Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #119

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I wonder if "the twist" which was stated by LE could possibly be BG's involvement in other unsolved cases? Also, if the evidence is shakey or mostly circumstantial then maybe the DA wants a more solid connection to a POI before an arrest is made? Like a vehicle placing an individual(s) in the area at the time.
 
rypj84 said:
I wonder if "the twist" which was stated by LE could possibly be BG's involvement in other unsolved cases? Also, if the evidence is shakey or mostly circumstantial then maybe the DA wants a more solid connection to a POI before an arrest is made? Like a vehicle placing an individual(s) in the area at the time.
Click to expand...

I would really like to think they are that close.
 
Ozoner said:
LE has created confusion with the two sketches, granted. However, it isn't true that there was an indication of two perps at the early PCs. It's disingenuous to say that there was. In response to queries, LE--who hadn't processed their evidence at that point--stated that they couldn't rule out the possibility of two perps. (Of course they couldn't; they weren't ready to rule anything out at that point.)
Click to expand...
And they still have not ruled out the possibility of two (or more) peeps AFAIK unless you can point me to where they have definitively done that. If you cannot then speculating is ok and should not be ridiculed IMO.
 
Yemelyan said:
Yes, I mentioned this here a few months back. You could spend thousands and thousands of hours building out the family tree by triangulating between really distant cousins and then reach a dead end because the child related to that paternal line does not "exist," having been raised as another man's child.
Click to expand...
Well they would trace the biological line back then presumably find that out when they then came forward down the branches and got no exact match. Then the detective work would have to begin I guess. That's a problem isn't it? I have a friend who was adopted by her grandmother and grew up believing she was her mum, but really it was her oldest sister who was her real mother. She found out when she was 16 I believe.
 
HEY YOU! said:
There has been talk that the words 'guys' and 'down the hill' were from 2 different parts of the conversation that Libby recorded. Also that the girls possibly did not (or could not have) crossed the creek and climbed the hill to where they were killed. Here is a different idea as to how it may have happened:

Girls walk on bridge, Libby takes pic of Abby and video of BG, BG gets closer and asks 'hey guys, where does the trail end?' They answer that it ends right at the end of the bridge where they are. He says, 'thanks, I better turn around and head back.' Then he goes back over the bridge and lays in wait. Girls cross back over, BG comes out and directs them 'down the hill' at that point. This way he does not get wet, girls don't have to climb steep, wet hill. Just a thought.
Click to expand...
JMO, but I think that the words were from two different parts of the conversation and not just a pause in between. I also keep second guessing if they were direct instructions to the girls, or part of a conversation that related to him being there under the guise of looking for something at the bridge. An outdoor adventure related activity is as specific as I can get here.

In reading your theory bbm above, I just need a reminder as to whether there was crime scene tape on the north side of the bridge as well as the south side. From what I recall from early pics and videos, only the south side had the CS tape, which would indicate that the initiation of the crime was unrelated to the north side of the bridge.

Of course, my memory fades after almost three years and I continue to second-guess many things I swore I clearly remember reading very early on that I can no longer find. When you do end up stumbling upon these things and find them again...it is a relief.;)
 
bradfordsleuth said:
JMO, but I think that the words were from two different parts of the conversation and not just a pause in between. I also keep second guessing if they were direct instructions to the girls, or part of a conversation that related to him being there under the guise of looking for something at the bridge. An outdoor adventure related activity is as specific as I can get here.

In reading your theory bbm above, I just need a reminder as to whether there was crime scene tape on the north side of the bridge as well as the south side. From what I recall from early pics and videos, only the south side had the CS tape, which would indicate that the initiation of the crime was unrelated to the north side of the bridge.

Of course, my memory fades after almost three years and I continue to second-guess many things I swore I clearly remember reading very early on that I can no longer find. When you do end up stumbling upon these things and find them again...it is a relief.;)
Click to expand...

I don't remember any except for some near the trailhead parking area.
 
Yemelyan said:
Yes, I mentioned this here a few months back. You could spend thousands and thousands of hours building out the family tree by triangulating between really distant cousins and then reach a dead end because the child related to that paternal line does not "exist," having been raised as another man's child.
Click to expand...

One of my uncle’s matches (who is now of no interest, but at that time was the highest) told me that he did not understand much but hired a genealogist to sort things out. Half a year later, he got a tree, with the name of the father who raised him plus a tree, and the name of the biofather plus his tree. It is doable.

We are living at the time when most adoption records are not sealed, and it is possible to find out the truth. Non-paternal event is a more complicated aspect, but possible to find out.

There are more difficult situations that happen, such as embryo adoption. Go guess what genealogy job is performed there, as the child physically born of that mother, with witnesses and records, is not her biological child. Think of all egg and sperm donors plus surrogate mothers... I only hope that with embryo donation, there is some paper trail. As to sperm donors, they are usually anonymous, but at least other kids born of them often do seek their parents, and would be in Gedmatch.

