Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #115

[Hann]

Any thoughts on how LE might know the killer stayed for 20 min after the murders? Would there be a way forensically to tell?
assuming that caller isn’t just full of it.

That would be my question too. It would imply they know who is the killer.

 

[sloane7777]

My initial reaction to that April PC was Wow LE messed up! But after watching it a few days later, I took it as SOMEBODY misdirected LE & LE either got a darn good tip or something pointed them in the RIGHT direction. DC looked betrayed IMO

YES!!! by someone in the community that he trusted or should BE ABLE TO TRUST that's what I think too it was written all over his face!! he just needs to break an alibi or a witness who will stand up in court as reliable against this untouchable person!

 

[Kudzuu]

We keep referencing the "movie" The Shack but its always perked my ears a bit that in the PC I thought he referenced the "book" The Shack, is that correct? If so, and I'm a firm believer that everything in that PC was intentionally said and scripted prior, I would wonder too if there was also some "reading between the lines" intended for BG in referencing the book over the movie....

Interesting. I wonder what the differences are.

 

[zencompass]

There was a lawyer (a DA, I believe) who retired and then went back to work sometime just before the 4/22/19 presser. Is that lawyer still working? I recall some people speculating that he returned to work because this case was close to being solved and that there had been an arrest of someone for a different crime just prior to the presser.

Dear @puppyraiser,

Great question!

His name is Robert Ives (Carroll County Prosecutor) who returned to the case.

Following is a video from 2017 news article. Mr. Ives begins to speak around the 00.22 mark on the video.

Hearing that he was returning to the case made many of us feel optimistic.

Prosecutor says cops likely have met Delphi killer or received crucial tip due to scope of probe

 

[susiQ]

Everything below is JMO, speculation and thoughts...

In the absence of LE releasing further info since April 22nd, I know that many of us have been watching as many YouTube videos that we can get our hands on to get as much info about this case as possible.

Although many of these videos have been a valuable resource for us with respect to timelines, witness sightings, debunking rumors, etc. they are not a from the 'horses mouth' source of info that can only come from L.E.

I am also keeping in mind that the reason while LE has been so tight-lipped on DNA and witness sightings is to preserve their case.

I am having trouble validating that a person calling into a YouTuber would be in possession of such valuable information about DNA found at the crime scene that they would feel it is okay to release it.

In an important case like this, I don't think that L.E. discusses any crime scene details with close family or friends, or leaks out info, no matter whom they are speaking with. It just doesn't seem like a standard practice, especially since most of the key players involved and in who are in possession of such info in this case are so dedicated to seeing this case solved and the killer arrested and brought to justice.

In addition, should this person have an 'insider resource', they would be better off containing the information they are given in order to obtain additional information if they are that interested in the case, and not be disclosing it to the general public so that their identity can be discovered and possible repercussions can take place.

I am taking much of this info about 'touch DNA on the shoulder' with a very fine grain of salt. I am not losing hope that LE will have something solid to connect the killer to this crime.

On a different note, this was shared in another group and I found it helpful and interesting with respect to CODIS and DNA Submissions.

http://www.dps.state.ia.us/DCI/lab/CODIS_DNASubmissions.pdf

His clothes, shoes/boots and his weapon are somewhere waiting to be found, and there is evidence of this crime on all of those things.

He went home that day and sat on his couch, used his bathroom and slept in his bed. Traces of those girls are where he lives, whether he realizes it or not.

The evidence is there. L.E. will find it.

Again, JMO

I very much agree with what you've said about the caller, he should have kept his "info" to himself. However, it has been my opinion for some time that the DNA is the issue. And you are correct about his clothes, boots, jacket and all that. Unfortunately, they are likely buried beneath a veritable mountain of trash somewhere. That's how this case went bad. Betrayed by someone in your own community, failing to follow through "early on" on a solid tip, when the evidence was likely very close by and perhaps even recoverable from trash at the dump. Human error. Trusting someone that seems worthy of your trust, but they are not!

I think they are pretty certain who the killer is. I may change my mind again next week and I've only been on this roller coaster since the April PC I know many of you have been here since the beginning. Kudos to all of you!

 

[155etta]

Dear @puppyraiser,

Great question!

