Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[bradfordsleuth]

Yes it would you are right. That hadn't occurred to me but they could have seen him too going back on the bridge and thought he was leaving. Crossing and recrossing the bridge isn't stalking as such, unless he had made it obvious with threatening voice or gestures in some way. That could also be why they didn't call 911, if they thought he had gone.
Good thoughts.

I seem to recall reading that cell service on the bridge is spotty. I apologize, I have no link but I am certain this has been stated.

Please consider this JMO

 

[susiQ]

Completely agree. Also, as she is under the wing of GH who liaises with LE and is an allowed source on here, I believe LE are ok with this anyway.

I'm prepared to take flack for this but I'll say it anyway.

Yes, KG has the right to do what she thinks is good and right, but I do not believe doing the video was at all wise even with GH and BP in the wings. I won't even get started on him.

She is young and also naive and is perhaps not well informed about what others know to be fact and that alone opens her and the family up to the vicious trolls out there. While she is "addressing rumours", for some it is painfully obvious what is not being addressed and perhaps "white washed" through it. It did nothing to quell the rumours, IMO, and poured fuel on the SM fire. I sincerely question those who encouraged her to do this. Why didn't one of the elder members of her family offer to do this instead. I believe it's because they too are aware of certain facts and they don't want to address them publicly and know some very hard questions will be put to them.

I have very deep sympathy for KG and her grandparents for their great loss. I just don't think doing these "chats" is a good move. JMO/MOO

 

[Jess.Jess]

Question!
Can ANYONE find a link where it quotes officers or shows a video of an official saying that "down the hill" was a demand for the girls to go down the hill?
I have searched and searched and searched. I can't find anything because the new press conference has made it more difficult and is the most popular result when searching anything. The basics get lost, and my brain gets foggy after time about the details. But I was laying in bed one night and suddenly wondered if this was peculation that was believed as being true because it was heavily reported? I can't remember an official specifically stating that he was demanding them down the hill, but I could be wrong.
I guess the detail isn't that important.. but I can't help but wonder/speculate that maybe BG set up the kill site and the way he manipulated 2 victims was by asking them direction or saying something to try to appear as "good guy" who just got lost in the trails and now needs directed back where his car is (or whatever) and ask . "Go down the hill.. and where from there?" (Again theorizing, but something to that effect) and being the nice girls that they are frequently characterized as by loved ones, they went down there to show direct him, help him, etc?

If stated by LE that it was, in fact, a demand for them to go down the hill (since they have suggested to having full audio or possibly the entire attack).. then forget what I said lol. But if not, this would be huge and open more possibilities as to what happened imo.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I'm prepared to take flack for this but I'll say it anyway.

Yes, KG has the right to do what she thinks is good and right, but I do not believe doing the video was at all wise even with GH and BP in the wings. I won't even get started on him.

She is young and also naive and is perhaps not well informed about what others know to be fact and that alone opens her and the family up to the vicious trolls out there. While she is "addressing rumours", for some it is painfully obvious what is not being addressed and perhaps "white washed" through it. It did nothing to quell the rumours, IMO, and poured fuel on the SM fire. I sincerely question those who encouraged her to do this. Why didn't one of the elder members of her family offer to do this instead. I believe it's because they too are aware of certain facts and they don't want to address them publicly and know some very hard questions will be put to them.

I have very deep sympathy for KG and her grandparents for their great loss. I just don't think doing these "chats" is a good move. JMO/MOO

You and I seem to be in the minority on this point, but ICAM.

 

[TL4S]

I'm prepared to take flack for this but I'll say it anyway.

Yes, KG has the right to do what she thinks is good and right, but I do not believe doing the video was at all wise even with GH and BP in the wings. I won't even get started on him.

She is young and also naive and is perhaps not well informed about what others know to be fact and that alone opens her and the family up to the vicious trolls out there. While she is "addressing rumours", for some it is painfully obvious what is not being addressed and perhaps "white washed" through it. It did nothing to quell the rumours, IMO, and poured fuel on the SM fire. I sincerely question those who encouraged her to do this. Why didn't one of the elder members of her family offer to do this instead. I believe it's because they too are aware of certain facts and they don't want to address them publicly and know some very hard questions will be put to them.

