Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #113

[bradfordsleuth]

I'm relatively new to this board I've browsed it before but how much weight do you guys put into the Packers Plant being a potential theory? I've posted this information but I'll rehash it for this board.


The incident in question happened several days after the Bicycle Bridge Rd raid that was a coordinated effort by both the Carroll County Sheriff's department and the FBI. The incident happened specifically at 1:10pm on Feb. 22 when the police received a report of a bomb threat having been phoned in.

The bomb threat specifically isn't all that interesting, but there was rumors at the time the the bomb threat was a means to get LE into the door. I'm not all that interested in if that is the case or not. However, roughly forty minutes later there is a interesting tweet from a "emmy award winning news reporter" that I will link below. Note the comments in the tweet. They didn't allow people to evacuate the building which is standard producer during a bomb threat.

Alexis McAdams ABC-7 on Twitter

This tweet is interesting because if it is to be believed they confiscated a pair of boots from the Packer's plant raid.

Interesting enough, the following day in the morning ( roughly 10am I believe) Carroll Sheriff Tobe Leazenby went on live TV to speak to news reporters specifically about DNA evidence which I will link below.

DNA evidence is top priority in Delphi murder investigation

The Sheriff later went back to rebuke certain things from this interview interesting enough as you can find here

Sheriff clarifies reports of DNA evidence

I haven't done enough research into the Bicycle Bridge Rd raid to know if the person targeted in that raid worked at the Packers plant nor do I encourage anyone else to do such things. I do wonder what those boots are and if they are related. There are other oddities I can elaborate further on if there is interest about this Packers Plant raid that remains unsolved.

I know it's all speculative and there is nothing definitively tying the two together. Also, the Sheriff department did state that they are unrelated. However, this still doesn't really explain why they apparently took physical evidence from a place with a history of bomb threats.

Hope to hear from you guys.

Hello and welcome!

I also felt that the crimes between the girls and the bomb threat somehow could be tied together despite LE saying they were unrelated, especially since the bomb threat was called in on the same day of the presser where the audio was released, and it was disclosed that Libby took the audio & video. It seemed like a very odd coincidence, and possibly a way to distract LE from their investigation.

I've never had a POI that was confirmed to be tied to the Packers Plant, but it has been in the back of my head that the killer somehow gained access and possibly dumped his bloody clothes (which could have been layered underneath what we see in the video) resembling the white apron/smock and head covering worn by workers there and also a weapon and possibly his boots hoping they would get chalked up to the regular soiled items that happen there daily.

In a case like this, I think that all theories need to be considered.

Incidentally, the day that article on DNA evidence was released is also the same day that LE went back to the crime scene area to search again. Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps Courtesy of @skibaboo the original tweet has disappeared but there was a tweet that stated that ISP returned to the crime scene.

You can fast forward to the three minute 20 second mark mark to listen and bypass the dramatic commentary if its too much. They found something (undisclosed) on the bridge the day they went back.

February 23, 2017

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1492352647456189

IMO, nothing can be taken at face value in this case after you do some digging.

JMO as always......

 

[FinePrint]

Hello and welcome!

I also felt that the crimes between the girls and the bomb threat somehow could be tied together despite LE saying they were unrelated, especially since the bomb threat was called in on the day of the same presser where the audio was released and it was disclosed that Libby took the audio & video. It seemed like a very odd coincidence, and possibly a way to distract LE from their investigation.

I've never had a POI that was confirmed to be tied to the Packers Plant, but it has been in the back of my head that the killer somehow gained access and possibly dumped his bloody clothes (which could have been layered underneath what we see in the video) resembling the white apron/smock and head covering worn by workers there and also a weapon and possibly his boots hoping they would get chalked up to the regular soiled items that happen there daily.

In a case like this, I think that all theories need to be considered.

Incidentally, the day that article on DNA evidence was released is also the same day that LE went back to the crime scene area to search again. Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps Courtesy of @skibaboo the original tweet has disappeared but there was a tweet that stated that ISP returned to the crime scene.

You can fast forward to the three minute 20 second mark mark to listen and bypass the dramatic commentary if its too much. They found something (undisclosed) on the bridge the day they went back.

February 23, 2017

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1492352647456189

IMO, nothing can be taken at face value in this case after you do some digging.

JMO as always......

I'm just trying to get this all put together in my mind so I don't go off in the wrong direction.

It looks like a flurry of activity in a short period of time
1) BBR search
2) Bomb treat at the Packers Plant, boots were taken as evidence.
3) LE returns to crime scene and more evidence is collected.

