Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #111

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Question: If siblings are very similar in their optics, would their DNA show more similarity than in case, when the siblings look very different?
Charlot123? :)
What about an uncle and a nephew? How similar are their DNA?
I want an arrest as soon as possible - can't stand my avatar any longer (my suspect is looking the same)! :(
I guess you could replace it with a pic of a real person. ;-)
 
Longtime lurker here, I think this is my first post. I spend quite a bit of time researching this case over at Reddit, along with the Missy Bevers case out in Texas. I concur with just about everything I see in this post.And I am inclined to add that if we stick to the theory of Occam's Razor we may just figure things out once and for all.

I don't believe BG wore a mask, I don't believe that he's related in any way to any other unsolved murders, although I do believe the odds that he may have/already has re-offended are high. Although I've spent some time at Reddit reading about the case, there is one piece of the puzzle that I am not clear on and maybe someone can help me. Did Abby and Libby have brothers that were high school age at the time of the crimes? And did they have friends in their age group who spent time at the family homes? I ask because this whole time that I've been thinking about the case I keep getting the feeling that it's someone very close to the families. Close enough to have had access to info re the girls' movements that day. One could argue that if BG was a close family friend he would be identified via the cell phone recordings. Not necessarily. Back in the 70's when BTK killed 4 members of the Otero family, Shirley Vian, and Nancy Fox, local news outlets played a tape of BTK's voice over and over and over. No one recognized him and he was a person who held job positions dealing with the public. His own family didn't even recognize hime. So, so much for that.

I think there is a very simple, right in front of our faces answer to this mystery. " Hiding in plain sight " indeed. I'd be very curious to know who amongst the girls family and friends knew they would be at the bridge that day. The killer most certainly had to know, because IMO this was a targeted crime. Nothing was happenstance.

Thanks for listening. I love this site - so many interesting and brilliant minds at work here!
Welcome Jeeps. Great first post. The girls did have older step or adopted brothers and Libby has an older sister and two younger half sisters. The extended family is large on Libby's side and friends following her SC would also be aware so the people who knew would be a large number IMO. Although it appeared a spur of the moment decision to go to the bridge, they were up late the night before and could have shared plans online. Also, Abby had a FB account and a boyfriend from another school that her mother was unaware of (source - James Renner interview). Pinning down their contacts has been a large part of the investigation IMO.
AJMO
 
Welcome Jeeps. Great first post. The girls did have older step or adopted brothers and Libby has an older sister and two younger half sisters. The extended family is large on Libby's side and friends following her SC would also be aware so the people who knew would be a large number IMO. Although it appeared a spur of the moment decision to go to the bridge, they were up late the night before and could have shared plans online. Also, Abby had a FB account and a boyfriend from another school that her mother was unaware of (source - James Renner interview). Pinning down their contacts has been a large part of the investigation IMO.
AJMO
I agree that pinning down their contacts would have been among one of the first things LE would do. This may be what the statement about "on to something early on" meant.
 
Longtime lurker here, I think this is my first post. I spend quite a bit of time researching this case over at Reddit, along with the Missy Bevers case out in Texas. I concur with just about everything I see in this post.And I am inclined to add that if we stick to the theory of Occam's Razor we may just figure things out once and for all.

I don't believe BG wore a mask, I don't believe that he's related in any way to any other unsolved murders, although I do believe the odds that he may have/already has re-offended are high. Although I've spent some time at Reddit reading about the case, there is one piece of the puzzle that I am not clear on and maybe someone can help me. Did Abby and Libby have brothers that were high school age at the time of the crimes? And did they have friends in their age group who spent time at the family homes? I ask because this whole time that I've been thinking about the case I keep getting the feeling that it's someone very close to the families. Close enough to have had access to info re the girls' movements that day. One could argue that if BG was a close family friend he would be identified via the cell phone recordings. Not necessarily. Back in the 70's when BTK killed 4 members of the Otero family, Shirley Vian, and Nancy Fox, local news outlets played a tape of BTK's voice over and over and over. No one recognized him and he was a person who held job positions dealing with the public. His own family didn't even recognize hime. So, so much for that.

