Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[dotr]

Sorry if already posted.
Feb 12 2020 rbbm
Delphi murders: After 3 years with no arrests, police say case isn't cold
''With an unsolved case that is three years old, such as the Delphi slayings, even with the use of DNA "you're not going to get a solution to a case, unless somebody is in the database," Pagliaro said.

State Police officials won't say whether they have collected DNA samples from the Delphi crime scene.

However, the advent of DNA testing, evidence databases, artificial intelligence and still-emerging crime-solving techniques, makes it more possible to solve cold cases, Pagliaro said. In one famous case, Joseph DeAngelo, the suspected "Golden State killer," was arrested in 2018, decades after those murders, after investigators matched his DNA with that of a relative found on a genealogical website.

"Even a case that's very old can ultimately be solved," Pagliaro said.

"If additional information goes into one of the databases, then there could be a hit and it could solve the crime. If there's additional information gained through new technology, then you may be able to solve a crime."

Few crime scene details
Investigators in the Delphi slayings have been reluctant to release detailed information from the crime scene, such as whether DNA or other evidence was collected, how the two girls died and when the slayings likely occurred.

Riley, of the State Police, said it's "kind of like a poker game. You don't want to throw out all your cards at the start."

"We don't want to put out any more information than we feel the public needs to know," he said. "When we have the person we want, we want to know what they know about the case. … That's why we've held back on the information that we've given out."

 

[Charlot123]

Absolutely. That is the worst and most disgraceful aspect of the case currently. There are a group of people who can't let go of an insistence he has to be local, with the most severe definition of local, and they are determined to push that theme including hounding their suspect(s) throughout his life if police don't do anything themselves.

That group deserves to be strung up and dangled from the Delphi tower.

Month after month they take it to new absurdities, just because law enforcement isn't caving in toward their guy. Now the car is a red herring. Oh sure, Doug Carter and Tobe Leazenby just scream red herring. They can't express coherent thoughts but I can't think of two greater masters of slight of hand. I'm sure the John Walsh segment will be another parlor game.

Cases like this remain unsolved for basic reasons. It's not the guy down the street. And that video didn't give us anything identifiable, like a birthmark or a tattoo or even a corporate logo. He's not 7 feet tall to cut the playing field by 99.99%. It's stranger on stranger with everything generic. Cases like this become famous due to difficulty not ease.

Now, to be honest. I did not say that the killer/s were not local. Truth is, I don't know. I think there is something prompting LE to state the person knew the place well. DC did not tell us his reasoning.

Your post is directed at a certain poster who merely wonders if local young people could have been involved. I don't see any video evidence to what he says, but with the BG video being so poor, someone might see the hair, or the hat, or the hood. I don't think people who are suspected by that group you are mentioning are involved because they seem to be of ambitious/preppy type, career-oriented, and their physical parameters don't match, either. But at least, for this situation we should probably blame the sketch artist who doodled something a 3-year-old would do and topped it with curly hair.

I don't give much weight to that NBG sketch, but it comes from the police, so that poster's question is at least reasonable.

The other question would be, what is the proof? Did anyone see those very tall young men with the girls, ever? On that day? Near the place? Messages? Like you, I think these locals are outliers in height and weight, and sort of local celebrities, too noticeable to walk around killing, but again, the question should be directed at LE.

But - we have another serious situation. Certain YouTubers posting accusations against the family of two men, the father and the son. Someone is posting horrible YouTube videos, with no backing whatsoever. Just two photos and statements that they killed the girls. One of them looks "like" the BG? Maybe. 50% of Indiana men does. MOO.

And, we don't even know if they resemble BG. We don't know their heights. If the YouTubers think they were involved, they should post motives, theory, proofs. Something. I mean, we have 2nd amendment and all, but how far can people go these days without any retribution? And with general paranoia (I have seen posters accusing DC of being the BG, even that happens), with unwillingness to use Snopes, with lack of critical thinking, it may haunt these two people 10 years after true BG will be caught.

