that was recorded on Libby’s audio. But you’re right, if they never left the bridge they must’ve had a reason to remain there for those 23 minutes.

 

[Boxer]

I remember that story from somewhere too. I just don’t remember if it was a reliable source I heard it from or a social media rumor.

I looked extensively at the time but never found an MSM source for it, I may just not have found it.

 

[MistyWaters]

Others saw him on or near the trail, too. Nothing new about that, really.

A witness was walking their dog, and turned around at the bridge/end of the trail, and there was BG coming down the trail. I don't have a link It's been over two years, now, a lot of links for MSM reports about the case are now dead ends.

The witness said they passed BG, then passed A&L but didn't exchange any dialogue with the girls.

There were many people there that day, at various times. Describing when the girls were dropped off, Libby's sister has mentioned that there were "lots of kids" there, or something to that extent. So I'd imagine there were quite a few witnesses who saw BG, in that general area, whether up close or at a distance.

JMO

-FD

Libby’s grandmother, on one of the brief Dr Phil video clips said it just happened there was a lull about the time the girls were at the trail.

According to media reports, the female LE mentioned involved in the first sketch released July/17 apparently sighted the potential suspect “near the trail”. No time or place was stated regarding the person who “saw something” worth reporting and assisted with the more recent sketch.

I agree, the dog walking person has often been discussed here before but I’ve never noticed that anyone is able to provide a MSM source. Might it originate from FB? Otherwise if somebody indeed was up close to the murderer on the trail I wonder why the change to the very different sketch with LE stating the sketches are of two different people?

 

[MistyWaters]

I looked extensively at the time but never found an MSM source for it, I may just not have found it.

I wonder if it came from a FB post. But anybody can write whatever they want to attract attention whether their identity or story is true or not. The media often quotes FB posts and then edits their online reports if need be.

I distinctly recall it mentioned no one saw Libby or Abby on the trail but I can’t find a source for that either. But the reason I remember it was because of discussion here as well. Had it not been for Libby taking photos and videos, as no one seen them, then the investigation may not been able to determine their presence on the bridge where the murderer’s “criminal act” first began.

So even though LE hasn’t yet got that “one tip” I think Libby indeed was a hero in helping LE understand exactly what happened in preparation for a future trial.

 

[Sugarcane18]

No. I think it was over very quickly for them and LE seems to think so as well. They've stated that the picture was made just minutes before their deaths. It would not have been in BG's best interest to hold onto them down there by the creek. Too risky. I think he either killed them quickly because that's what he'd planned to do or it was a botched abduction and he underestimated them and killed them there before they could get away and point fingers at him.Statistics back up quick deaths after abductions.

Agree

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree.
MOO I think BG came from south side of the bridge, walked out past them far enough to see the other side clearly, suddenly turned around and aggressed on them. I think this because MOO if they saw a man approaching that far in advance on the bridge, they would at least try not be on the bridge itself by the time he got to them.

Especially if Abby wasn’t quite as agile walking across the rotting ties, if the man suddenly appeared from the SE end while the girls were on the bridge I can understand why they’d choose to let him pass instead of attempting to cross back ahead of him. If there was something creepy about him, by crossing to the NW they’d be walking with their backs to him. In that situation I’d be leery too, fearing if he was close behind he might try to push me off the side of the high bridge. It’s not a bridge where running is an option.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

... Otherwise if somebody indeed was up close to the murderer on the trail I wonder why the change to the very different sketch with LE stating the sketches are of two different people?

(Snipped by me for focus)
2 quick ideas (already discussed here on WS):
a.) LE maybe received a very useful tip in the last 4-5 months, changing their focus from the older-looking suspect to the younger-looking suspect (i. e., perhaps a tip came in that confirmed or refuted another possible suspect's alibi) , or...

b.) LE finally received back a super-detailed DNA analysis (maybe from Parabon?), including a "facial sketch", or "sketches" of a possible suspect (JMO speculation here, since I know nothing about the whole DNA submission process, though I have heard/read that it takes "awhile" for detailed results to come back).

Would be interested to read from other WS-ers here about the actual length of time it takes, from submitting DNA samples, to LE's receipt of, say, facial sketch(es), a forensic family tree, etc. TIA.

 

[cluciano63]

To me, a matter of minutes means rather than a matter of hours, as in they were killed soon after the encounter...not hours later. But I doubt it was literally five minutes, for example. Jmo

 

[Falling Down]

(Snipped by me for focus)
2 quick ideas (already discussed here on WS):
a.) LE maybe received a very useful tip in the last 4-5 months, changing their focus from the older-looking suspect to the younger-looking suspect (i. e., perhaps a tip came in that confirmed or refuted another possible suspect's alibi) , or...

b.) LE finally received back a super-detailed DNA analysis (maybe from Parabon?), including a "facial sketch", or "sketches" of a possible suspect (JMO speculation here, since I know nothing about the whole DNA submission process, though I have heard/read that it takes "awhile" for detailed results to come back).

