Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[Spartygirl]

So it wasn't just family and friends looking overnight. I still can't believe police didn't keep up the search through the night. If I was a parent of that missing child I would have felt so abandoned by LE and so grateful to those strangers. In retrospect, it now makes the crime scene contaminated by people the police now probably can't identify.

Yeah, Unfortunately, I am afraid the area and the CS were contaminated by searchers and others that were there that day.

 

[Boxer]

Yeah, Unfortunately, I am afraid the area and the CS were contaminated by searchers and others that were there that day.

MOO I don't believe they searched east of the bridge that night, though possibly someone walked the edge of the field between Ron Logans house and the back of the cemetery then on west to the north end of the bridge.

 

[PaulaDC]

I was just reading about a cold case. Belle in the Well. It mentioned how hard it was to identify this woman. They were using DNA.

"The identification then came to a standstill because of heavy intermarriage among families in the area making immediate relatives challenging."
"This effort took 14 months, 30+ volunteers, that worked thousands of hours and reviewed 40,000 individuals in family trees."
It's incredibly challenging.

 

[mtnlites]

Yeah, Unfortunately, I am afraid the area and the CS were contaminated by searchers and others that were there that day.

And possibly by ones who were not there that day...I am certain they have DNA, but not real confident on where it came from. A discarded Coke can, cigerette butt, etc could have been left there, or even blown there, the morning of the 13th or even the day before and just had the unfortunate luck of being within a few feet/inches from their bodies. In the Dena Dean murder case they retrieved DNA from ciggerette butts on the ground. They most likely belonged to one of the killers, but there still hasn't been an arrest. And that was in 1998. Evidence taken from their bodies is one thing, but if they're relying on something taken from the ground...yeah, that concerns me.

I have no idea if searchers were real close to the bodies that night or not. I know some were at the cemetery, but I don't know how far down they got. Still, I can vouch for the darknes and how the unevenness of the land could make it easy to miss them. Missing people's bodies are often discovered in places that have been previously searched, and it's out of bad luck a lot of times. My husband and his crew overlooked a body in a nearby state park a few months ago. They combed that area twice and finally found the guy on the third try. His body hadn't been moved. There was no rational explanation for it, it just seems to happen.

 

[JnRyan]

FBI expanding billboards for tips in Indiana teens’ killings

So the FBI billboards have that time. And I used to see one about 3 weeks later driving to work, but I didn't remember the time being on there.

 

[JnRyan]

It was a little windy and the area is so hilly that sound doesn't carry that well. People talk to their friends, chat on the phone, get lost in thought, listen to music through their earbuds...it's easy enough to block out the rest of the world. If someone heard leaves moving would that have registered as suspicious? Probably not to me. I'm in a wooded park and hear the rustling leaves I'm probably going to just assume someone's walking around like me-not thst a double homicide is about to take place. And that's if I hear them or register the sound in my mind at all.

Personally, I think they were probably too scared to scream. Being frozen with fear is a very real thing. Create enough fear in them and you wouldn't need a gag. Simply playing to their youth, fear, and loyalty may have been enough.

From being in the woods hunting early in the morning or in the evenings playing capture the flag in boy scouts when everything is still it is amazing from how far away you can hear someone talking. But bring up the wind with the noise it makes through the trees and the leaves on the ground and you have a different situation entirely. Then throw in those hills and it just gets worse. Add in the fact that most in rural settings wouldn't pay any attention to a couple of gun shots as it could be someone shooting a groundhog or other varmint. Near a place frequented by teenagers I MAY not pay attention to a scream as it might be kids at play. If such a scream were sudden and short the wind and hills might make it difficult to tell exactly where it came from. Then you bring up trail users listening to music with earbuds. (I don't agree with that practice while running or mountain biking as you lose situational awareness. It is illegal to do it while riding a bicycle on roads in some states for just reason.)

 

[Jax49]

So the FBI billboards have that time. And I used to see one about 3 weeks later driving to work, but I didn't remember the time being on there.

Some of the billboards had the time, but from what I remember most didn't. moo

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Some of the billboards had the time, but from what I remember most didn't. moo

I have not seen the time of the video published in any msm articles that I can recall.

@Jax49, you seem to be the master of linking up some of these topics....do you have anything handy that states the time of the video?

JMO

 

[Michigan]

I can’t keep from thinking the voice does not sound like someone young. It seems like someone middle aged. I can’t think of a 18 - 27 year old with a voice like that. It seems older to me.
MOO

 

[Boxer]

I have always been a bit annoyed over LE’s statement that they stopped looking because of the dark and the terrain and that they felt the girls weren’t in any danger. What? OK I can understand not thinking they were murdered, but how could you not think they were in danger. LE knew this when they called off the search; the trails had been walked by numerous people calling out for the girls for hours with no response. If they were hurt or lost in that relatively small area they certainly would have heard people calling, the families had called all the girls’ friends to see if they were there or had information, it was going to be cold that night and the girls did not have heavy coats on. So how in the world you could look at that information and situation and determine they’re not in danger escapes me. It is, of course, a moot point since if they had kept searching and found the girls overnight they would have found them dead, but shocking to me that LE would have thought like that.

