Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #113

[raja]

boots like that might help someone cross a shallow creek.

Yes and I suppose he could have brought those with him. At this point nothing can be dismissed.

 

[Charlot123]

Deleted

 

[Charlot123]

That guy did call bomb threats and was arrested in may 20th 2016 for a bomb threat he called in on may 9th 2016. He could not of been the one that called in the unsolved bomb threat regarding this case.

Interesting. The photo of the guy who called the bomb threat in 2016 looks somewhat familiar, but I assume as a convicted felon, he has submitted his DNA.

 

[NameUser]

I feel like this case needs something to get the attention back on it. Bordering on a cold case at this point in my opinion.

Maybe another PC or statement from LE.

 

[Charlot123]

and what if the dna matched a family line, which narrowed the results to some brothers, who all happened to look like the sketches to some degree or another. that could be a "twist"

i don't know enough about dna to know if this could be a real world scenario, but it seems like it sure could and might explain the perceived impasse with making an arrest.

If they have whole DNA, not partial, then, if the brothers are full siblings, their Y is the same, and mitochondrial DNA is the same, but their autosomal DNAs match by 50%. They both get 50% of DNA from mom and 50% from dad (IRL, probably 50.3% from mom and 49,7% from dad, as Y chromosome is shorter and smaller than X). But, what 1/2 of maternal and paternal DNAs they get is random. Maybe not 100% random, but for our purposes, still random.

So you can be 100% able to tell brothers’ DNAs. Even if they get partial DNAs, i.e. pieces, they can amplify them by PCR, and if they have two brothers’ DNA, compare the fragments and tell ))).

One only hopes that local pathologist gathered all material that might be needed. Such murders are not common.

 

[Intrigued25]

If they have whole DNA, not partial, then, if the brothers are full siblings, their Y is the same, and mitochondrial DNA is the same, but their autosomal DNAs match by 50%. They both get 50% of DNA from mom and 50% from dad (IRL, probably 50.3% from mom and 49,7% from dad, as Y chromosome is shorter and smaller than X). But, what 1/2 of maternal and paternal DNAs they get is random. Maybe not 100% random, but for our purposes, still random.

So you can be 100% able to tell brothers’ DNAs. Even if they get partial DNAs, i.e. pieces, they can amplify them by PCR, and if they have two brothers’ DNA, compare the fragments and tell ))).

One only hopes that local pathologist gathered all material that might be needed. Such murders are not common.

Can LE determine from a DNA sample whether the person is right or left handed?

 

[Charlot123]

Now I am thinking about a very theoretical situation. Supposedly, the perp is a relative who is not known to the victims, but whose DNA 50% matches one of the victim’s DNA. Could the researchers be able to see the difference between “own” DNA and a 50% similar perp’s DNA on the body given that the crime scene was contaminated? On the body of the non-related person, will they be able to notice the difference between the DNA of the 2nd victim, and her 50% match? (Not even minimally suspecting anyone, more theoretical discussion about DNA in mixed samples). I think this is where the “Y” might play a huge role. But this potentially would be very difficult if they had only partial DNA from the perp.

 

[sloane7777]

Now I am thinking about a very theoretical situation. Supposedly, the perp is a relative who is not known to the victims, but whose DNA 50% matches one of the victim’s DNA. Could the researchers be able to see the difference between “own” DNA and a 50% similar perp’s DNA on the body given that the crime scene was contaminated? On the body of the non-related person, will they be able to notice the difference between the DNA of the 2nd victim, and her 50% match? (Not even minimally suspecting anyone, more theoretical discussion about DNA in mixed samples). I think this is where the “Y” might play a huge role. But this potentially would be very difficult if they had only partial DNA from the perp.

Well all along this is what Ive been asking but not brothers what about Father , could that be the issue ?????? what about a father son combo

 

[Charlot123]

Can LE determine from a DNA sample whether the person is right or left handed?

I have not seen it. When one runs “raw genome” through Promethease, sort of a Wikipedia for human genes, they might tell you the color of your eyes, or hair, or whether people are going to turn bald, etc. But I think that “handedness” is not one gene, too many are involved, so, I doubt that today they can.

And then again, they can only predict the “potential” of observing a certain trait, not whether one will have it, or not. With me, “95% of people with your genotype have brown eyes”. I beat their odds

So if they were looking for the perp with my genotype, they’ll probably go with brown eyes, and I shall be off their radar.

See where the danger of relying on the phenotype predicted by one’s genome lies?

 

[Charlot123]

Well all along this is what Ive been asking but not brothers what about Father , could that be the issue ?????? what about a father son combo

Same between the father and the son. They have the same Y, but only 50% of their DNA is the same. Even mitochondrial DNA, likely, will be different, because each got it from own mother, unless they come from a small village, or an ethnically homogeneous population.

They can always tell between the father and the son. Or the mother and the son.