Would be interested to read from other WS-ers here about the actual length of time it takes, from submitting DNA samples, to LE's receipt of, say, facial sketch(es), a forensic family tree, etc. TIA.

I've read up quite a bit on the turnaround for DNA searches and data to come back, from what I gather it could take months or even years. By that I mean if the DNA doesn't immediately match a person, and they (LE, FBI, etc.). resort to links to relatives, it could take months or even years. Parabon doesn't take too long, from what I gather, it just costs some money up front. The forensic genealogy stuff can take many months or even years.

I watched videos about the GSK last night, including interviews with some of the investigators. They linked GSK to a cousin who had submitted their DNA, and the link was a relative or relatives they both were related to via a marriage in the 1800's. Figure GSK was born in the 40's, so this could have been a great or maybe great-great set of grandparents, I'm speculating. Retired detective Holes said it took over four months, but just imagine the resources poured into that case once they had a familial link, some names, names of ancestors, etc. Four months, because they knew they were definitely on the trail of one of the most notorious criminals in American history, and there was a chance he was still alive. Exhaustive, painstaking work. Walking through cemeteries, collaborating with genealogy experts, etc. Figure in IRS and social security records, that sort of thing, and sure it can speed things up a bit, but both have been around for only so long.

The genealogy research I've done on some of my ancestors was painstaking, and I'm probably lucky I found much at all, versus a lot of people who try it. Things can get muddled quite a bit prior to 1930. Stands to reason why LE are turning to experts in these cases, now that the DNA tech has advanced so much in recent years.

I hope they have usable DNA in the Delphi case. I don't think LE have a clue who did it, however I do believe something has changed in recent months, the PC from February was kind of weak, I thought. Now with their new "direction" I wonder what information they're focusing on.

Even if they have DNA and it's being processed, examined, chased down, etc., it could take some time to flesh out. I think two things are key to the puzzle, 1. DNA, and 2. A credible tip which leads to a prime suspect.

JMO

-FD

 

[Sneaker33]

I have never read what Libby was wearing but I thought it was a tie dye shirt similar to the bright one her grandfather had on in an interview. Anyway I think BG was like a ticking timebomb waiting to explode. I suspect he had a recent disappointment in a relationship. He may have come to the bridge before festering with anger but did not act out his aggression. On February 13, 2017 one or both of the girls reminded him of someone who had betrayed him in his mind thus providing motivation for attacks. Just my opinion.

 

[Falling Down]

I just re-read some stuff about the GSK case. Look up "computational geneticist", it's a new science of sorts, but some geeky types at some prestigious schools are working on software to help with chasing down ancestry via DNA.

 

[Sugarcane18]

Regarding the usage of DNA to approximate facial features and characteristics, does anyone know if it is the similar method the 23andme DNA kits use? If so, and if that is where the 2nd sketch came from, I find it very concerning.

I had a 23andme kit done and it's assessment of what I most likely look like is so incredibly inaccurate. I would even say it's the EXACT opposite. I pray that's not an issue in this case.

 

[sunshineray]

Hi Falling Down, I had a second reliable individual who collaborated there was a witness seen leaving the area. Unfortunately The MSM link to that interview has been taken down and is no longer available.So I am left with Mike P’s statement on Dr Phil’s Show that indeed there was an eye witness who saw a person that looked like this leaving the area around that time that day.

Mike P speaking on Dr Phil(I am paraphrasing)​

Phil:Okay, and I guess based on this [Still Frame Image of Murder Suspect] and on witnesses they came up with a sketch. And um this is the sketch. And this does, and I don’t know maybe it’s just suggestibility, but it does look the picture [Still Frame Image of Murder Suspect]. Um but this [The Sketch] is based on witnesses saying what they saw of a man there at the time right?

MP: [taking the lead from the overlap in response to Dr. Phil’s statements ]That is correct. That is from an eye witness person who saw a person that looked liked this leaving that area around that time that day.
​

Great question Misty Waters ‘why is the sketch so different’ from the recent one?’ Gosh I would like to know that! Because with each passing day the trail grows ever colder.

MOO

I was reading another's theory about just this and I'll share it because it could explain it, just could, not saying it does

They said, what if one of the witnesses for that composite sketch, the first one released was said to be a compilation I believe, what if they are actually the killer posing as just another hiker who came forward, describing himself in all those clothes.

What if the police discounted NSG witness's description, because it didn't match the combined others and it looked just like one of those other witnesses on the trail that day that had come forward? Oh that was so and so they saw, yeah we talked to him. Maybe because of who he was, he was cleared as soon as he came forward?

Something like that had never occured to me so I thought I'd mention it.

