Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[tresir2012]

Why 'The Shack' 2017 film was mentioned in reference to unsolved Delphi murders

I came across this MSM article regarding "The Shack" so thought I would post the link.

I will add it to the media thread also.

 

[Falling Down]

People have talked about BG having been this master criminal for concealing evidence but the reality is that the woodland location of these murders really hindered evidence collection.

I found this National Institute of Justice site that talks about outdoor crime scenes.

"An outdoor crime scene is the most vulnerable to loss, contamination and damaging effects on biological evidence in a short period of time. Individuals with access to the scene can potentially alter, destroy or contaminate evidence. The risk is greatest when the crime scene is not properly secured.

Destruction or deterioration of evidence due to environmental conditions, such as heat, cold, rain, snow and wind call for rapid and effective protection of biological evidence. Evidence that cannot be protected under these conditions should be quickly collected without compromising its integrity. When encountering a combination of an indoor and outdoor scene, process the outdoor component first.

Nighttime outdoor crime scenes are especially problematic. Regardless of the quality of the light source used to illuminate the scene, the lack of sunlight can increase the possibility of missing or destroying evidence. Whenever possible, hold and secure outdoor crime scenes for processing until daylight."

Module 02 :: Outdoor Crime Scene

Not to mention possible involvement of curious animals and that sort of thing.

I've taken the circumstances of what happened that day, and between the murders and when they were found, and came to my own conclusion this was a well thought out set of crimes. The fact that the bodies were in the woods overnight would compromise critical evidence, namely DNA. Approximately 21.5 hours from TOD to discovery of the bodies, then securing of the scene, taking the bodies away, etc.

Cases I've seen where they were solved by DNA mainly revolved around crimes which happened indoors, as well as those involving bodily fluids, sexual assault, etc. One here in Fort Wayne was solved some years ago because the perp shed a layer of clothing after he shot someone twice during a struggle, so both the perp's and the victim's DNA was on the discarded clothing.

I'd imagine finding DNA on victims left outdoors, where the perp was at least somewhat careful about leaving DNA, might be difficult considering the exposure to the elements, so to speak.

JMO

 

[tresir2012]

Ok, I replied to charlot123 above, but for some reason, it is not posting right and I don't see the option to delete my post and try again.

Your reply is in there but the last QUOTE has the end bracket ] missing. If you report the post as a "Broken quote", a mod can hopefully correct it for you.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

People have talked about BG having been this master criminal for concealing evidence but the reality is that the woodland location of these murders really hindered evidence collection.

I found this National Institute of Justice site that talks about outdoor crime scenes.

"An outdoor crime scene is the most vulnerable to loss, contamination and damaging effects on biological evidence in a short period of time. Individuals with access to the scene can potentially alter, destroy or contaminate evidence. The risk is greatest when the crime scene is not properly secured.

Destruction or deterioration of evidence due to environmental conditions, such as heat, cold, rain, snow and wind call for rapid and effective protection of biological evidence. Evidence that cannot be protected under these conditions should be quickly collected without compromising its integrity. When encountering a combination of an indoor and outdoor scene, process the outdoor component first.

Nighttime outdoor crime scenes are especially problematic. Regardless of the quality of the light source used to illuminate the scene, the lack of sunlight can increase the possibility of missing or destroying evidence. Whenever possible, hold and secure outdoor crime scenes for processing until daylight."

Module 02 :: Outdoor Crime Scene

bbm
Since days, I wanted to mention this "biological evidence" again, because I remembered this being said in the early times of investigation. I've not forgotten, what I thought at the time: maybe they found some human excrement. - When I looked for the info once more, 2 years ago or so, the info was gone (which I find remarkable).

 

[PezCandy]

bbm
Since days, I wanted to mention this "biological evidence" again, because I remembered this being said in the early times of investigation. I've not forgotten, what I thought at the time: maybe they found some human excrement. - When I looked for the info once more, 2 years ago or so, the info was gone (which I find remarkable).

I have had this problem with missing articles/info, I guess that after a certain amount of time they get put in archives and some archives are literally black holes that are trash cans, or they edit the original info so much that it’s basically a whole different article. I was in a legal matter were there were certain news articles etc that were out there that were needed for the case, long story short what I stated earlier in my post is what I was told when the lawyers and detectives couldn’t get them.

 

[JnRyan]

People have talked about BG having been this master criminal for concealing evidence but the reality is that the woodland location of these murders really hindered evidence collection.

I found this National Institute of Justice site that talks about outdoor crime scenes.

"An outdoor crime scene is the most vulnerable to loss, contamination and damaging effects on biological evidence in a short period of time. Individuals with access to the scene can potentially alter, destroy or contaminate evidence. The risk is greatest when the crime scene is not properly secured.

