Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

[heartgoesout]

Anyone hear from a mod when the glitching problem is going to be fixed?
If you're having the same problem maybe just like this instead of replying over and over.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'm with the group who believes BG was spitting on the bridge.

From the April 22, 2019 release:

"When you see the video, watch the person's mannerisms as they walk," Carter said Monday. "Do you recognize the mannerisms as being someone you might know?"

The wind was blowing from the west that afternoon, so he would have been spitting to his left. It's also very possible that was what LE collected from the bridge.

 

[sunshineray]

The three FBI agents in that podcast that Margarita posted information from, it seemed the consensus of two was BG took the girls from the point of contact to a predetermined "lair". I've never thought of it in that way before. If that's truly the case, being on RL's private property was planned out in advance by the killer. It makes me wonder all the more now about persons who also lived close by RL's property and all of their asscociations.

 

[margarita25]

I don't think he sounds upset. I think it's like if you're with two kids who are in trouble for something and someone else (other parent, perhaps) walks in the room and starts talking to them while you're walking them to time out. You give it a moment and then, somewhat annoyed or slightly impatient but in control, you remind them to keep going.

So I picture him giving them instructions. Or someone else is with them already, waiting on BG, and maybe there's a scuffle or #2 isn't so in control and tries to talk or something.

Then he's like, "Guys, down the hill..." to take back the control.

It's calm but it's interruptive.

To me, the way he holds his head and kind of talks into his shoulder is the way you would if you're near someone, talking to them about someone else that's not too far away.

One thing to note is that “Guys” and “Down the hill” are not necessarily from the same phrase. I think we may have confirmation of that somewhere, not sure if it’s fact or speculation—I think @grayhuze touched on this somewhere...

 

[Boxer]

The three FBI agents in that podcast that Margarita posted information from, it seemed the consensus of two was BG took the girls from the point of contact to a predetermined "lair". I've never thought of it in that way before. If that's truly the case, being on RL's private property was planned out in advance by the killer. It makes me wonder all the more now about persons who also lived close by RL's property and all of their asscociations.

Agree. A flat below a cemetery bunkered off by the berms of an old gravel pit, just seems local knowledge to me even though it is possible a stranger could potentially find it and use it.

 

[Falling Down]

The three FBI agents in that podcast that Margarita posted information from, it seemed the consensus of two was BG took the girls from the point of contact to a predetermined "lair". I've never thought of it in that way before. If that's truly the case, being on RL's private property was planned out in advance by the killer. It makes me wonder all the more now about persons who also lived close by RL's property and all of their asscociations.

I agree with those FBI agents and have thought the same since early on.

This set of crimes was planned well in advance, I'd say weeks or possibly even months. I shudder at the thought that it was years in the making, but crazy stuff like that has happened with some organized killers. Makes one wonder, really.

BG had to have known those private properties well in advance, where the private trails led to, timing, etc. Which makes me think he'd been on those private properties at least a few times, if not many times in the past. It makes this case unique, in my mind, not many others like it when you boil it down.

Relatively small area we're talking about, but he somehow found a spot hidden enough out of sight to carry out his fantasy.

JMO

 

[ocval]

“a bill shorter than the baseball hat”

“a painter’s cap”


Interesting

Maybe like this one?

 

[Charlot123]

Just a note. Never saw a hat like this - this brown hat come up in search for painters hat, with ear flaps.

Carhartt Men's L/X Carhartt Brown Cotton/Spandex Ear Flap Cap-A199-BRN - The Home Depot

Yes, and I saw “painter hat with tails”. I don’t think the witness knew the exact name of the hat, painter hat merely stands for a shorter bill- model.

I'm with the group who believes BG was spitting on the bridge.

From the April 22, 2019 release:


The wind was blowing from the west that afternoon, so he would have been spitting to his left. It's also very possible that was what LE collected from the bridge.

This guy could very well be prone to superstitions. It is like OCD, and tics are higher in that group. I Googled spitting three times over left shoulder, most Eastern Europeans have it as a common superstition, and so do Jewish people, and Germans have something interesting (that article is available only to members), and all seem to stem from ancient times, and are for luck. Or people can say certain thing over left shoulder three times as well. It is like with salt. I wonder if he had some odd mannerisms that people noticed. Empty new shoe also has a meaning.
Could he really have come from some small isolated group nearby that kept their superstitions, or else, he made his own?

 

[margarita25]

A few random thoughts:

I’ve been thinking about the comment re: “twist...never seen anything like it in 30 years of my career”...(paraphrasing, if you need exact quote I’ll pull it, please ask )

What on earth could that be? The “thirty years in my career” is making this seem even more dramatic, for lack of a better term at the moment.