From my own genealogy work, for my family, I do cross paths with adopted kids. I don’t know how valid my impression is, but dads are usually less careful, and leave trails. Some situations are comic, some, tragic, but they are found.

With moms, it might be more difficult. The shame, and the ostracism on behalf of their own biological families, and also on behalf of their then-husbands, if they exist, is shocking. Some of these moms simply disappear (commit suicide, maybe?), or start drinking. I have heard of several very tragic stories. And it is surprising how bad the “true” biological families are to such kids, the products of their mom’s affairs. I though it had to do with inheritance, but no, often it is merely about the hatred of a young woman who once fell in love and bore that child, the product of love, and then gave him up for adoption. It is all about the societal expectations from a woman and a man, the societal norms, and I wonder, has anyone else noticed this disparity of views and attitudes, towards men and women, mothers and fathers, in cases of adoptees?
 
rypj84 said:
I wonder if "the twist" which was stated by LE could possibly be BG's involvement in other unsolved cases? Also, if the evidence is shakey or mostly circumstantial then maybe the DA wants a more solid connection to a POI before an arrest is made? Like a vehicle placing an individual(s) in the area at the time.
Click to expand...

The perp being a SK is luck, not twist. MOO.

I wonder if the twist is, “who the witnesses saw - and described - that angry guy, he was merely walking around, while his (friend, brother, father) was killing the girls under the bridge”.

Or worse, “the witness was meeting her date, who was late. He was late because he was cleaning himself after killing the girls, but she did not know it and unknowingly, provided him with the alibi”.


MOO.


In fact, the biggest alibi was provided by the police who suspended the search for the night. The killer(s) had ample time to clean after himself (themselves).
 
Ozoner said:
LE has created confusion with the two sketches, granted. However, it isn't true that there was an indication of two perps at the early PCs. It's disingenuous to say that there was. In response to queries, LE--who hadn't processed their evidence at that point--stated that they couldn't rule out the possibility of two perps. (Of course they couldn't; they weren't ready to rule anything out at that point.)
Click to expand...

I think that there might have been only one killer, but LE seems to be positive that someone knows, and covers up, or keeps silent. In this respect, there are at least two involved. And maybe more.
 
stattlich1 said:
MOO, speculation on my part. Pure speculation.

I believe there to be two perps involved, possibly only one actual murderer, but two, or more, involved.

-LE knows who the killer(s) are.
-The killer(s) are from Delphi.
-The killer(s) know the bridge area extremely well.
-The killer(s) are still hiding in plain sight.
-The killer(s) had planned the murders and were able to contaminate the scene such that
definitive proof has yet to be established OR
-LE is confounded as to which one of the evil demons actually murdered the girls. (I think this may be the issue, in terms of an impending trial.)
-This is NOT a cold case.

As far as the crime scene, it appears there was something unusual about it. My guess is
1. Items left at the scene that were bizarre.
2. the girls' bodies arranged in some sick, twisted fashion.
3. The girls bodies violated in such manner as I wish not to discuss.
4. A combination of all these.

I am convinced LE knows who did this. It would be nearly impossible to convince me otherwise, though I would surely entertain the argument :)

MOO
Click to expand...

I think the murderer is either from Delphi, or lives nearby.

Two versions - either he knew the girls, or he is simply a version of BR from another thread - deeply flawed, but totally protected by his family and bored out of his mind - are 50/50. MOO.

I don’t see any hair, I see a hat, but I can believe that it is a young athlete, who used to be idolized in this small community, and starts failing in a big world. Why not? And the murders happen at the moment when he realizes that there are smarter, handsomer, more talented people around. And this is when he is snubbed by the girls.

Another version, someone who is quiet, good-looking and bossed by the wife, maybe grew up in a military family, maybe half-immigrant. (Hence the DNA without matches). He is so quiet that his family can not imagine him being the perp.

Not sure the LE knows. This is my concern.
 
tresir2012 said:
An additional perp from Delphi has been charged today in the Nicole Bowen case. See my signature for link to Nicole's thread.
Click to expand...


I went to the thread - last things posted April 2019, not getting anything from a search from the topic. I am I misunderstanding something?
 
I've been pondering the drug retaliation theory the past few days. I really am not one to believe in complicated conspiracy crime scenarios and I still don't think this crime was some pre-planned attack where the girls were targeted days in advance.

I was wondering what the drug gangs were like in the area since Carroll County is a white bread Midwest place. When I started looking at the gangs that were likely active in the area, what I found were drug users which tended to have ties to white supremacists organizations based on tattoos and other symbolism. Some of these guys have been to jail and that maybe where they have made their white supremacist gang affiliations.