But if there is a mix of DNAs, with both in the mix, and then many others, it might take longer to discriminate between the father’s and the son’s one. They need to use maternal one for the reference, I think.

 

[Charlot123]

That guy did call bomb threats and was arrested in may 20th 2016 for a bomb threat he called in on may 9th 2016. He could not of been the one that called in the unsolved bomb threat regarding this case.

Why? Was he still incarcerated?

 

[Charlot123]

Well all along this is what Ive been asking but not brothers what about Father , could that be the issue ?????? what about a father son combo

My theoretical thought was about an unknown relative (so, no greeting on the tape) who nonetheless is very genetically close to one victim (a brother, or a father). And then, in the mix of DNAs, the ones taken from related victim contain his, but are read as her own, as to the other victim, the perp's DNA on her are read as her friend's one. It can happen only in a very mixed sample.

What I think needs to be done if "all DNAs are accounted for" is compare both girls' DNAs against their respective mothers". It is called "phasing" - then the differences in the other, 50% similar, DNA, will be observed more clearly. But this is a very theoretical case.

Someone asked "What if all DNAs have been accounted for. What to do then?" I am thinking now, one more thing to do is run the victims' DNAs against their mothers' and compare with the sample mix - maybe they will see some different pieces.

 

[gregjrichards]

It looks like Liberty’s sister Kelsi is going to do a podcast so keep an eye out on Twitter for info.

 

[Ion]

It looks like Liberty’s sister Kelsi is going to do a podcast so keep an eye out on Twitter for info.

Shes done two podcast pretty recently. The best on is on a podcast called Criminology episode 48

She also did one on infamous indy episode 2

 

[Spartygirl]

I hear you, but I think the sketch in and of itself is a huge problem. How about take that sketch and then add some different hairstyle, like maybe bald, variations of spiked, straightened, military buzz whatever. Then, put a beard on it, a mustachio or a goatee. Let's face it, if that NBG sketch is remotely close to what the witness saw, that's NOT what NBG looks like 2 plus years later. Give us the same sketch with ALL the variations and see if that jogs any memories That's a lot of sketches to generate, but in this day and age it would be a breeze!

ETA: Any of you able to do such a thing? If not, I may try to find someone that can I know LE could, but I doubt they will! Actually, THEY SHOULD!

I was trying to find this post tonight LOL-- ask and you shall receive @susiQ

 

[BNA]

I was trying to find this post tonight LOL-- ask and you shall receive @susiQ

Good stuff.

 

[sunshineray]

Can LE determine from a DNA sample whether the person is right or left handed?

1st Genetic Markers Tied to Being Left-Handed Found

 

[susiQ]

I was trying to find this post tonight LOL-- ask and you shall receive @susiQ

Oh my!! That’s amazing Thank you!!

 

[Ion]

To my knowledge there is nothing what so ever to support BG was left-handed. 90% of the population is right handed and we have nothing to say otherwise.

However, LE would have a lot easier time speculating on that based on the the damage to the bodies.

I.E. right handed people are more likely to cause more damage to the left side of the victims body and vice versa. That he used a hand to hand weapon and not a projectile.

Anyways, how much weight does this forum put into the leaked text messages that where sent from the one of the family members that found the body?

 

[otto]

If they have whole DNA, not partial, then, if the brothers are full siblings, their Y is the same, and mitochondrial DNA is the same, but their autosomal DNAs match by 50%. They both get 50% of DNA from mom and 50% from dad (IRL, probably 50.3% from mom and 49,7% from dad, as Y chromosome is shorter and smaller than X). But, what 1/2 of maternal and paternal DNAs they get is random. Maybe not 100% random, but for our purposes, still random.

So you can be 100% able to tell brothers’ DNAs. Even if they get partial DNAs, i.e. pieces, they can amplify them by PCR, and if they have two brothers’ DNA, compare the fragments and tell ))).

One only hopes that local pathologist gathered all material that might be needed. Such murders are not common.

tresir2012, Thread #12

"Oh! What a tangled web we weave....

Yes that's how I thought it all occured. I must be confused by what you said earlier that KG said Libby called her Dad for a ride while they were in KG's car sitting at the trailhead. I'm sorry if I misunderstood but that's why.

She did call DG at that point at the trailhead. BP trusted her to call him when they had the earlier conversation before she left. You will need to listen to BP explaining it if I have confused you but I cannot make it any clearer."
​

What's this about Libby calling her dad in whose car? Why would they be in a car?

There's evidence that a sister dropped them off at the park, they walked the trail, crossed the bridge and were cornered. After crossing the river under the bridge, they were near the cemetery parking spots. That was down the hill from where they were on the bridge.

It is very confusing. Word is that no one can identify the suspect, although it is hard to believe that he was so well disguised, appearance and voice, that not even a family member knows him.