They did arrest a guy for the bomb threat at the Packers Plant. Is there more to this that I don't understand? Is it the thinking that the bomb threat was a ruse for LE to get into the plant without someone specifically not having time to hide certain potential evidence?

Suspect in Indiana Packers bomb threat arrested early Friday

There is a lot going on in a short period of time but can they be reasonably tied together?

 

[TL4S]

DBM

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I'm just trying to get this all put together in my mind so I don't go off in the wrong direction.

It looks like a flurry of activity in a short period of time
1) BBR search
2) Bomb treat at the Packers Plant, boots were taken as evidence.
3) LE returns to crime scene and more evidence is collected.

They did arrest a guy for the bomb threat at the Packers Plant. Is there more to this that I don't understand? Is it the thinking that the bomb threat was a ruse for LE to get into the plant without someone specifically not having time to hide certain potential evidence?

Suspect in Indiana Packers bomb threat arrested early Friday

There is a lot going on in a short period of time but can they be reasonably tied together?

Your right...there was alot of early activity of searches in the case. Can it all be tied in together? I am not sure but I was speculating that the bomb threat in Feb 2017 happening the same day as the presser was very coincidental.

The article you linked was regarding an arrest from the bomb threat that was called in back in 2016.
There was never an arrest for the February 2017 bomb threat.

I was wondering if maybe someone who called in the bomb threat was trying to distract LE from the presser that day....giving them more to juggle and distract them. Alternatively, perhaps someone who maybe knew that the killer had (in theory) left his kill clothes at the plant called in the threat to 'assist' LE in their investigation.

"They were on to something early on...." these words haunt me!

JMO

 

[FinePrint]

Your right...there was alot of early activity of searches in the case. Can it all be tied in together? I am not sure but I was speculating that the bomb threat in Feb 2017 happening the same day as the presser was very coincidental.

The article you linked was regarding an arrest from the bomb threat that was called in back in 2016.
There was never an arrest for the February 2017 bomb threat.

I was wondering if maybe someone who called in the bomb threat was trying to distract LE from the presser that day....giving them more to juggle and distract them. Alternatively, perhaps someone who maybe knew that the killer had (in theory) left his kill clothes at the plant called in the threat to 'assist' LE in their investigation.

"They were on to something early on...." these words haunt me!

JMO

Oh thanks for correcting that....Geezz how many bomb threats does that place have??

Well that defiantly places more interest on the Packers bomb threat if they never made an arrest. So could it have been a ruse for LE to enter the plant?

 

[TL4S]

Your right...there was alot of early activity of searches in the case. Can it all be tied in together? I am not sure but I was speculating that the bomb threat in Feb 2017 happening the same day as the presser was very coincidental.

The article you linked was regarding an arrest from the bomb threat that was called in back in 2016.
There was never an arrest for the February 2017 bomb threat.

I was wondering if maybe someone who called in the bomb threat was trying to distract LE from the presser that day....giving them more to juggle and distract them. Alternatively, perhaps someone who maybe knew that the killer had (in theory) left his kill clothes at the plant called in the threat to 'assist' LE in their investigation.

"They were on to something early on...." these words haunt me!

JMO

So is this chronologically correct?
1) PC - audio released and announced Libby had taken the video/audio 4/22
2) Bomb threat 2/22
3) LE went back to trails 2/23
4) Article about DNA 2/23
5) News clip about evidence on bridge 2/23

IMO, the news lady was saying LE thinks the girls crossed or nearly crossed the bridge based on something they found on the bridge. I think they were talking about the video, but that's JMO.

Also, there were road blocks to most entrances to the trail area again on 2/27

Edit: Thanks, @bradfordsleuth for noticing my "duh" moment on dates.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Oh thanks for correcting that....Geezz how many bomb threats does that place have??

Well that defiantly places more interest on the Packers bomb threat if they never made an arrest. So could it have been a ruse for LE to enter the plant?

NP.
There has been either two or three bomb threats called in there in the past. Definitely no arrest for the one in February 2017 though.

Could have been a ruse to enter the plant....

Could have been a ruse to get LE to divert their resources to a brand new assignment (finding out who called it in)....

Could be completely unconnected....

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

There are full Lefties. Their dominant hand is Left. In all activities. And then, there are ambidextrous lefties - for some activities, the dominant hand is left (usually it is for writing). And for others, the dominant hand is right - it may be sport, or mundane things, such as cutting bread.