Destruction or deterioration of evidence due to environmental conditions, such as heat, cold, rain, snow and wind call for rapid and effective protection of biological evidence. Evidence that cannot be protected under these conditions should be quickly collected without compromising its integrity. When encountering a combination of an indoor and outdoor scene, process the outdoor component first.

Nighttime outdoor crime scenes are especially problematic. Regardless of the quality of the light source used to illuminate the scene, the lack of sunlight can increase the possibility of missing or destroying evidence. Whenever possible, hold and secure outdoor crime scenes for processing until daylight."

Module 02 :: Outdoor Crime Scene

So its possible this is killer has just been lucky. So far.

 

[TheVisual]

I have had this problem with missing articles/info, I guess that after a certain amount of time they get put in archives and some archives are literally black holes that are trash cans, or they edit the original info so much that it’s basically a whole different article. I was in a legal matter were there were certain news articles etc that were out there that were needed for the case, long story short what I stated earlier in my post is what I was told when the lawyers and detectives couldn’t get them.

Does Websleuths have an archive that has the pictures etc. that are missing in the image thread? Ever since Websleuths redid the site, the majority of the pictures are x'ed out. I have gone back many times looking for a specific picture and it can't be had.

 

[Jeeps22]

I have a theory I'd like to share. I'm going to type out sort of a 'shell' of a theory - many blanks to fill in, but I'll give the gist of it. I hope you all can bear with me while I lay this out. It might make sense to you at the end.

There's a certain someone in the internet true crime sleuthing community who is asserting a two perp scenario that involves a father and son. Maybe some of you are familiar with it. At first, I didn't give it any thought because it just sounds so far-fetched. But the more I think about it the more I see a real possibility that this could be it. Here's why. This was the day before Valentine's Day. What if the girls were lured there by a boy that one of them had been 'seeing', or had been 'talking to', and the promise of something sweet but daring compelled the girls to go? The Deer Creek area would provide cover for a secret meeting and the girls would have felt comfortable going there together buddy system style. For whatever reason, the visit didn't go well and I don't want to speculate as to why, since the possibilities are endless. But what if the boy that they met there became angry over something and he lost his temper and hurt one or both of the girls? What if the boy became scared by what he had done and called the only person he could trust to help him? His own father. Sounds crazy, right? Maybe. However......

Does anyone remember the Natalee Holloway case? Joran Van Der Sloot? He called his father for help after a night of drinking with Natalee "went bad". And his father was a local judge! Maybe the father/son theory isn't so crazy after all. Some people who enjoy a respected station in life, in their community often feel a sense of entitlement.......and an intense desire for self-preservation. Maybe that's what motivates this crime to go unsolved. Maybe it motivated the crimes to begin with.

As I said, I'm deliberately leaving some blank spaces because all we can do is speculate on the details. But I'm fairly convinced that this could be the outline of the truth to what happened to Abby and Libby.

Edited to add: I've always wondered how someone could do double murder at this location, seemingly unconcerned about trail cams or some kind of security surveillance. Maybe the perp is so familiar to the area and knew for a fact that there were no trail cams or security cameras?

 

[sunshineray]

Perhaps the bbm-part went different than you think.

Bringing the girls across the creek and murdering them, doesn't mean "kidnapping", IMO. But LE is speaking of "kidnapping" before double murder in case Abby/Libby.

The killer and his accomplice had to plan, that there might be a very narrow time window until someone would appear to pick up the two teenage girls at the trail. So the killer's plan would have included a drive to a different place/destination/barn/shack/building, IMO. A waiting car "down the hill" or under the bridge would make a lot of sense, IMO. This car may have been one of two cars, if the killer had an accomplice (one car perhaps at the CBS building).
IF it is a SK with an accomplice and IF he is a very smart=evil one, he is perhaps "modifying the game" each time by:
kidnapping his victim/s and turn them back to/near to the first crime scene
OR
kidnapping his victim/s and leave them at a second crime scene
OR
leave them at the first crime scene without kidnapping.
MOO

If you listen to the Renner interview with Abby's mom, she talks about being allowed to listen to some audio Libby's phone recorded. Abby said something to which Libby responded, (paraphrasing) we can't go on ahead, the trail ends right there. That sounds like that at the very least Abby was made very uncomfortable by the approaching BG. Those girls didn't go down that hill with BG willing, it was an abduction. JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I have thought this too, that private drive is just way too convenient. However, I go back to the timeline involved, and that is a rather narrow window. They'd have to drive them somewhere, commit the crime, drive them back, haul the bodies across the creek....etc. etc. Sounds like too much work to me.