I have very deep sympathy for KG and her grandparents for their great loss. I just don't think doing these "chats" is a good move. JMO/MOO

This is just a stupid side thought, but what if the family, or LE, is hoping to lure BG out by the public broadcasts? LE did say they thought he was watching the PC, wanting to know what they know. If somebody says something only BG would know... Yeah, probably a stupid thought.

 

[HockeyMom330]

Okay, here's my newest crazy variant of my other idea.

I can't get past the idea that the girls might not have wanted to be on the bridge with BG, either following him, or with him behind them. So I'm back to considering the girls choosing the woods, but maybe with the idea to hang out just below the bridge until he hopefully crossed back and left.

You can tell from the photo that if you were in the woods below the bridge, when the leaves are off the trees, you're visible from the bridge, especially in pink and tye-dye shirts. So maybe BG was acting weird, walking back across the bridge, but obviously watching them. With him on the bridge, they are virtually trapped.

The girls decide he isn't going to leave them alone to come back up and recross the bridge, so they cross the creek to avoid him. They would be scared, IMO, and wanting to get to their ride.

I also then wonder if once they're across the creek, they can see BG in the woods off the north end of the bridge, heading towards them. At this point they might head towards the cemetery, or whatever, but BG intercepts them, makes them go "down the hill" somewhere nearer the spot they were ultimately found.

In this scenario, BG doesn't really march them anywhere other than very close to the creek and crime scene. Much less time with him "controlling" them. For their last 30 minutes, a lot of that is them knowing they're being stalked? Just a thought...

I enjoy your theories, thanks for posting and giving us new thougths to consider.

The only reason your theory doesn't completely work for me is because is it known that Libby recorded BG on the bridge 60 ft from her (and she was standing just at the end of the bridge on the SE side). She wasn't under the bridge or in the woods, and 60ft is not a long distance. BG was practically on top of the girls at this point, and with no witnesses in sight it is most logical to assume that he whisked them 'down the hill' and deeper into the woods so the crime could unfold.

Sorry to highjack your theory but the only way it works for me is IF: The girls were waiting at the SE end for BG to cross (apparently this is proper etiquette). For some unknown reason they perceive him to be creepy so Libby secretly records him as he is approaching and then puts her phone in her clothing so it still records their audio. He said "Guys" to greet them and then maybe asks the girls if they know where the trail continues and Libby relplies something to the effect of 'the path ends here, there is nowhere to go'. So BG then turns around to re-cross the bridge. The girls are relieved and somewhat embarassed that they feared him but as you propose, they don't want to be on the bridge with him at the same time, either in front or behind him, so they decide to head into the woods and cross the creek so they can get back to the side where their ride would be meeting. But BG enters the woods on the North side after crossing the bridge and intercepts the girls. They try to run towards the cemetary but he catches up with them and pulls a weapon. He then orders them 'down the hill' to the crime scene. Libby's phone would have needed to be recording the whole time to capture BG's words, or she would have had to turn it on again.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

This is just a stupid side thought, but what if the family, or LE, is hoping to lure BG out by the public broadcasts? LE did say they thought he was watching the PC, wanting to know what they know. If somebody says something only BG would know... Yeah, probably a stupid thought.

I think it's a very smart line of thinking.
If it was their strategy, I really hope it worked!

 

[Jess.Jess]

This is just a stupid side thought, but what if the family, or LE, is hoping to lure BG out by the public broadcasts? LE did say they thought he was watching the PC, wanting to know what they know. If somebody says something only BG would know... Yeah, probably a stupid thought.

There is a podcast with hosts that have law enforcement experience/background of some sort and covered the press conference in one of their episodes.
They seem to believe (and sound confident) that it was absolutely to taunt, lure and poke at BG.
Basically saying that the whole thing is a "tactic" of some sort and they had an angle with that press conference.
I'm sure I could find the podcast episode if you were interested in listening to it. It made me think ‍

 

[HockeyMom330]

Question!
Can ANYONE find a link where it quotes officers or shows a video of an official saying that "down the hill" was a demand for the girls to go down the hill?
I have searched and searched and searched. I can't find anything because the new press conference has made it more difficult and is the most popular result when searching anything. The basics get lost, and my brain gets foggy after time about the details. But I was laying in bed one night and suddenly wondered if this was peculation that was believed as being true because it was heavily reported? I can't remember an official specifically stating that he was demanding them down the hill, but I could be wrong.
I guess the detail isn't that important.. but I can't help but wonder/speculate that maybe BG set up the kill site and the way he manipulated 2 victims was by asking them direction or saying something to try to appear as "good guy" who just got lost in the trails and now needs directed back where his car is (or whatever) and ask . "Go down the hill.. and where from there?" (Again theorizing, but something to that effect) and being the nice girls that they are frequently characterized as by loved ones, they went down there to show direct him, help him, etc?

