Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #112

[tresir2012]

I think they can only narrow it down to a family, some of which live local and some don't maybe only visiting. That witness that generated the NBG sketch may be the only one to see BG...and maybe the witness who saw someone leave by way of the cemetery but at too great a distance for facial recognition. I think there may be multiple men in this DNA gene pool that favor the trail witness's description so maybe they cannot positively identify them out of that family group. That could be why the vehicle info was so important for LE to confirm. I don't know, just some thoughts.

So do you suspect they may be doing something like they did with the GSK? Finding the family line, going back to Great Great Grandparents then bringing it forward to all those who meet the profile? That takes some time to do that.

 

[Torch Carrier]

DBM

 

[Torch Carrier]

I think we may have overwhelmed Momma K. : / I hope not. IF she is able to answer, my main question is this, IF she knows...

Is LE onto a certain BG and busy compiling the evidence - OR - is BG still an unknown??

 

[400bones]

So do you suspect they may be doing something like they did with the GSK? Finding the family line, going back to Great Great Grandparents then bringing it forward to all those who meet the profile? That takes some time to do that.

Just my thoughts- but I believe the "quality" of DNA in this and the GSK case will be completely different. I believe with trace DNA, at this point, we are only able to conclude certain genetic markers - which only goes so far and is why trace/touch DNA is most commonly used to exonerate rather than convict.
(Of course, this is assuming DNA was found, that LE is treating it as the suspect's, and that it is only trace.)

 

[tresir2012]

I think we may have overwhelmed Momma K. : / I hope not. IF she is able to answer, my main question is this, IF she knows...

Is LE onto a certain BG and busy compiling the evidence - OR - is BG still an unknown??

<modsnip - personalizing>

Anyway what next can we discuss? That's enough on DNA surely FTB?

 

[tresir2012]

Just my thoughts- but I believe the "quality" of DNA in this and the GSK case will be completely different. I believe with trace DNA, at this point, we are only able to conclude certain genetic markers - which only goes so far and is why trace/touch DNA is most commonly used to exonerate rather than convict.
(Of course, this is assuming DNA was found, that LE is treating it as the suspect's, and that it is only trace.)

Welcome Bones. TY for your response. Are bones your speciality at all?

 

[raja]

Just my thoughts- but I believe the "quality" of DNA in this and the GSK case will be completely different. I believe with trace DNA, at this point, we are only able to conclude certain genetic markers - which only goes so far and is why trace/touch DNA is most commonly used to exonerate rather than convict.
(Of course, this is assuming DNA was found, that LE is treating it as the suspect's, and that it is only trace.)

I am inclined to believe they have many different DNA sources and they are still in the process of narrowing down the correct one and getting all those ducks in row for an arrest. IMO only.

 

[Torch Carrier]

I think she may have inadvertently overwhelmed herself. 67 posts in one day has got to be a record surely?

Anyway what next can we discuss? That's enough on DNA surely FTB?

I am wondering two things ... (well, 200 really) ...

When DC said at the PC "remember, this is one person speaking" (when "Guys" was added in ... ) it sounds SO different, IMO, the "Guys" sounds younger ... is it DEF 1 person?

And, is voice recognition easy to utilize? Could FBI quickly/easily be running voice comparisons to rule people in/out?

With the video so blurry, DNA complex and likely overwhelming amts of it from so many different people who were tangentially in contact innocently with the girls, The Voice seems something to keenly focus on.

Sherriff Tobe himself said (para) "I've heard that voice..."

 

[Torch Carrier]

I am inclined to believe they have many different DNA sources and they are still in the process of narrowing down the correct one and getting all those ducks in row for an arrest. IMO only.

Yes, I did get the feeling, when they said they were down to like two dozen people, that it was likely a matter of DNA targeting. Would be nice to know IF that were the case. Would lend us a bit of hope, anyway.

That whole topic of DNA exhausts me.

 

[sunshineray]

DNA isn’t all about crimes. I just helped a 73 year old man in the Netherlands find his sister in Ontario. Now he knows who his father was as his mother was left pregnant after WW2. It is helping lots of families.