His name is Robert Ives (Carroll County Prosecutor) who returned to the case.

Following is a video from 2017 news article. Mr. Ives begins to speak around the 00.22 mark on the video.

Hearing that he was returning to the case made many of us feel optimistic.

Prosecutor says cops likely have met Delphi killer or received crucial tip due to scope of probe

"I WOULD EXPECT THEM TO SOLVE IT WITHIN A MONTH." What in the world is going on with this case?

“I go back before DNA and cell phones,” said Ives who remembered prosecuting criminal cases in Carroll County with less evidence than in this case since 1987, “and I certainly would have said, if experienced investigators, as we have in this case, had the evidence that was available in this case, I would expect them to solve it within a month. That’s without DNA and cell phones which are a big part of what’s going on here.

Prosecutor says cops likely have met Delphi killer or received crucial tip due to scope of probe

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I very much agree with what you've said about the caller, he should have kept his "info" to himself. However, it has been my opinion for some time that the DNA is the issue. And you are correct about his clothes, boots, jacket and all that. Unfortunately, they are likely buried beneath a veritable mountain of trash somewhere. That's how this case went bad. Betrayed by someone in your own community, failing to follow through "early on" on a solid tip, when the evidence was likely very close by and perhaps even recoverable from trash at the dump. Human error. Trusting someone that seems worthy of your trust, but they are not!

I think they are pretty certain who the killer is. I may change my mind again next week and I've only been on this roller coaster since the April PC I know many of you have been here since the beginning. Kudos to all of you!

I think BG burned all clothing he wore that day. In a fireplace or wood stove. Wouldn’t draw attention & could be done in the privacy of his own home or cabin. If he cleaned up the crime scene (not sure how I feel about that possibility) then you can bet your bottom dollar that he disintegrated any (at least with the clothing) material evidence linking him to the girls’ murders.
MOO

 

[zencompass]

"I WOULD EXPECT THEM TO SOLVE IT WITHIN A MONTH." What in the world is going on with this case?

“I go back before DNA and cell phones,” said Ives who remembered prosecuting criminal cases in Carroll County with less evidence than in this case since 1987, “and I certainly would have said, if experienced investigators, as we have in this case, had the evidence that was available in this case, I would expect them to solve it within a month. That’s without DNA and cell phones which are a big part of what’s going on here.

Prosecutor says cops likely have met Delphi killer or received crucial tip due to scope of probe

Dear @155etta,

Great point!

Do you think that the possibility of someone misleading the investigation at that time may have caused this not to be solved quickly?

The April press conference seemed to infer something like an intentional misleading of the case, in my opinion.

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

This is frame 47 0f the video sequence. I've flipped the image horizontally to switch the shadow to his left side.

He looks like a very young man with reddish brown hair in this frame, which is the closest he gets to the camera. Take a look at this horizontally flipped image and see if you don't agree.

He is young. His hair looks yellow-brown, the same color as this thing on his face. I wonder if he did pit a nylon stocking on his hars, to limit DNA shedding. As well as covered lower part of his face with the similar material. Either the same stuff is covering his nose, so it looks bulbous, or he simply wears some nasal mask. I think it is someone local, but disguised to the extreme.

 

[JnRyan]

I don't know if his shows are transcribed, good question. He can be a bit of a slowww listen sometimes.

My read on that caller is basically somebody who knows or is related to a source of police quality info. I got the feeling they were for real and not blowing smoke.

They said the only DNA LE has is a very small amount of touch DNA, an "insignificant amount" from the shoulder of a sweatshirt. They don't even know if it's the killer's. LE is amazed "they can't believe how little is there", so little DNA was at the murder scene. Just have to "hope killer has told someone but with a quarter of a million reward" and nothing, he most likely "he hasn't told a soul."

Killer was also said to have still been at the area 20 minutes after Libby's dad started looking for them. Just chilling to think about. Maybe why there's so little DNA evidence. All in all, very disheartening information given.

That caller starts at 2 hrs in.

Normally, I like listening to GH's videos, but this one appears to be going in the direction that Anthony Greeno has been accused of going in. LE has never said anything that I know of about an "insignificant amount of DNA" from the "shoulder of a sweatshirt" or anywhere else. Some of the other points covered appear to be logical speculation base on the area and the time line as we know it and that's right in line with what we are doing here.