I think there is a very simple, right in front of our faces answer to this mystery. " Hiding in plain sight " indeed. I'd be very curious to know who amongst the girls family and friends knew they would be at the bridge that day. The killer most certainly had to know, because IMO this was a targeted crime. Nothing was happenstance.

Thanks for listening. I love this site - so many interesting and brilliant minds at work here!
Jeeps- I believe a bunch of kids slept over at Libby's house shortly before murders and when reading that thought it was guys but have not been able to find where I saw that.
 
Thank you!
And: yes, I meant "looks". ;)
Thanks! I am a foreigner, it is interesting to notice how English
What about an uncle and a nephew? How similar are their DNA?

Usually it would be 25%, but there are more variations here. Let me pull out a chart.

There is a chart here, but also, a good explanation why we share 50% of the DNA with siblings but may look and behave differently. They use cards as an example; I always thought of dices. They have a chart at the end. It is about 25% between an uncle and a nephew, plus/minus.

Understanding Genetics

ETA: just to explain, it is all related to meiosis. Meiosis is the process of forming sex cells, gametes. Two things contribute into the genetic variability, one, independent assortment. And the other one, my beloved crossing over.

Meiosis - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chromosomal crossover - Wikipedia

Hence, no sex cell is identical. And while we share 50% with our siblings and approximately 25% with aunt/uncle, what we share is amazingly different.
 
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I think the “twist” is that the perp was caught on camera. That’s rare.

BBM - I’ve been thinking about this a lot. How rare is it actually? I can think of quite a few homicides where the perp was caught on camera. Ive also seen plenty of news reports showing video of burglars, home invaders and shoplifters too. The prevalence of cameras on businesses, homes, vehicles, and smart phones actually increases the odds of a criminal getting caught on camera. Might be rare in rural Indiana though.

Not trashing your post. Just thinking out loud and wondering about the “twist” comment.
 
I’ve always thought the mention of The Shack was very intentional, but I can’t figure out why.
IMO Carter was appealing to someone with an educated intellect. Using innuendo and suggesting a book/movie as he did, leads me to believe the person is educated beyond high school. Carter asked what the people around him will think when his identity is revealed [not Carter's exact words but that was his general question]. I would take that to mean that the person that LE suspects likely isn't a derelict or a frequent flyer in and out of the prison system or half way houses. Instead I am thinking the person likely has a good job, is in a position of authority/respect within the community and is a wolf in sheep's clothing. A true snake slithering around unsuspected and professing to be concerned, worried, horrified by the murders all the while knowing he is duping everyone and he thinks he got away with it. Carter looked to me to be angry, almost incensed that LE had been "played" by this killer. I think when the identity of BG is revealed, the community will be sickened by how close this guy actually was to the situation.
 
Thanks! I am a foreigner, it is interesting to notice how English


Usually it would be 25%, but there are more variations here. Let me pull out a chart.

There is a chart here, but also, a good explanation why we share 50% of the DNA with siblings but may look and behave differently. They use cards as an example; I always thought of dices. They have a chart at the end. It is about 25% between an uncle and a nephew, plus/minus.

Understanding Genetics
Thank you Charlot123! This makes it easy to understand. I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes :)
 
BBM - I’ve been thinking about this a lot. How rare is it actually? I can think of quite a few homicides where the perp was caught on camera. Ive also seen plenty of news reports showing video of burglars, home invaders and shoplifters too. The prevalence of cameras on businesses, homes, vehicles, and smart phones actually increases the odds of a criminal getting caught on camera. Might be rare in rural Indiana though.

Not trashing your post. Just thinking out loud and wondering about the “twist” comment.
I think it’s rare that the victim catches the perp on her camera minutes before the crime takes place. Not a surveillance of the perp walking to or from etc. Actual video from the victim of the perp minutes before the crime. That’s a twist IMO.

It’s possible something else was meant by “twist”, but I think the video is a completely reasonable explanation. I think at the point of the interview where they said there was a twist (very early on), LE thought this video would catch the perp quickly.
 
IMO Carter was appealing to someone Carter looked to me to be angry, almost incensed that LE had been "played" by this killer. I think when the identity of BG is revealed, the community will be sickened by how close this guy actually was to the situation.