In California, we have white gangs like the Hell's Angels, Peckerwoods, and the Aryan Brotherhood. I don't know what white supremacist gangs operate in Indiana but based on what I have seen recently, there is plenty of this kind of activity in the Delphi area.

Is it possible that one of these affiliated members saw Libby that day and attacked her due to the past actions of her family member, yes. Do I think that is likely, no. But, it is these kinds of organized criminal gang members that MIGHT recognize her and retaliate.

The worry over a retaliation attack could also explain what the family acted so quickly to call in help for a search. I know my family would not have called the community and the police to do a search if I was a few hours late to meet them. They would have walked the trails for hours. Called friends. Searched town but they would not have involved others until probably the next day.

I can see now why people might think that the Delphi murders and the Flora fire could be related if a member(s) of a white supremacist affiliated group was involved.

What I don't see in the picture of BG is any clothing, tattoos or other visual cues that he is associated with a group like this. I just see an average white guy.
 
Sorry for some reason I can not copy the post from the previous thread nr 118.

Hence, I had to copy and quote @Awsi Dooger’s post from someone’s answer. Sorry...


I've been trying to rationalize the current 8 month radio silence as a positive. It certainly is preferable to Doug Carter issuing confusing and contradictory statements every few months. There is frequent DNA discussion on Reddit, apparently moreso than here. Yesterday in a thread there a poster very well versed in genealogical DNA was talking about 5th cousins and how long it would take to piece together toward the suspect, if that's all you had. The high profile cases that have been solved by this method have been very fortunate, with close enough proximity like 3rd cousins or nearer.

I thought I remembered reading something that broke down each category by how much backfitting it required. I found that link today:

Most People of European Ancestry Can Be Identified From a Relative’s DNA

This is the key paragraph:

“A second-cousin match is the sweet spot where it’s easy,” says Kennett, whereas a fourth-cousin match might take “thousands and thousands of hours’ work.” Identifying someone through a single third-cousin match is somewhere in the middle: It’s not trivial, but it’s very much possible."

***

I hope that's what is going on in this case behind the scenes...a painstaking 4th cousin family tree build. It's not likely, but IMO that is by far the best hope. In reading about every solved case via genealogical DNA the aspect that stands out is how frequently the term 3rd cousin is used. For more than a year I've been thinking that the related software and methods have got to be improving at rapid rate, to the point the more difficult cases can be attempted. They aren't going to try that type of thing without either high profile urgency, or plenty of money, or most likely a combination of the two. Delphi would seemingly be a great candidate...IF they have sufficient DNA that likely sources from the killer.

I hope that's the case because I'm sick of arguing about the particulars. For example, on another site I received a PM indicating that the hair being drawn on Bridge Guy is intended to mirror a specific suspect. That's why they are so adamant about it...they are trying to draw their guy onto the still frame and convince law enforcement to run around in circles and react. The PMer said not all of the posters are involved in that type of specificity -- that many simply believe it is hair alone -- but the ones taking it furthest own that bias. It makes perfect sense to me because straying from probability to greatest extreme almost always involves agenda fanaticism.

I knew it had to be something like that because one of the related posts matter of factly emphasized local guy. I was thinking...what does hair alone have to do with whether or not he was local?

It does if you're not trying to make a point so much as peg a name
Click to expand...


I needed one thing from that post, the article.

I find the name of the post grossly misleading. Here is why.


Look at the map of Europe. Eastern Europe is much larger than Western one.

And of Eastern Europe, Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are the largest territory.

Yet of these three countries, 23@me and Ancestry, do not accept DNA tests.

There is a list of the countries they don’t accept packages from.

On the other side, of course, it costs a lot for the citizens of these three countries to do DNA tests.

And god forbid BG is of Bosnian emigrant stock! I bet they won’t find any meaningful matches because war-ravaged Bosnia is poor.

Even worse if his parents are Kosovar. Good luck searching Gedmatch.

So it will all work if BG is an average Western European.

Imagine he is half-Indian. I recently saw the genome of a person who is half-Indian and half-European. All counties of British part were listed, as to India, it was “Indian, Pakistan, Afghanistan”. A joke...

And god forbid he is from Northern China, because his genome is read as “Asian”. In the meantime, in our school district, 72% of kids are from China, Korea and India. And they, too, are curious about their backgrounds.

So I wish the BG is of typical West European background. In any other situation, the DNA might be silent.


ETA: here

https://eu.customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/204712980-What-countries-do-you-ship-to

I was wrong about Belarus. But what if the guy is of Serbian extraction? Russian? Ukrainian? Kosovar?

ETA: does anyone see Mexico here?
 
Last edited:
This is one of Kelsi's better videos. We’re starved for facts but I found an interesting little nugget.