If stated by LE that it was, in fact, a demand for them to go down the hill (since they have suggested to having full audio or possibly the entire attack).. then forget what I said lol. But if not, this would be huge and open more possibilities as to what happened imo.

I think it was in the Still a Mystery program (correct me if I'm wrong) that the audio was transcribed as "Get down the hill", which sounds like a demand to me. This was different that just 'down the hill' that was originally released to the public so may have been a mistake on the the part of the producers.

 

[HockeyMom330]

JMO
I get a sense of deja vu when I recall a specific case from 1995. I can see a few similarities to this case. Again, JMO.

Terry Driver - Wikipedia

In this case that took place in Abbotsford, B.C. in 1995 the killer broke through a hedge and used a baseball bat to control two 16 year-old girls and order them through the bush to a secluded area.

One girl was fortunate enough to survive after being badly beaten and walked herself to a hospital. The other girl was found in a river deceased that day after experiencing a brutal attack.

For months, the killer taunted LE and made phone calls to them identifying himself as the killer, used a police scanner to monitor his calls, attended the funeral of the girl he killed and even stole her tombstone.

Ultimately, a broadcast recording of the telephone calls in which the killers brother recognized his voice (his mother concurred) and his thumbprint on a tape is what led to his arrest.

JMO, but I believe the killer in the Delphi case could also have taunted LE and instigated a sharp turn in this case.

I believe that ultimately, social media is going to factor in with some of the 'mistakes' the killer made.

I do not believe that family is involved in any way at all with what happened.


JMO

Thanks for reminding me of this case. I lived very close to Abbotford at the time, so had a vested interest. It would be interesting to know if BG shares any of the same traits/behaviours as Terry Driver. Its not often that an attacker will take on two teenagers at the same time. TD didn't even have a gun.

 

[TL4S]

I enjoy your theories, thanks for posting and giving us new thougths to consider.

The only reason your theory doesn't completely work for me is because is it known that Libby recorded BG on the bridge 60 ft from her (and she was standing just at the end of the bridge on the SE side). She wasn't under the bridge or in the woods, and 60ft is not a long distance. BG was practically on top of the girls at this point, and with no witnesses in sight it is most logical to assume that he whisked them 'down the hill' and deeper into the woods so the crime could unfold.

Sorry to highjack your theory but the only way it works for me is IF: The girls were waiting at the SE end for BG to cross (apparently this is proper etiquette). For some unknown reason they perceive him to be creepy so Libby secretly records him as he is approaching and then puts her phone in her clothing so it still records their audio. He said "Guys" to greet them and then maybe asks the girls if they know where the trail continues and Libby relplies something to the effect of 'the path ends here, there is nowhere to go'. So BG then turns around to re-cross the bridge. The girls are relieved and somewhat embarassed that they feared him but as you propose, they don't want to be on the bridge with him at the same time, either in front or behind him, so they decide to head into the woods and cross the creek so they can get back to the side where their ride would be meeting. But BG enters the woods on the North side after crossing the bridge and intercepts the girls. They try to run towards the cemetary but he catches up with them and pulls a weapon. He then orders them 'down the hill' to the crime scene. Libby's phone would have needed to be recording the whole time to capture BG's words, or she would have had to turn it on again.

Hijack all you want! I enjoy your ideas, as well!

I think what you say makes a lot of sense, too.

 

[susiQ]

This is just a stupid side thought, but what if the family, or LE, is hoping to lure BG out by the public broadcasts? LE did say they thought he was watching the PC, wanting to know what they know. If somebody says something only BG would know... Yeah, probably a stupid thought.

Anything is possible, but if that's what they were hoping for to move this investigation along, it's a sorry state of affairs. Again, JMO.

 

[TL4S]

Anything is possible, but if that's what they were hoping for to move this investigation along, it's a sorry state of affairs. Again, JMO.