This is exactly the feeling I had. To me he looked flipping fuming or st least thats the vibe I sensed

MingyMoo
 
Thank you Charlot123! This makes it easy to understand. I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes :)

We all are when it comes to genetics. I am in awe of the people who were at its origin. BTW, many women contributed, but few were awarded Nobel Prizes, and they were as deserving as the men they worked with.
 
IMO Carter was appealing to someone with an educated intellect. Using innuendo and suggesting a book/movie as he did, leads me to believe the person is educated beyond high school. Carter asked what the people around him will think when his identity is revealed [not Carter's exact words but that was his general question]. I would take that to mean that the person that LE suspects likely isn't a derelict or a frequent flyer in and out of the prison system or half way houses. Instead I am thinking the person likely has a good job, is in a position of authority/respect within the community and is a wolf in sheep's clothing. A true snake slithering around unsuspected and professing to be concerned, worried, horrified by the murders all the while knowing he is duping everyone and he thinks he got away with it. Carter looked to me to be angry, almost incensed that LE had been "played" by this killer. I think when the identity of BG is revealed, the community will be sickened by how close this guy actually was to the situation.

Yes, it all makes sense if Carter is right about the POI. But considering how many people were POIs in the Golden State Killer Case, he may be wrong, too.

ETA: Carter is always “emotional”, I stopped paying attention to it, some people are just like it.
 
IMO Carter was appealing to someone with an educated intellect. Using innuendo and suggesting a book/movie as he did, leads me to believe the person is educated beyond high school. Carter asked what the people around him will think when his identity is revealed [not Carter's exact words but that was his general question]. I would take that to mean that the person that LE suspects likely isn't a derelict or a frequent flyer in and out of the prison system or half way houses. Instead I am thinking the person likely has a good job, is in a position of authority/respect within the community and is a wolf in sheep's clothing. A true snake slithering around unsuspected and professing to be concerned, worried, horrified by the murders all the while knowing he is duping everyone and he thinks he got away with it. Carter looked to me to be angry, almost incensed that LE had been "played" by this killer. I think when the identity of BG is revealed, the community will be sickened by how close this guy actually was to the situation.
At this point all we can hope for is that they can muster enough solid evidence to proceed to an arrest that will lead to a conviction. I can't say whether or not the killer is respected by the entire community, but I'm speculating he is "known" and not in a negative way to the families and community. I take from DC's words in the PC, about giving the families time to digest this new information and change in investigative strategy, to mean it was a bit of a shock to them, the families, to accept LE believe it is someone close to them, in plain sight, and not some random killer.

All just my opinion.
 
IMO Carter was appealing to someone with an educated intellect. Using innuendo and suggesting a book/movie as he did, leads me to believe the person is educated beyond high school. Carter asked what the people around him will think when his identity is revealed [not Carter's exact words but that was his general question]. I would take that to mean that the person that LE suspects likely isn't a derelict or a frequent flyer in and out of the prison system or half way houses. Instead I am thinking the person likely has a good job, is in a position of authority/respect within the community and is a wolf in sheep's clothing. A true snake slithering around unsuspected and professing to be concerned, worried, horrified by the murders all the while knowing he is duping everyone and he thinks he got away with it. Carter looked to me to be angry, almost incensed that LE had been "played" by this killer. I think when the identity of BG is revealed, the community will be sickened by how close this guy actually was to the situation.

I agree with you, about Carters message. His demeanor and words was not those of posse leader after bad man "out there" but of being tricked and seething about it.
 
Welcome Jeeps. Great first post. The girls did have older step or adopted brothers and Libby has an older sister and two younger half sisters. The extended family is large on Libby's side and friends following her SC would also be aware so the people who knew would be a large number IMO. Although it appeared a spur of the moment decision to go to the bridge, they were up late the night before and could have shared plans online. Also, Abby had a FB account and a boyfriend from another school that her mother was unaware of (source - James Renner interview). Pinning down their contacts has been a large part of the investigation IMO.
AJMO
Hi Tresir, thank you for the welcome. I checked out the link in your sig line. Nicole Bowen, tortured and murdered by 5 people in the Delphi/Lafayette area this past April, her body left in a hunting shack. If my mind hasn't completely failed me this would have been just before the April presser with Carter. Correct?
 