MOO they thought the girls went somewhere else without telling parents.

 

[Cutiekitty]

From being in the woods hunting early in the morning or in the evenings playing capture the flag in boy scouts when everything is still it is amazing from how far away you can hear someone talking. But bring up the wind with the noise it makes through the trees and the leaves on the ground and you have a different situation entirely. Then throw in those hills and it just gets worse. Add in the fact that most in rural settings wouldn't pay any attention to a couple of gun shots as it could be someone shooting a groundhog or other varmint. Near a place frequented by teenagers I MAY not pay attention to a scream as it might be kids at play. If such a scream were sudden and short the wind and hills might make it difficult to tell exactly where it came from. Then you bring up trail users listening to music with earbuds. (I don't agree with that practice while running or mountain biking as you lose situational awareness. It is illegal to do it while riding a bicycle on roads in some states for just reason.)

Just putting this out there...where I live it is very hilly. There are times when I can stand in my front yard and hear concerts from the amphitheater about 6 miles away as a crow flies. They are clear as day. Go a mile down the road and you can’t hear a thing. Sound can definitely be muted or amplified by geography.

 

[mtnlites]

I can’t keep from thinking the voice does not sound like someone young. It seems like someone middle aged. I can’t think of a 18 - 27 year old with a voice like that. It seems older to me.
MOO

My 12 yo son sounds like a middle-aged smoker with emphesema. He is also 5'10", exactly 1 foot taller than me. I can no longer judge ageby voice or height.

 

[Cutiekitty]

MOO they thought the girls went somewhere else without telling parents.

I saw an interview (I can’t find it, but it was with the sheriff and I think what I saw was a FB post) and he stated exactly that.

 

[Jax49]

I have not seen the time of the video published in any msm articles that I can recall.

@Jax49, you seem to be the master of linking up some of these topics....do you have anything handy that states the time of the video?

JMO

The billboard is shown (with last seen 2:30) in the video at this link. About the 1:40 mark.

FBI expanding billboards for tips in Indiana teens’ killings

 

[Rossymom]

Questions about the Purdue classes:

How many students were in each class? 10? 25? 50 or more?
In addition to the class Libby took, what other classes and on what topics were offered?
Who were the instructors? Purdue professors? Graduate students? Upperclassmen at Purdue ? Outside people who had a background in that particular topic?
Were the classes sanctioned by Purdue or was Purdue simply providing the classrooms/facilities?
Could any middle or high school student sign up, or were there specific requirements to take classes? ( ie GPA, student in the gifted and talented program at their high school, college-bound students, etc.)
Were the classes just for fun or did middle and high school students earn credits towards high school graduation by taking them? Did high school student earn any college credit for taking a class?
Were middle and high school students combined in the same class, or were there specific age divisions? The same class being offered, but one group was middle school students only and a different classroom had the high school students only, each with different instructors?

Our daughter attended a Super Saturday class at Purdue when she was in 5th grade. She received a letter from Purdue with all of the different choices she had in classes to take. This letter went to all students in her elementary that were in our gifted and talented program. She chose an art class. It was led by PU students and there was one adult instructor in her class. I do not know how many students were in the class, but I remember that they broke into groups with one college student having their own group. It was expensive too. Purdue offers many classes during the summer too. Many for little kids on bugs and weather.
I still snicker, because our daughter ended up going to PU's rival (Indiana University).

 

[Imvp2]

I have always been a bit annoyed over LE’s statement that they stopped looking because of the dark and the terrain and that they felt the girls weren’t in any danger. What? OK I can understand not thinking they were murdered, but how could you not think they were in danger. LE knew this when they called off the search; the trails had been walked by numerous people calling out for the girls for hours with no response. If they were hurt or lost in that relatively small area they certainly would have heard people calling, the families had called all the girls’ friends to see if they were there or had information, it was going to be cold that night and the girls did not have heavy coats on. So how in the world you could look at that information and situation and determine they’re not in danger escapes me. It is, of course, a moot point since if they had kept searching and found the girls overnight they would have found them dead, but shocking to me that LE would have thought like that.

This has always bothered me too. Who convinced them to stop? They were two young girls without many resources - no car no credit card, etc. Just kids missing, with a planned pick up time, and on seemingly good terms with their parents/guardians.
I just don't understand who could have or would have convinced LE that the girls weren't in any danger.
MOO

 

[PaulaDC]

This has always bothered me too. Who convinced them to stop? They were two young girls without many resources - no car no credit card, etc. Just kids missing, with a planned pick up time, and on seemingly good terms with their parents/guardians.
I just don't understand who could have or would have convinced LE that the girls weren't in any danger.
MOO

"Family called from Delphi to see if Libby had come to Flora and if we had seen her' he said. 'The first thing on our minds was that she might have ran away, maybe she was trying to get to her mom's [in Kentucky]."

'"don't know – a 14-year-old girl, she could have had an argument. Things like that go through your mind."