The brain of a leftie is not 100% mirror image of that of the rightie. (It is a very interesting subject).

I wonder if there are ambidextrous righties. I think I read about some tennis player, who was a rightie, but served with left hand, but I might be reversing the hands ))).

I’m a leftie, except when I used to play softball. I threw righthanded and batted righthanded. But that was because I had to use my Dad’s glove when I was learning, and I was pretty young. So I had to be a rightie there. I play the guitar right handed because I learned to play on my Grandaddy’s guitar strung for a righthander. I play tennis and golf, brush my teeth, write, everything else left handed.
A friend of mine in high school thought more left handers were ambidextrous because the world was made for right handers and lefties were constantly being forced to use their right hands whether they wanted to or not. I thought it was a pretty good theory.
Also, I spent an entire tennis season serving right handed when I hurt my shoulder. I would serve, then switch my racket to my left hand for ground strokes etc. It was not a problem. But felt a little awkward.
As we’ve all discussed before, the gun that appears to be in BG’s pocket looks like it’s positioned for a left hander. I guess the question is, if that is so, does that eliminate 90% of the population from consideration? Or since lefties are not always 100% leftie does that still leave it wide open. My opinion is it still leaves it wide open.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Your right...there was alot of early activity of searches in the case. Can it all be tied in together? I am not sure but I was speculating that the bomb threat in Feb 2017 happening the same day as the presser was very coincidental.

The article you linked was regarding an arrest from the bomb threat that was called in back in 2016.
There was never an arrest for the February 2017 bomb threat.

I was wondering if maybe someone who called in the bomb threat was trying to distract LE from the presser that day....giving them more to juggle and distract them. Alternatively, perhaps someone who maybe knew that the killer had (in theory) left his kill clothes at the plant called in the threat to 'assist' LE in their investigation.

"They were on to something early on...." these words haunt me!

JMO

Your theory of the killer disposing of the “kill clothes” at the plant is similar to a theory a friend of mine came up with. I have always thought it was plausible.
This is interesting. Glad to focus on things from early on.

 

[FinePrint]

Those boots they recovered from the Packers Plant are those high rubber boots or Muck boots. I'm looking at the BG video and the shoes that he appears to be wearing are more like an ankle high boot, more fitted in appearance. Not like a tall rubber boot that has a much more bulkier look.

I do think the high rubber boot would be consistent with someone who works in the Packers plant. That is probably the type of boot someone would wear in that type of occupation.

Question is are the boots somehow related to this case....

 

[TL4S]

Those boots they recovered from the Packers Plant are those high rubber boots or Muck boots. I'm looking at the BG video and the shoes that he appears to be wearing are more like an ankle high boot, more fitted in appearance. Not like a tall rubber boot that has a much more bulkier look.

I do think the high rubber boot would be consistent with someone who works in the Packers plant. That is probably the type of boot someone would wear in that type of occupation.

Question is are the boots somehow related to this case....

I agree that BG doesn't appear to have those kinds of boots on under his jeans. If they collected those boots in relation to the murders, I don't think it was because they thought he had them on the day of the murder, or that the bootprints might match footprints at the CS, but instead maybe they were looking to see if something else was linked. Like if he'd gone to work right after the crime and deposited the girls' DNA on the boots, or creek water, mud, blood, whatever. Or if something was found at the CS that linked to the plant...hair, etc.

Trying to use the evidence to figure out this case reminds me of shining a flashlight into the night sky. It seems like it should work, but it just doesn't.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Your theory of the killer disposing of the “kill clothes” at the plant is similar to a theory a friend of mine came up with. I have always thought it was plausible.
This is interesting. Glad to focus on things from early on.

Its good to throw these ideas out there....I know I am guilty of some 'out there' theories.

I think that going back to the very beginning news links and msm can be very important in this case while keeping in mind the April 22nd presser and ALL the new info that was released.

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I’m a leftie, except when I used to play softball. I threw righthanded and batted righthanded. But that was because I had to use my Dad’s glove when I was learning, and I was pretty young. So I had to be a rightie there. I play the guitar right handed because I learned to play on my Grandaddy’s guitar strung for a righthander. I play tennis and golf, brush my teeth, write, everything else left handed.
A friend of mine in high school thought more left handers were ambidextrous because the world was made for right handers and lefties were constantly being forced to use their right hands whether they wanted to or not. I thought it was a pretty good theory.
Also, I spent an entire tennis season serving right handed when I hurt my shoulder. I would serve, then switch my racket to my left hand for ground strokes etc. It was not a problem. But felt a little awkward.
As we’ve all discussed before, the gun that appears to be in BG’s pocket looks like it’s positioned for a left hander. I guess the question is, if that is so, does that eliminate 90% of the population from consideration? Or since lefties are not always 100% leftie does that still leave it wide open. My opinion is it still leaves it wide open.