With recent developments, there's so much racing through my head. I think I've turfed my POI to the curb, not that he wasn't capable and there are connections, lots of them, but he doesn't fit the PC. Someone else is a better "fit". Yet, my first despicable POI is about to be nailed with yet another murder, if by all accounts the family of the victim can be believed, and I feel they are credible. The murder took place a few weeks before my previous POI murdered someone else. It's been 5 plus months since the first murder that he has yet to be charged for (anxiously awaiting the day). It's only been 4 plus months since the April PC in this case, and DC said, "Be patient with us. Please, we are just beginning, we are just NOW beginning." (emphasis mine) It takes time to build a solid case, one that will lead to conviction. No second chances, gotta do it right the first time. They were onto something "early on" and "you made mistakes," and "we have a witness." Maybe that was the problem, they only have ONE witness that saw something that directly relates to BG. Also, possible conflicting or partial DNA. DNA that can be explained away by a good defence attorney. They need that "one" tip that will seal it for them. Maybe his alibi has come into question, someone no longer willing to cover for him? Just random thoughts.
ed:to make sense :)
 
BBM - I’ve been thinking about this a lot. How rare is it actually? I can think of quite a few homicides where the perp was caught on camera. Ive also seen plenty of news reports showing video of burglars, home invaders and shoplifters too. The prevalence of cameras on businesses, homes, vehicles, and smart phones actually increases the odds of a criminal getting caught on camera. Might be rare in rural Indiana though.

Not trashing your post. Just thinking out loud and wondering about the “twist” comment.
The perp on camera is not unusual, but the perp caught on the murder victim's camera is very unusual. Initially LE did not state how the pic was captured and many thought it was a trail camera until it was revealed it was Libby herself who captured it. This was the twist that Leazenby mentioned IMO.
 
Hi Tresir, thank you for the welcome. I checked out the link in your sig line. Nicole Bowen, tortured and murdered by 5 people in the Delphi/Lafayette area this past April, her body left in a hunting shack. If my mind hasn't completely failed me this would have been just before the April presser with Carter. Correct?
That is correct. I hope you take time to check that thread out. It isn't very long.
 
With recent developments, there's so much racing through my head. I think I've turfed my POI to the curb, not that he wasn't capable and there are connections, lots of them, but he doesn't fit the PC. Someone else is a better "fit". Yet, my first despicable POI is about to be nailed with yet another murder, if by all accounts the family of the victim can be believed, and I feel they are credible. The murder took place a few weeks before my previous POI murdered someone else. It's been 5 plus months since the first murder that he has yet to be charged for (anxiously awaiting the day). It's only been 4 plus months since the April PC in this case, and DC said, "Be patient with us. Please, we are just beginning, we are just NOW beginning." (emphasis mine) It takes time to build a solid case, one that will lead to conviction. No second chances, gotta do it right the first time. They were onto something "early on" and "you made mistakes," and "we have a witness." Maybe that was the problem, they only have ONE witness that saw something that directly relates to BG. Also, possible conflicting or partial DNA. DNA that can be explained away by a good defence attorney. They need that "one" tip that will seal it for them. Maybe his alibi has come into question, someone no longer willing to cover for him? Just random thoughts.
ed:to make sense :)
And it does make sense. Keeping an eye on this too.
 
Thanks! I am a foreigner, it is interesting to notice how English


Usually it would be 25%, but there are more variations here. Let me pull out a chart.

There is a chart here, but also, a good explanation why we share 50% of the DNA with siblings but may look and behave differently. They use cards as an example; I always thought of dices. They have a chart at the end. It is about 25% between an uncle and a nephew, plus/minus.

Understanding Genetics

ETA: just to explain, it is all related to meiosis. Meiosis is the process of forming sex cells, gametes. Two things contribute into the genetic variability, one, independent assortment. And the other one, my beloved crossing over.

Meiosis - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chromosomal crossover - Wikipedia

Hence, no sex cell is identical. And while we share 50% with our siblings and approximately 25% with aunt/uncle, what we share is amazingly different.
Did I ask about identical twins? Are their DNA identical too?

Thanks for your response. Very interesting.
 
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