 

[moonlessnight]

I would agree that it's quite likely the killer has provided LE with detailed info, maybe a description, to throw LE off base. And they know that now.

I was reading another's theory about just this and I'll share it because it could explain it, just could, not saying it does

They said, what if one of the witnesses for that composite sketch, the first one released was said to be a compilation I believe, what if they are actually the killer posing as just another hiker who came forward, describing himself in all those clothes.

What if the police discounted NSG witness's description, because it didn't match the combined others and it looked just like one of those other witnesses on the trail that day that had come forward? Oh that was so and so they saw, yeah we talked to him. Maybe because of who he was, he was cleared as soon as he came forward?

Something like that had never occured to me so I thought I'd mention it.

 

[sunshineray]

No idea but one thing LE has never said if there are more photos on Libby’s cellphone, never shared by SC. And then there’s the “girl talk” that was recorded on Libby’s audio. But you’re right, if they never left the bridge they must’ve had a reason to remain there for those 23 minutes.

They might have seen there was another hiker starting over and walked a bit up the trail. Maybe they were going to cross back over the bridge and call to be picked up where they were let off? So walk a little father then came back, waiting for the person who was almost crossed over. I know I wouldn't want to be passing others on that bridge if I could help it. By that time they could now see it was the creepy guy and Libby may have taken some video of him to show her Dad or whomever later. They just never thought that creepy guy would be a killer, til it was too late.

 

[janewall]

Regarding my previous post (#374 in this thread), I apologize for a mistake that may have misled others. I wrote that according to LE the girls were murdered "minutes after" Libby posted her photo of Abby on SnapChat at 2:07 pm; actually it was "minutes after" she recorded the released video snippet of BG at 2:30. This mistake became clear to me with the discussion of what the girls were doing for the 23 minutes between the photo and the video clip. The essential point remains the same – in LE's view, BG likely did not spend a long time with them after the images we've seen.

I do wonder if in the 23-minute span between the photo of Abby and the video BG passed them on the bridge – he heading north while they were heading south – then turned around and started following them, raising Libby's hackles and inspiring her to start recording him. We also don't know if she began recording well before the few frames that were released. There may be some other disturbing behavior or verbal exchange in the seconds or minutes before.

ed: grammar policing of myself

 

[k-mac]

I have been thinking he may have came up onto the bridge at the SE end very close to where the girls were and walked past them setting them on high alert [prompting Libby to start the video]. He could have walked a few yards further toward the NW end while making sure he didn't see anyone coming from that end. He already knew the SE end was clear having just arrived from that direction. All he had to do was spin around and move fast toward the girls on the SE end and hustle them down the hill. Maybe he'd already been lurking in the cemetery area just before coming over to the bridge and up the hill on the SE end. I know most everyone assumes he walked the entire length of the bridge from NW to SE...maybe he didn't?

I wonder this too.
imo it would have been likelier that he was hiding at the end of the bridge and suddenly walked past them as they were reaching the end and suddenly turned back around toward them.
I reckon his dna would be all over that bridge end and under it.he lurked there

moo

 

[Deleted member 102539]

What happened in the 23 mins between the pic of Abby and the video of BG?

I'm not tech savvy at all (and often not quite logically thinking too ), therefore maybe my question is verrry stupid: Is it possible, that BG changed time stamps on Libby's phone, so it wouldn't be identifiable later on, which was first: Abby's pic or video of BG? Abby's snapchat pic was sent to a friend, so the time is really 2:07h and confirmed by a person. But what is with the time of recording? Perhaps BG is a genius in changing/mixing/moving the content of a phone? He had time enough for doing something like that (if makeable), because afaik the phone was found the next day only.

 

[SilentRogue]

Regarding the usage of DNA to approximate facial features and characteristics, does anyone know if it is the similar method the 23andme DNA kits use? If so, and if that is where the 2nd sketch came from, I find it very concerning.

I had a 23andme kit done and it's assessment of what I most likely look like is so incredibly inaccurate. I would even say it's the EXACT opposite. I pray that's not an issue in this case.

I'm going to speculate that your feature list was an amalgam of common traits among people with your specific genetic heritage. It was not a description of you based on your genetic profile. They likely dont have this capacity, and certainly wouldn't offer it without an enhanced fee.

Regardless, the second sketch was the product of a witness interview conducted a few days following the homicides. It is not and was not influenced by DNA or genetic profiling.

 

[Sugarcane18]

I'm going to speculate that your feature list was an amalgam of common traits among people with your specific genetic heritage. It was not a description of you based on your genetic profile. They likely dont have this capacity, and certainly wouldn't offer it without an enhanced fee.

Regardless, the second sketch was the product of a witness interview conducted a few days following the homicides. It is not and was not influenced by DNA or genetic profiling.

Makes sense. Thanks for the info!