These girls were athletes. They could have outrun BG. They could have gone 'down the hill' and ran on that driveway. Say BG had a gun. Then fear could have prevented them running, and possibly prevented them screaming too. They could have walked compliantly across the creek, out of fear. But my gut says something else. Reason is, there's too many people around, too much chance of being heard. The killer(s) had to incapacitate the girls early in the timeline, so as to not risk being discovered.

I think it was 'down the hill', across the creek, to a known (by the killer(s)) secluded spot that afforded them a chance to do the crime, PLUS an escape route up the hill through the cemetery, or somewhere in close proximity to it.

so, planning was good. These guys could plan.
High IQ + organization + cruelty + making DNA unrecognizable mess (many versions of why) + two people

Into the profile...

 

[Charlot123]

There are also a lot of civilians who work at these bases too, just to complicate things further. Or they could be a reservist only doing two weeks training a year. The connection to Evansdale is very interesting.

I am not from Delphi and have no access to its school but if I were LE, I’d check if some army brats temporary attended it before moving

 

[Charlot123]

I have a theory I'd like to share. I'm going to type out sort of a 'shell' of a theory - many blanks to fill in, but I'll give the gist of it. I hope you all can bear with me while I lay this out. It might make sense to you at the end.

There's a certain someone in the internet true crime sleuthing community who is asserting a two perp scenario that involves a father and son. Maybe some of you are familiar with it. At first, I didn't give it any thought because it just sounds so far-fetched. But the more I think about it the more I see a real possibility that this could be it. Here's why. This was the day before Valentine's Day. What if the girls were lured there by a boy that one of them had been 'seeing', or had been 'talking to', and the promise of something sweet but daring compelled the girls to go? The Deer Creek area would provide cover for a secret meeting and the girls would have felt comfortable going there together buddy system style. For whatever reason, the visit didn't go well and I don't want to speculate as to why, since the possibilities are endless. But what if the boy that they met there became angry over something and he lost his temper and hurt one or both of the girls? What if the boy became scared by what he had done and called the only person he could trust to help him? His own father. Sounds crazy, right? Maybe. However......

Does anyone remember the Natalee Holloway case? Joran Van Der Sloot? He called his father for help after a night of drinking with Natalee "went bad". And his father was a local judge! Maybe the father/son theory isn't so crazy after all. Some people who enjoy a respected station in life, in their community often feel a sense of entitlement.......and an intense desire for self-preservation. Maybe that's what motivates this crime to go unsolved. Maybe it motivated the crimes to begin with.

As I said, I'm deliberately leaving some blank spaces because all we can do is speculate on the details. But I'm fairly convinced that this could be the outline of the truth to what happened to Abby and Libby.

Edited to add: I've always wondered how someone could do double murder at this location, seemingly unconcerned about trail cams or some kind of security surveillance. Maybe the perp is so familiar to the area and knew for a fact that there were no trail cams or security cameras?

Even if there was only one killer, I think, two is a theory not to be discarded, and here is why.

Each time we have a perp that fits but, say, is too tall, too old, different hair color, etc, he is discarded because it is assumed there was only one killer.

The two killer theory would allow not to discard really suspicious people. Just put them on the clearing, for the time being...

 

[margarita25]

People have talked about BG having been this master criminal for concealing evidence but the reality is that the woodland location of these murders really hindered evidence collection.

I found this National Institute of Justice site that talks about outdoor crime scenes.

"An outdoor crime scene is the most vulnerable to loss, contamination and damaging effects on biological evidence in a short period of time. Individuals with access to the scene can potentially alter, destroy or contaminate evidence. The risk is greatest when the crime scene is not properly secured.

Destruction or deterioration of evidence due to environmental conditions, such as heat, cold, rain, snow and wind call for rapid and effective protection of biological evidence. Evidence that cannot be protected under these conditions should be quickly collected without compromising its integrity. When encountering a combination of an indoor and outdoor scene, process the outdoor component first.

Nighttime outdoor crime scenes are especially problematic. Regardless of the quality of the light source used to illuminate the scene, the lack of sunlight can increase the possibility of missing or destroying evidence. Whenever possible, hold and secure outdoor crime scenes for processing until daylight."

Module 02 :: Outdoor Crime Scene

Good find, thanks for posting.

I think the creek may have played a role in this as well, moo.

 

[Torch Carrier]

If BG is a young man, perhaps Val Day then looming did have significance.

Maybe NBG and 1 girl made plans to meet to talk. 2nd girl was unexpected. Talking did not go well. NBG lashed out. Then had to cover up the damage, killing both.