“The night before, they were actually painting in their room. After having a girls’ night, we all kind of hung out downstairs. We were watching movies with some of my friends and it was a really good night.”

Libby had asked Kelsi a few times during the week if she would take them to the bridge on snow make-up day and Kelsi told her no, to do other things. It’s entirely possible that one of Kelsi’s friends said WTTE “Hey Libby, what are you going to do on your day off tomorrow?” and Libby could have replied that she wanted to go to the bridge. If such an exchange took place, I don't think it would be overreaching to suggest that’s how another person ultimately found out that they may go to the bridge and decided to take a chance of them being there.

@ 6:33
 
Charlot123 said:
Sorry for some reason I can not copy the post from the previous thread nr 118.

Hence, I had to copy and quote @Awsi Dooger’s post from someone’s answer. Sorry...





I needed one thing from that post, the article.

I find the name of the post grossly misleading. Here is why.


Look at the map of Europe. Eastern Europe is much larger than Western one.

And of Eastern Europe, Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are the largest territory.

Yet of these three countries, 23@me and Ancestry, do not accept DNA tests.

There is a list of the countries they don’t accept packages from.

On the other side, of course, it costs a lot for the citizens of these three countries to do DNA tests.

And god forbid BG is of Bosnian emigrant stock! I bet they won’t find any meaningful matches because war-ravaged Bosnia is poor.

Even worse if his parents are Kosovar. Good luck searching Gedmatch.

So it will all work if BG is an average Western European.

Imagine he is half-Indian. I recently saw the genome of a person who is half-Indian and half-European. All counties of British part were listed, as to India, it was “Indian, Pakistan, Afghanistan”. A joke...

And god forbid he is from Northern China, because his genome is read as “Asian”. In the meantime, in our school district, 72% of kids are from China, Korea and India. And they, too, are curious about their backgrounds.

So I wish the BG is of typical West European background. In any other situation, the DNA might be silent.


ETA: here

https://eu.customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/204712980-What-countries-do-you-ship-to

I was wrong about Belarus. But what if the guy is of Serbian extraction? Russian? Ukrainian? Kosovar?

ETA: does anyone see Mexico here?
Click to expand...

Sketch is pretty clearly what ever the DNA of locals are. see below.
His accent also seems very local. Carrol county is about as white as it gets, 96 percent Western European.

Carrol County Indiana
As of the 2010 United States Census, there were 20,155 people, 7,900 households, and 5,678 families residing in the county.[19] The population density was 54.1 inhabitants per square mile (20.9/km2). There were 9,472 housing units at an average density of 25.4 per square mile (9.8/km2).[6] The racial makeup of the county was 96.8% white, 0.2% American Indian, 0.2% black or African American, 0.1% Asian, 1.7% from other races, and 1.0% from two or more races.
 
almagata said:
I've been pondering the drug retaliation theory the past few days. I really am not one to believe in complicated conspiracy crime scenarios and I still don't think this crime was some pre-planned attack where the girls were targeted days in advance.

I was wondering what the drug gangs were like in the area since Carroll County is a white bread Midwest place. When I started looking at the gangs that were likely active in the area, what I found were drug users which tended to have ties to white supremacists organizations based on tattoos and other symbolism. Some of these guys have been to jail and that maybe where they have made their white supremacist gang affiliations.

In California, we have white gangs like the Hell's Angels, Peckerwoods, and the Aryan Brotherhood. I don't know what white supremacist gangs operate in Indiana but based on what I have seen recently, there is plenty of this kind of activity in the Delphi area.

Is it possible that one of these affiliated members saw Libby that day and attacked her due to the past actions of her family member, yes. Do I think that is likely, no. But, it is these kinds of organized criminal gang members that MIGHT recognize her and retaliate.

The worry over a retaliation attack could also explain what the family acted so quickly to call in help for a search. I know my family would not have called the community and the police to do a search if I was a few hours late to meet them. They would have walked the trails for hours. Called friends. Searched town but they would not have involved others until probably the next day.

I can see now why people might think that the Delphi murders and the Flora fire could be related if a member(s) of a white supremacist affiliated group was involved.

What I don't see in the picture of BG is any clothing, tattoos or other visual cues that he is associated with a group like this. I just see an average white guy.
Click to expand...

I was thinking about white supremacists, but it makes no sense.

Libby and Abby were white, moreover, Libby’s last name was German! Can you imagine any Neo-Nazi, or especially Aryan Brotherhood killing a blonde girl with the last name of German? They are very much sold on these issues. And like their protagonists, they probably feel that women should stay at home and bear kids, but they won’t kill two potential future white mothers.

It is another thing if Libby found out that one of these groups was involved in Flora fire, but it is too far-reached.
 
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