 

[susiQ]

I think BG burned all clothing he wore that day. In a fireplace or wood stove. Wouldn’t draw attention & could be done in the privacy of his own home or cabin. If he cleaned up the crime scene (not sure how I feel about that possibility) then you can bet your bottom dollar that he disintegrated any (at least with the clothing) material evidence linking him to the girls’ murders.
MOO

Excellent point!

 

[sleuther0192837465]

He is young. His hair looks yellow-brown, the same color as this thing on his face. I wonder if he did pit a nylon stocking on his hars, to limit DNA shedding. As well as covered lower part of his face with the similar material. Either the same stuff is covering his nose, so it looks bulbous, or he simply wears some nasal mask. I think it is someone local, but disguised to the extreme.

Nylon!!! Never thought of that before! OMG I bet you’re right! Nylon would push his nose down & make his nostrils look wider!! If so, that’s even scarier than I’d imagined! Those poor girls!!

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Normally, I like listening to GH's videos, but this one appears to be going in the direction that Anthony Greeno has been accused of going in. LE has never said anything that I know of about an "insignificant amount of DNA" from the "shoulder of a sweatshirt" or anywhere else. Some of the other points covered appear to be logical speculation base on the area and the time line as we know it and that's right in line with what we are doing here.

ITA

 

[Spartygirl]

I'm not seeing it with the age group. Certainly the man in the video was not in the same age group as Abby/Libby, but much older. The theory that he met up with them on the internet is absurd; as LE would have caught up with that very quickly.

Considering this strange case, NO theory is absurd.
IIRC, GBI was called in also to more than likely look at cyber connection, the girls' SM connections, etc.
LE may know something but they sure aren't going to tell the general public any of the information, so we just don't know for sure.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Now I gotta go back & look at BG’s pics for the 10 millionth time Thanks @Charlot123 !!

 

[pearl]

P.S. I saw a pic elsewhere of the young guy I think looks just like the NBG sketch showing me that he WAS in attendance at the 4/22 presser. And at least one of his parents I can see was there, as well.

Hello again.
I've tried to post this reply twice already but haven't been successful. Apologies if it shows up more than once. I seldom post on this forum but do read it daily. I only post if I think I have a valid observation or thought to add. Ya'll are much more active than me. I wonder if the killer is now ever out in public alone or without a "keeper." By keeper I mean a person who knows what he did and is there to interfere in uncomfortable situations. A couple more thoughts on the April PC. I think the killer was definitely in the room, and that LE knew he would be. One possible reason the PC was held with advance planning was so that the killer would be in the room when the new sketch was unveiled. Kind of like to see his reaction. Also to see if someone had an "Aha" moment. Maybe that someone would indicate unconsciously a reaction. A directed look would have been good too. That PC was scripted, IMO, for the killer and whoever is the fly in the ointment of solving this crime. Rest easily, Abby and Libby. The day will come when this monster is apprehended and shown to the world as the coward he is.

 

[Charlot123]

Hello again.
I've tried to post this reply twice already but haven't been successful. Apologies if it shows up more than once. I seldom post on this forum but do read it daily. I only post if I think I have a valid observation or thought to add. Ya'll are much more active than me. I wonder if the killer is now ever out in public alone or without a "keeper." By keeper I mean a person who knows what he did and is there to interfere in uncomfortable situations. A couple more thoughts on the April PC. I think the killer was definitely in the room, and that LE knew he would be. One possible reason the PC was held with advance planning was so that the killer would be in the room when the new sketch was unveiled. Kind of like to see his reaction. Also to see if someone had an "Aha" moment. Maybe that someone would indicate unconsciously a reaction. A directed look would have been good too. That PC was scripted, IMO, for the killer and whoever is the fly in the ointment of solving this crime. Rest easily, Abby and Libby. The day will come when this monster is apprehended and shown to the world as the coward he is.

Yes, but are you sure the LE knows? At first they wanted it to be DN so much, they were chasing out-of-state pedophiles.