Some of these statements are just like, as @skibaboo uses the phrase, “dangling carrots”...if you can’t tell us then why refer to it...

My mind has gone to all kinds of places about this. What could be such a twist that not even LE has ever seen?

Is it something to do with the signature?

Or could it be something as simple as “there was no SA”, so that in itself would be rare considering the victim’s were female? (I doubt that’s it moo)

I know we’ve talked about the “twist” before, but was it with reference to “in my thirty year career” as well? Maybe I missed that or forgot.
I’m sure that’s been mentioned somewhere.

I’d like to see a side by side of the two different quotes re: “twist”, if I am indeed correctly recalling that there are two separate quotes.

—-

Another thought which I mentioned when we first heard the audio of “guys”...how bad is it that they can only get one more word from that.
It must be really graphic.

I’m thinking about, again, the cold SK case I’m working on and one of the SA victims talked about the really vulgar language the perp used during the attack. I’m wondering about this here now.

—-

 

[Falling Down]

One thing to note is that “Guys” and “Down the hill” are not necessarily from the same phrase. I think we may have confirmation of that somewhere, not sure if it’s fact or speculation—I think @grayhuze touched on this somewhere...

Another thing I think is important is the "down the hill" part is muffled and is definitely heavily modified by audio experts. Almost like the phone was in a pocket or somewhere where the microphone was being blocked some, that is a barrier between BG and the microphone. A shirt, other article of clothing maybe, etc. I've never thought "down the hill" sounds like BG would sound like in a conversation.

The "Guys" part makes me wonder if this guy is pretty young, really. I've wondered lately if the guy is a young adult.

JMO

 

[margarita25]

Another thing I think is important is the "down the hill" part is muffled and is definitely heavily modified by audio experts. Almost like the phone was in a pocket or somewhere where the microphone was being blocked some, that is a barrier between BG and the microphone. A shirt, other article of clothing maybe, etc. I've never thought "down the hill" sounds like BG would sound like in a conversation.

The "Guys" part makes me wonder if this guy is pretty young, really. I've wondered lately if the guy is a young adult.

JMO

Important note about the barrier, etc. Thank you for mentioning the audio possibly being heavily modified by the experts. This has been bugging me a lot. I made a long post about this the other day, not sure if you saw it, but long story short, it’s just like cleaning up an image, or copying, etc. - things may be lost or added to speak. I think there’s a chance there’s a “quality” or effect on the audio which adds a certain frequency, so to speak, which MAY have somewhat altered his voice, even if very minutely. I could be very wrong about this, but as I mentioned in a previous post, it’s like when they remaster some classic albums. This is jmo, moo. Again, this may not necessarily be the case, and the professionals may have it as true to the original as it could possibly be. Again, I hear a weird frequency, but that could be a result of the muffling, garbling which is also a result of the phone being in Libby’s pocket (or wherever it was), and also the element of movement, like how when you get those butt dial voice messages of someone walking or in a car, how it sounds weird.

My point in all this, perhaps another review of the audio should be done, of the original, moo.

 

[Falling Down]

Agree. A flat below a cemetery bunkered off by the berms of an old gravel pit, just seems local knowledge to me even though a stranger it is possible a stranger could potentially find it and use it.

Definitely someone who knows the terrain well, and I think he picked the time of year he wanted to do it due to the lack of vegetation in the gorge, I've seen videos YT taken right by where the murders happened and it's terribly overgrown with vegetation during the growing season. Which makes me think he's been there not only "before", but many times before. If I were a betting man I'd say he was there in the days and weeks previous, doing the final planning for his little fantasy.

I keep referring to BG as a phantom, I think he planned this out well in advance, which is a big reason why he hasn't been caught yet. I think he scouted the terrain months in advance, did a lot of people watching, and walked those woods in different parts of the year. He could have been there that weekend, for all we know. The weather around this region was conducive to outdoor activities in the week previous to the murders, he could have waited until the right set of circumstances lined up for him to carry out his little fantasy, making multiple visits to the MHB.

JMO

 

[Evinrude]

A few thoughts, what if the girls did flee, one of the girls lost a shoe or even worse, twisted /broke an ankle?
And I know Im on the committee that believes BG wasnt wearing a hat. Ive looked at more pics again, some altered. Im on the fence. Has anyone looked up “bucket hats or fishing hats”?

 

[margarita25]

Definitely someone who knows the terrain well, and I think he picked the time of year he wanted to do it due to the lack of vegetation in the gorge, I've seen videos YT taken right by where the murders happened and it's terribly overgrown with vegetation during the growing season. Which makes me think he's been there not only "before", but many times before. If I were a betting man I'd say he was there in the days and weeks previous, doing the final planning for his little fantasy.