Yes, how wonderful!

 

[Torch Carrier]

So frustrated!!! May Today Please Be The Day.

 

[sunshineray]

So do you suspect they may be doing something like they did with the GSK? Finding the family line, going back to Great Great Grandparents then bringing it forward to all those who meet the profile? That takes some time to do that.

Yes I think they are doing the DNA research. I was just reading up on it again last night and they really got so lucky with the Golden State guy. It took many, many months but they were able to narrow it to 2 men. I have a feeling the Delphi case might be a more complicatd task. I do believe though that they've narrowed it to a definitive pool of suspects. JMO

 

[raja]

I did Ancestry and found out on my mother's side my great great great........?how many greats grandfather is Myles Standish, and another was an indentured servant on the Mayflower. Wow, they both were at the first Thanksgiving. That holiday has a whole new meaning. The weird thing was I could not link DNA from my father. A whole random family kept popping up. Talk about depression, both my parents aunts uncles etc have passed. I did eventually link my dad after going back many many generations in DNA links. I still don't know who the other family in my links are, someone somewhere in the past obviously strayed.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm no expert either - just speculating but I didn't follow the KB thread that much once they seemed to have the perps. I'll have to catch up on that.

Well, in KB’s thread, there was a person who saw her close to the time of “disappearance”, there was an electronic trace, there was an obvious motive, there was a witness/conspirator? cleaning the crime scene. There were other “witnesses” who heard of intent from the 3d party.

The only thing that was off was the first policeman who entered KB’s apartment and did not notice anything wrong. While apparently there were traces of blood and other substances.

But incidentally, the perpetrator, a stupid, but obstinate, bas..rd, comes from the family with long ties to LE. He comes from a good, respectable, family.

This prompts me to repeat my question. The LE in Delphi has taken DNA from all volunteers, from all arrested meth addicts, from all felons. Whatever they are looking for, is not in CODIS. I assume they took DNA from families, because families are always looked at in murder cases.

Have they taken DNA from their own PD? Have they taken DNA from the magistrate, from the mayorate, from their doctors, priests, lawyers?

If they think the person has ties to Delphi and it’s environs, let us stick to it. But let us put it so, if GK is now behind bars, any of his 3d or 4th relatives who will commit a crime, and leave DNA, will find a match in CODIS.

CODIS has been in existence since 1990. It is not a small system, although you saw how many matches were excluded from it because of the difference in laws between states.

But i’d venture to assume that the person is coming from a “good” family. So, PD, start with yourselves and other “respectable” citizens.

 

[susiQ]

Snipped for focus



I'm glad you have it all figured out!!

But seriously, you've talking about an event where your uncle's 3rd cousin already knew his situation was "murky." What if there is an out of wedlock parentage that no one still living knows about? Obviously it's not as simple as "the Y chromosome will tell it all" or else every cold case with offender DNA would be solved by now. Paul Holes, the criminalist who worked on the EAR/ONS case, revealed in an interview at Crime-Con that he had been consulted on the Delphi case and he thought they were going to have a tough investigation ahead of them with respect to using genealogy to solve it. There is something about the DNA available in this case that is off IMO.

BBM
And THAT is the "fly in the ointment."

 

[sunshineray]

Snipped for focus



I'm glad you have it all figured out!!

But seriously, you've talking about an event where your uncle's 3rd cousin already knew his situation was "murky." What if there is an out of wedlock parentage that no one still living knows about? Obviously it's not as simple as "the Y chromosome will tell it all" or else every cold case with offender DNA would be solved by now. Paul Holes, the criminalist who worked on the EAR/ONS case, revealed in an interview at Crime-Con that he had been consulted on the Delphi case and he thought they were going to have a tough investigation ahead of them with respect to using genealogy to solve it. There is something about the DNA available in this case that is off IMO.

Here's that Paul Holes article with info you mentioned. It's worth reading.