When people say that someone steered LE the wrong way, sorry, I don’t buy it. The LE chose to believe, if they did so. It is their job to vet witnesses. They lost two years.

Then suddenly, they realized they missed something. And made 180 degrees turn. Well, I am not sure anymore. Maybe they are right, and maybe wrong again.

 

[Charlot123]

When I look at both sketches side by side I see the same eyes nose and mouth in both. Not exactly a match but the similarities are striking. I enlarged them both so I could only see that much.
The hooded eyes in the first one are drawn half closed in the newer one. The nose is not symmetrical - in one it is bent to the right and the other to the left. The philtrum proportion is the same. A vertical line drawn from the center of the top lip to center of the eyebrows shows the same nose proportions in both sketches. The lips are almost an exact match.

What makes the first one look older is the character given to it by adding depth, shading and facial hair. Then the hat vs the poofy hair and lack of detail.

They are NOT completely different people IMO.

Please don't do this and then post it here as we have been asked by LE to NOT alter any images released by them to the public. Such things have caused great confusion in the past.

It's tempting but don't do it, LOL

JMO
.

So the outer corners of the eyes look slightly down to you?

What about the nasal bridge?

 

[busymcmoody]

I’m one who doesn’t think the audio clip was edited and here’s why.
1) LE repeatedly has asked people not to post altered images of BG online, saying it is not helpful and could interfere with prosecution when the killer actually is caught and put on trial. It seems to me, that thinking would apply to the audio too, so I don’t think LE would break their own rule.
2) If LE did, in fact, edit the audio clip, I think they would and could have produced a cleaner version, without the awkward garbled part between “guys” and “down the hill”. I do think that part is garbled because LE doesn’t want us to hear something. It’s either the girls’ voices or the killer telling them in a much harsher or profane way to go down the hill.
Just my thoughts on things.

I don't think that it's breaking a rule when they edit something that may make it easier people to recognize a voice. IMO They don't want stuff edited because people may edit the picture to make it look like somebody else, or make side by side comparison, or change the sound of the voice. They have the equipment to edit an audio clip without changing the profile of the voice. They have control of what they edit. There could have been something between the two parts of the audio and they garbled it. Same difference. They still edited it and it's two parts of an audio. All MOO.

 

[busymcmoody]

Everything below is JMO, speculation and thoughts...

In the absence of LE releasing further info since April 22nd, I know that many of us have been watching as many YouTube videos that we can get our hands on to get as much info about this case as possible.

Although many of these videos have been a valuable resource for us with respect to timelines, witness sightings, debunking rumors, etc. they are not a from the 'horses mouth' source of info that can only come from L.E.

I am also keeping in mind that the reason while LE has been so tight-lipped on DNA and witness sightings is to preserve their case.

I am having trouble validating that a person calling into a YouTuber would be in possession of such valuable information about DNA found at the crime scene that they would feel it is okay to release it.

In an important case like this, I don't think that L.E. discusses any crime scene details with close family or friends, or leaks out info, no matter whom they are speaking with. It just doesn't seem like a standard practice, especially since most of the key players involved and in who are in possession of such info in this case are so dedicated to seeing this case solved and the killer arrested and brought to justice.

In addition, should this person have an 'insider resource', they would be better off containing the information they are given in order to obtain additional information if they are that interested in the case, and not be disclosing it to the general public so that their identity can be discovered and possible repercussions can take place.

I am taking much of this info about 'touch DNA on the shoulder' with a very fine grain of salt. I am not losing hope that LE will have something solid to connect the killer to this crime.

On a different note, this was shared in another group and I found it helpful and interesting with respect to CODIS and DNA Submissions.

http://www.dps.state.ia.us/DCI/lab/CODIS_DNASubmissions.pdf

His clothes, shoes/boots and his weapon are somewhere waiting to be found, and there is evidence of this crime on all of those things.

He went home that day and sat on his couch, used his bathroom and slept in his bed. Traces of those girls are where he lives, whether he realizes it or not.

The evidence is there. L.E. will find it.

Again, JMO

^^^ All of this!

I also hear DC saying in my mind on TV that one day he will share what the "Shack" reference was about. I am confident he knows who it was, they just have a hard time putting the evidence and the perp in the same location at the same time.