Ha, yes, I have to agree with you there!

 

[Jess.Jess]

I think it was in the Still a Mystery program (correct me if I'm wrong) that the audio was transcribed as "Get down the hill", which sounds like a demand to me. This was different that just 'down the hill' that was originally released to the public so may have been a mistake on the the part of the producers.

I don't know why this detail bothers me so badly! But I think it's because everyone reports on this story SAYING that he's telling them or demanding them down the hill and that detail may not even be true. Just being retold over and over again as if it is factual information (which, again, maybe it is) but Only LE would know that.

 

[MistyWaters]

It's from Episode 10 of the Renner series of interviews : Virtually a Detective: Case #101 Delphi.


@1m.17s

Renner : Is the attack itself on the recording?

Leazenby: Err...No.

I notice Renner’s question assumes an attack took place. An attack infers some sort of violent, physical interaction occurring on the part of the perpetrator. While I know it’s not a popular theory, Leanenby’s response is appropriate if the victims were shot. Whether or not the sound of gunshots was recorded, that doesn’t constitute an “attack itself”.

Even if SA was a motivation or if clothing was indeed found in the creek, one person controlling two live victims at once involves very high risk. A coward might be inclined to kill first to silence his victims. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't know why this detail bothers me so badly! But I think it's because everyone reports on this story SAYING that he's telling them or demanding them down the hill and that detail may not even be true. Just being retold over and over again as if it is factual information (which, again, maybe it is) but Only LE would know that.

I agree. LE has repeatedly stated the purpose of the release of the audio was so somebody might identify the voice and provide that “one tip” they’re looking for.

LE is not interested in the general public attempting to figure out how the crime occurred, they only want to know who’s responsible. Therefore no explanation has been offered with the limited information that’s been released.

 

[TL4S]

I enjoy your theories, thanks for posting and giving us new thougths to consider.

The only reason your theory doesn't completely work for me is because is it known that Libby recorded BG on the bridge 60 ft from her (and she was standing just at the end of the bridge on the SE side). She wasn't under the bridge or in the woods, and 60ft is not a long distance. BG was practically on top of the girls at this point, and with no witnesses in sight it is most logical to assume that he whisked them 'down the hill' and deeper into the woods so the crime could unfold.

Sorry to highjack your theory but the only way it works for me is IF: The girls were waiting at the SE end for BG to cross (apparently this is proper etiquette). For some unknown reason they perceive him to be creepy so Libby secretly records him as he is approaching and then puts her phone in her clothing so it still records their audio. He said "Guys" to greet them and then maybe asks the girls if they know where the trail continues and Libby relplies something to the effect of 'the path ends here, there is nowhere to go'. So BG then turns around to re-cross the bridge. The girls are relieved and somewhat embarassed that they feared him but as you propose, they don't want to be on the bridge with him at the same time, either in front or behind him, so they decide to head into the woods and cross the creek so they can get back to the side where their ride would be meeting. But BG enters the woods on the North side after crossing the bridge and intercepts the girls. They try to run towards the cemetary but he catches up with them and pulls a weapon. He then orders them 'down the hill' to the crime scene. Libby's phone would have needed to be recording the whole time to capture BG's words, or she would have had to turn it on again.

Didn't BP say something about not being able to tell if the girls were scared when they were talking about there being nowhere to go, because there wasn't anything else to really hear around that time? If BG's voice was there, asking where to go, maybe BP wouldn't have stated it that way? Dang, I can't remember where that BP link is from.

 

[raja]

Following along. Going on the theory being discussed. Could the girls have crossed the creek to get to one of their homes. Didn't Abbey live close by?

 

[crazychris]

I seem to recall reading that cell service on the bridge is spotty. I apologize, I have no link but I am certain this has been stated.

Please consider this JMO

I would have thought it may be spotty and intermittent anywhere on those trails and in those woods. Have we ever heard whether there was good reception there?

 

[neesaki]

I wasn't being sarcastic. I was agreeing, sorry if it came off a bit short. Yes, we are meant to believe it was banter about song lyrics , joking around about sex with a 14 yo with one of the two in the convo being a LEO as well. Joking about statutory rape in other words. It makes me mad.

I think that’s new to me, which one is the LEO? TIA