I keep referring to BG as a phantom, I think he planned this out well in advance, which is a big reason why he hasn't been caught yet. I think he scouted the terrain months in advance, did a lot of people watching, and walked those woods in different parts of the year. He could have been there that weekend, for all we know. The weather around this region was conducive to outdoor activities in the week previous to the murders, he could have waited until the right set of circumstances lined up for him to carry out his little fantasy, making multiple visits to the MHB.

JMO

So, with “fantasy” and “planning”, do you think the motive here was sexual? I’m assuming so, but I don’t want to assume.

If he planned this then this obviously rules out the theory of the girls saying or doing something to enrage him and he snapped.

 

[Falling Down]

Yes, and I saw “painter hat with tails”. I don’t think the witness knew the exact name of the hat, painter hat merely stands for a shorter bill- model.


This guy could very well be prone to superstitions. It is like OCD, and tics are higher in that group. I Googled spitting three times over left shoulder, most Eastern Europeans have it as a common superstition, and so do Jewish people, and Germans have something interesting (that article is available only to members), and all seem to stem from ancient times, and are for luck. Or people can say certain thing over left shoulder three times as well. It is like with salt. I wonder if he had some odd mannerisms that people noticed. Empty new shoe also has a meaning.
Could he really have come from some small isolated group nearby that kept their superstitions, or else, he made his own?

Interesting, and having lived in several states and served in the military, I can back you up on this.

People who live in segregated communities by choice, birth, etc. will share superstitions and mannerisms.

Maybe BG is Mennonite?

JMO

 

[margarita25]

A few thoughts, what if the girls did flee, one of the girls lost a shoe or even worse, twisted /broke an ankle?
And I know Im on the committee that believes BG wasnt wearing a hat. Ive looked at more pics again, some altered. Im on the fence. Has anyone looked up “bucket hats or fishing hats”?

I’ve always wondered if they were running across the creek to get away. I’m not sure that BG planned to take them across the creek? Thoughts?

Falling Down, you’ve been to the scene. If the motive was SA, does geography/logistics in front of the creek without crossing allow for a location that would have been as ideal for, say an SA or just flat out killing, as across the creek? Hope that makes sense. What are your thoughts on all this crossing the creek business?

(Yes I know we are all having the same conversations over and over, what else are we supposed to do? )

 

[Charlot123]

Another thing I think is important is the "down the hill" part is muffled and is definitely heavily modified by audio experts. Almost like the phone was in a pocket or somewhere where the microphone was being blocked some, that is a barrier between BG and the microphone. A shirt, other article of clothing maybe, etc. I've never thought "down the hill" sounds like BG would sound like in a conversation.

The "Guys" part makes me wonder if this guy is pretty young, really. I've wondered lately if the guy is a young adult.

JMO

There is something else. I listened to Jim and Marilyn podcast, the one that @margarita25 so courteously transcribed; I am neither a podcast not TV person, but this podcast had the option to play it at a higher speed, so I put it at x 1.5 and saved the time. But - if you do it, the voices usually sound differently (higher). Except for “down the hill” that changed very little regardless of the speed it was played it. MOO only.

It was strange. I shall find the link to the podcast with this option so you can hear for yourself.

 

[margarita25]

There is something else. I listened to Jim and Marilyn podcast, the one that @margarita25 so courteously transcribed; I am neither a podcast not TV person, but this podcast had the option to play it at a higher speed, so I put it at x 1.5 and saved the time. But - if you do it, the voices usually sound differently (higher). Except for “down the hill” that changed very little regardless of the speed it was played it. MOO only.

It was strange. I shall find the link to the podcast with this option so you can hear for yourself.

Big clarification, thanks but I didn’t transcribe it, it was @Choochoobella who did the transcription, I just brought it forward.

 

[Charlot123]

Interesting, and having lived in several states and served in the military, I can back you up on this.

People who live in segregated communities by choice, birth, etc. will share superstitions and mannerisms.

Maybe BG is Mennonite?

JMO

Maybe. That could explain why there can be few DNA matches, if there is DNA, or matches will be odd and irregular. The group itself might not be keenly into DNA, and who else could match?


A lot of people, but distant and irregular.

 

[margarita25]

Quote from @Choochoobella ’s fabulous transcription:

BBM:

“What would motivate someone to kill these teenage girls?

Jim Clemente gave three possibilities:

The majority of perpetrators who would do something like this are sexually motivated. That's probably the most likely motivation in this case.

Another motivation in child abduction/homicides is greed, where someone is murdered because that person is in the way of a relationship. (They cited Chris Watts' murder of his family because he wanted to be with a new woman as an example of this.)

Finally, some people have a lust for murder, and these are murders without a motive other than the desire to kill.”

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117