When I was awkward age 15 I went for a walk planning to break up with my first serious boyfriend. Guess what. He wanted one more roll in the hay! No way!! Didn't happen. But boys can be very persistent.

Maybe Val Day played a part. Just sayin.

 

[BNA]

Has anybody compiled a list of Delphi area high school athletes (basketball/football/track) who went on to play for a major or semi-major college programs...HS graduation dates 2015 to present? This is a very serious question.

MOO, is that some of our perp(s) or witness(es) might be found there. If it was me who was "just starting" after releasing that second sketch of a younger fellow....that's where I would be starting.

I suggest that some of our best board sleuths take a try at that, if they have not already.

 

[Trebor5591]

The murder occurred on February 13, 2017--two years and 10 months ago. Liberty German videotaped the murderer walking across the bridge, and may have even recorded the murder itself. There have been thousands of tips, but no arrests.
6 months ago in an uncomfortable news conference that seemed overly emotional and even IMO unprofessional, with references to a movie (The Shack), and announcements of a new investigative strategy, directed at the murderer apparently, LEO issued a new sketch which looks nothing like the guy Libby videotaped on the bridge.

Still no arrest since that time. Given the length of time since the murders, and the confusion about the two sketches, to me it unfortunately seems this case is heading towards cold case status, with little chance of LEO arresting anyone and little chance of justice for Libby and Abby. Does anyone else hold that view, or do you feel LEO will eventually find and arrest the murderer?

 

[Falling Down]

<snip>

Edited to add: I've always wondered how someone could do double murder at this location, seemingly unconcerned about trail cams or some kind of security surveillance. Maybe the perp is so familiar to the area and knew for a fact that there were no trail cams or security cameras?

Great points, here.

Early on I'd wondered where the image, and later images, came from that ISP released of BG. I'd assumed it was a trail cam of some sort, and I figured the cam was just off the SE end of the bridge perhaps along a public trail or a trail on private property. A lot of us here thought that early on, and were wondering if it was a trail cam. Then a lot of us figured out those are private properties along the creek, there's public land but not much at all along there.

Then it was revealed the images came from Libby's phone!

I agree with your line of reasoning, and wonder if this is yet more proof the guy is local, as in so local he knows the bridge and trails on private property like the back of his hand. BG had to have known there were no trail cams on those private properties.

The mystery deepens, in my mind.

 

[CSIDreamer]

So she fought, and the guy got angry to the extreme, and he took his anger on her.

When can a person get so angry?

1) Bipolar-psychotic
2) High on meth
3) an incredible narcissist

Something else?

If he was already angry (personal attack),
If a girl fighting back hadn't been included in his plans,
If he was afraid of being caught due to her fighting.

JMO

 

[stattlich1]

Has anybody compiled a list of Delphi area high school athletes (basketball/football/track) who went on to play for a major or semi-major college programs...HS graduation dates 2015 to present? This is a very serious question.

I worked in public school for 20 years. Teen behavior is fascinating. I would venture to say that there are likely teens/classmates that could shed some insights in to what happened that day, but are fearful to come forward. "Snitches get Stitches"..... and in this case, that is a very, VERY, serious concern.

There are some real tough questions I'd have, some that would be very unpopular, but would never throw out on a public forum. Hopefully local law enforcement is savvy enough to seek information from potential sources that would know the details of a student's life.

Very unusual behavior would be the reboot of a cellphone. Why would an 8th grader do that?

Not just urban, but rural schools too include drug use, drug dealing, gang activity, violence, threats of violence, and other sinister behavior and activity that would not be known to the local populace. I know. It was my forte.

 

[Fizzle]

I worked in public school for 20 years. Teen behavior is fascinating. I would venture to say that there are likely teens/classmates that could shed some insights in to what happened that day, but are fearful to come forward. "Snitches get Stitches"..... and in this case, that is a very, VERY, serious concern.

There are some real tough questions I'd have, some that would be very unpopular, but would never throw out on a public forum. Hopefully local law enforcement is savvy enough to seek information from potential sources that would know the details of a student's life.

Very unusual behavior would be the reboot of a cellphone. Why would an 8th grader do that?

Not just urban, but rural schools too include drug use, drug dealing, gang activity, violence, threats of violence, and other sinister behavior and activity that would not be known to the local populace. I know. It was my forte.

I've always found the reboot suspicious as well. I have teens and they would never reboot without talking to me about it and figuring out how to save a back up on my computer or in the cloud. That is, unless they were restoring factory settings for the purpose of "losing" everything on the phone.

I agree with you that the teen mind is fascinating. "Good" "smart" kids can still make poor decisions. Their brains are not fully formed and they tend to have trouble with impulse control.