'"maybe Abby got into a fight with someone and they were hiding out at her 18-year-old brother's house? "

'And then they'll get tired and come back tomorrow morning or they'll call. Something like that.'
Grandfather of one of murdered Indiana teens speaks out | Daily Mail Online

 

[mtnlites]

This has always bothered me too. Who convinced them to stop? They were two young girls without many resources - no car no credit card, etc. Just kids missing, with a planned pick up time, and on seemingly good terms with their parents/guardians.
I just don't understand who could have or would have convinced LE that the girls weren't in any danger.
MOO

I think some of this may be attributed to some small town optimism. (Or perhaps even naivete.) At that point nobody thought they were dead. They were probably feeling pretty optimistic that the girls were okay. They thought they may have been injured in the park, but when after several hours the search yielded no results IMO they then concluded that the girls simply weren't there. Protocol SAR in my region is to consider the safety of the searchers. SAR people are wonderful, and you have to force some of them to stop, but they have families as well. I have sat up many a night worrying about my husband. I believe they reached a point where the searchers' safety was at risk so "officially" the search was called off. That doesn't mean people stopped looking.

Two little girls don't get murdered every day in Delphi. There is usually another explanation: went off with friends and got stranded, going someplace where they're not meant to be, staying out too late and are now worried they'll get in trouble...all of those are better considerations than homicide. If my child went missing I'd HOPE it was one of those things. Even really "good" kids with no prior history can make poor choices. My kids are totally awesome-polite, smart, good grades, good listeners, etc. And yet sometimes they'll do something out of left field and I'm like "Who ARE you?" These are children we're talking about, as smart as they are, there is still some developing to do.

IMO once they didn't find them in the park then there were other avenues to check: hospitals, friends' houses, social media accounts, cell phone pings and records, even other police depts in case there was an accident. Point being, when the girls were not found in the park, assumption was probably made that they were no longer in it. It wasn't as though LE was like, "Well, it's too dark, let's all go home and play Candy Crush. They're probably fine." There are many things to be done when a child goes missing; looking in the immediate area is just one part of it.

Finding them on the evening of the 13th rather than the 14th would probably not have made a difference. LE has said that the crime was quick. There IS a chance, though that continuing on could have contaminated a crime scene if there was one. At that point in time, though, I don't think anyone (including the families) thought a crime had been committed.

 

[katydid23]

And possibly by ones who were not there that day...I am certain they have DNA, but not real confident on where it came from. A discarded Coke can, cigerette butt, etc could have been left there, or even blown there, the morning of the 13th or even the day before and just had the unfortunate luck of being within a few feet/inches from their bodies. In the Dena Dean murder case they retrieved DNA from ciggerette butts on the ground. They most likely belonged to one of the killers, but there still hasn't been an arrest. And that was in 1998. Evidence taken from their bodies is one thing, but if they're relying on something taken from the ground...yeah, that concerns me.

I have no idea if searchers were real close to the bodies that night or not. I know some were at the cemetery, but I don't know how far down they got. Still, I can vouch for the darknes and how the unevenness of the land could make it easy to miss them. Missing people's bodies are often discovered in places that have been previously searched, and it's out of bad luck a lot of times. My husband and his crew overlooked a body in a nearby state park a few months ago. They combed that area twice and finally found the guy on the third try. His body hadn't been moved. There was no rational explanation for it, it just seems to happen.

And that first night, they were looking for 'living' girls, that were lost or injured, or drunk or something. They did not believe, at that early phase of the search, that they were looking for 2 murdered young girls.

ETA: Snap, MtnLites....just saw your post ....great minds think alike...

 

[ZoriahNZ]

Questions about the Purdue classes:

How many students were in each class? 10? 25? 50 or more?
In addition to the class Libby took, what other classes and on what topics were offered?
Who were the instructors? Purdue professors? Graduate students? Upperclassmen at Purdue ? Outside people who had a background in that particular topic?
Were the classes sanctioned by Purdue or was Purdue simply providing the classrooms/facilities?
Could any middle or high school student sign up, or were there specific requirements to take classes? ( ie GPA, student in the gifted and talented program at their high school, college-bound students, etc.)
Were the classes just for fun or did middle and high school students earn credits towards high school graduation by taking them? Did high school student earn any college credit for taking a class?
Were middle and high school students combined in the same class, or were there specific age divisions? The same class being offered, but one group was middle school students only and a different classroom had the high school students only, each with different instructors?

As has been posted before but can get lost in the threads: Libby's sister Kelsi and her grandmother Becky Patty have stated that Libby attended Super Saturday classes, which were one of the programs set up for gifted/talented students from the surrounding area. This is run by GERI at Purdue. Here is a link:

Youth Programs | GERI | Purdue University College of Education

But you can also google search for brochures etc which go into more detail the kind of classes offered. Libby did mini med one year and Kelsi said (during a YT live) she did some kind of forensics class more recently where they dissected owl pellets. At the website above you can find a staff directory for GERI. However, I'm not sure how you'd find out who exactly was staffing/assisting the Super Saturdays around 2016/2017.