I thought the idea to narrow down on 11% of the suspects was interesting, only we can’t be sure of BG’s dexterity, given the video. If his odd walk did not give him out, not much can be added to it. I think, however, that sometimes, the MOD per se could indicate what hand the person used. Sorry to say it. So LE, probably, knows, or can figure out, if BG was a leftie, or not.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

So is this chronologically correct?
1) PC - audio released and announced Libby had taken the video/audio 4/22
2) Bomb threat 2/22
3) LE went back to trails 2/23
4) Article about DNA 2/23
5) News clip about evidence on bridge 2/23

IMO, the news lady was saying LE thinks the girls crossed or nearly crossed the bridge based on something they found on the bridge. I think they were talking about the video, but that's JMO.

Also, there were road blocks to most entrances to the trail area again on 2/27

Edit: Thanks, @bradfordsleuth for noticing my "duh" moment on dates.

IMO 5/5 are all correct!

(Thank you for adding in the road blocks, which could also be significant.)

She could be talking about the video taken on the bridge ....or perhaps could be related to an app-related adventure activity that has been tied to the bridge in the past .

This may also be important as well.....perhaps LE found the infamously mentioned duffle bag on BBR or on the trails or cemetary or in the water under the bridge during one of those searches? (If they did, in fact, find it!)

February 20, 2017
Tips pour in after suspect identified in Delphi double homicide

JMO

 

[FinePrint]

IMO 5/5 are all correct!

(Thank you for adding in the road blocks, which could also be significant.)

She could be talking about the video taken on the bridge ....or perhaps could be related to an app-related adventure activity that has been tied to the bridge in the past .

This may also be important as well.....perhaps LE found the infamously mentioned duffle bag on BBR or on the trails or cemetary or in the water under the bridge during one of those searches?

February 20, 2017
Tips pour in after suspect identified in Delphi double homicide

JMO

"or perhaps could be related to an app-related adventure activity" LOL!!!! Nicely put!

 

[Charlot123]

And, to add to this, what if the killer had frequented RL's property at other times as in helping around the farm and riding horses? That allows for plausible deniability. One could expect to find his DNA there.

The search party that could have had access to the bodies themselves was limited. I somehow doubt the killer was among them. If there was a lot of the search party member’s DNA on the bodies, it would be slightly suspicious. Anyhow, each search party member who found them might give own account of the events. Hopefully, LE compared them to find out inconsistencies.

If the killings were planned, the perp might have used some fluid commonly used to get rid of the DNA. If that was the case, the larger proteins might be analyzed, as in the article I have linked before. Also, the local grocery store owner might remember the guy who was buying housecleaning detergents shortly before the murders. Or, if he took it from RL’s farm, again, there should have been his DNA left there.

 

[TL4S]

"or perhaps could be related to an app-related adventure activity" LOL!!!! Nicely put!

Been taking lessons from DC?

 

[Charlot123]

Me! I'm an ambidextrous righty. I use my right hand predominately but I use my left hand for some sports, not all, and other daily activities. But I write and eat with my right hand. And I have a daughter who is an ambidextrous lefty.

And you both are likely very smart. It is obvious from your postings, but the fact that the brain, on its own, developed some unusual connections, is amazing!

 

[FinePrint]

I just have to believe there is some of his DNA at the CS or left on the victims bodies. He sure was covered up head to toe with the exception of his face and hands, no gloves.

Could he have killed the girls without actually having contact with them? Its possible I guess. A gun, a knife. In that case if the weapon or shell casings were not left behind its likely DNA would not have been found.

I do think that BG did have some type of contact with the girls and if they were able to put up a fight there is likely DNA evidence.

I also think there is way more to the audio and video evidence.

 

[Charlot123]

NP.
There has been either two or three bomb threats called in there in the past. Definitely no arrest for the one in February 2017 though.

Could have been a ruse to enter the plant....

Could have been a ruse to get LE to divert their resources to a brand new assignment (finding out who called it in)....

Could be completely unconnected....

JMO

And were the bomb threats in the past and now called in by the same, or different, people? If the same, maybe a person has some issue? Like, we have “serial arsonists”, maybe there are “serial bomb threat callers”?