‘They Have A Tough Investigation Ahead:' Paul Holes On The Delphi Murders

 

[Charlot123]

I did Ancestry and found out on my mother's side my great great great........?how many greats grandfather is Myles Standish, and another was an indentured servant on the Mayflower. Wow, they both were at the first Thanksgiving. That holiday has a whole new meaning. The weird thing was I could not link DNA from my father. A whole random family kept popping up. Talk about depression, both my parents aunts uncles etc have passed. I did eventually link my dad after going back many many generations in DNA links. I still don't know who the other family in my links are, someone somewhere in the past obviously strayed.

@raja , look at the level of “popping up”. If you have any Finnish or Jewish admixture, or any other group with high level of endogamy, you’d have tons of unknown people, but they might be very distant relatives, you know?

Oh, keep the letters and stamps from the departed people. Soon two genetic companies will be extracting DNA from old licked stamps and sealed letters. You might get the DNAs of your ancestors!

My uncle threw out a lot when he was moving in with his new wife. Talk about depression

 

[sunshineray]

Well, in KB’s thread, there was a person who saw her close to the time of “disappearance”, there was an electronic trace, there was an obvious motive, there was a witness/conspirator? cleaning the crime scene. There were other “witnesses” who heard of intent from the 3d party.

The only thing that was off was the first policeman who entered KB’s apartment and did not notice anything wrong. While apparently there were traces of blood and other substances.

But incidentally, the perpetrator, a stupid, but obstinate, bas..rd, comes from the family with long ties in LE. He comes from a good, respectable, family.

This prompts me to repeat my question. The LE in Delphi has taken DNA from all volunteers, from all arrested meth addicts, from all felons. Whatever they are looking for, is not in CODIS. I assume they took DNA from families, because families are always looked at in murder cases.

Have they taken DNA from their own PD? Have they taken DNA from the magistrate, from the mayorate, from their doctors, priests, lawyers?

If they think the person has ties to Delphi and it’s environs, let us stick to it. But let us put it so, if GK is now behind bars, any of his 3d or 4th relatives who will commit a crime, and leave DNA, will find a match in CODIS.

CODIS has been in existence since 1990. It is not a small system, although you saw how many matches were excluded from it because of the difference in laws between states.

But i’d venture to assume that the person is coming from a “good” family. So, PD, start with yourselves and other “respectable” citizens.

I absolutely think there's been collection of refuse, swabbing of car doors etc to narrow down the family trees they have assembled. It takes time, lots of effort and care. I believe LE is doing all within their powers to get this murderous dreg in an airtight case of you did it, there's no reasonable doubt. AJMO

 

[Jealoushe]

2.5 years is a long time. The longer it goes without anything the longer it goes without it be solved. People evolve and grow. Situations happen.

To me, this case is dead. Never be solved.

2.5 years is nothing to a homicide case. Thankfully LE don't lose faith quite so easily.

 

[Charlot123]

It's off topic for this thread so this is all I'll say about it....I'm not talking about whether a disease can be successfully treated, or whether it is common. I'm talking about whether insurance companies could essentially exclude you from receiving the treatments available because they determine you are a bad genetic risk or treatments cost too much. As I said, in other countries with different healthcare delivery systems this worry may not exist. Here, and under this current administration, it does worry people or if you are not worried, you should be.

Snipped for brevity.

If people are afraid about insurance...But want to help catch a budding serial killer.

What prevents you from making your own DNA closed in Gedmatch and other systems, but your older relatives’ DNAs open? You know, people who are already on Medicare? In fact, they are more valuable to genealogy, as our DNAs are split into pieces. For genealogy and catching serial killers, they would be “upstream”, a generation or two up. For insurance Co, they can not deny you coverage as they really don’t know what genre you inherited from your pa, much less from grandpa.

So, close your and your kids’ DNA’s and open the older ones, with their consent, this should be enough.

Oh, and people who are downloading stuff to Gedmatch, if you have precise mito DNA, you have to add it manually, same with Y haplotype. Even for pure genealogy, it will help.

Added: I am exceptionally far from LE or insurances, I got caught in my own tree