BTW, I think DC should recognize that people are suspicious without the reason, or maybe the case has been dragging on for so long, and stop throwing riddles and parables because they don't help. MOO.

 

[TL4S]

Delphi murders: What we know about the case

[When asked whether they could be looking for more than one person, Riley said: "We're not ruling out anything at this point in time." It's for that reason that investigators don't want to completely discount the earlier police sketch of what looks to be an older suspect. "There still the possibility of a second person involved in this case," Riley said. "We don't want to say the old sketch is not involved, we just want to say that this new sketch is more indicative of what we're looking for at this time."]

 

[Mike Britton]

> I think that he has at some point in time has offered assistance with the investigation (not in investigative way) and through this tactic tried to find out 'what they knew.'

I've always attributed this to serial killers' tendencies to insert themselves into the investigation. Always thought this was LE guessing this offender would do the same.

Admittedly I like the idea that someone who claims to be the offender has been in touch with LE. It would mean something real is happening.

 

[watcher9]

I think at the beginning LE thought this would be a slam-dunk case once they viewed Libby's video of the actual killer. Such a smart girl! Some frames were isolated and two generated pictures were shown to the public in the belief he would be quickly identified and an arrest could be made. A week later an audio clip of "down the hill" was also released and they waited for the tip. Five months later the drawing of BG was released. They waited again for the right tip but it didn't happen.

LE have looked into different cases but eventually eliminated or downplayed the suspect in several of them that we know of. Some are listed on the link below.

After reviewing the case files again and again, LE finally decided to release the second drawing of BG along with another audio clip of "guys"two years later in the hopes that it might finally trigger the right tip. They also brought up the car seen parked near the trail that they would like info on. Apparently, they may be still waiting on the right tips.

I believe they may have DNA and other evidence that could be beneficial with an arrest, but they do not have anyone in their sights at this time.

Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German - Wikipedia

 

[Charlot123]

> I think that he has at some point in time has offered assistance with the investigation (not in investigative way) and through this tactic tried to find out 'what they knew.'

I've always attributed this to serial killers' tendencies to insert themselves into the investigation. Always thought this was LE guessing this offender would do the same.

Admittedly I like the idea that someone who claims to be the offender has been in touch with LE. It would mean something real is happening.

Who is the “he”? The one of the couple accused in the YouTube videos, or the local youngsters? Who do you mean by “he”?

Maybe it is suspicious. Maybe not. We all are here, yearning to know what DC knows - does it make us suspicious? I don’t think so. (I blame the day when I read about very possible DNA existence in this case, but now I am hooked. Doesn’t make me involved).

There are local gossipers, there are people who are blabbers, there are dozens of versions of what could have happened. People are discussing them.

Or, maybe the real BG doesn’t need to ask the LE these questions, because he is professionally more aware of the situation?

I’d rather suspect someone who is shorter, somewhat older, looks very generic, and could have inner access to the information, you know? Whose behavior clearly changed after February 14th.

(Rather than a giant with very distinctive hair and...sorry, even if he loses 100 lbs, his bone structure will still be different. Plus, is he a hunter, a fisherman? These things still stay).

No, I don’t mean DC or Tobe or Kim Riley. But there is a whole list of known POIs to choose from when I say the person could have been closer to the investigation to start with and didn’t need to ask questions.

I am thinking, usually, Occam’s razor principle works. But here, things went astray with that April conference. Because before, people were considering certain logical options, someone from the Packers, someone close to one of the girls, or maybe a druggie, a transient, a SK?

Here is I think what happened. The LE have own list of POIs. It is short. And they are not quite sure themselves. But close. So they did a “dragnet”, sort of. The sketch is from one person, the voice from another, the video from the third one. Plus the religion, plus the shack. They threw darts in several directions.

(Hoping someone would cave in). No one did. But as the result, the Occam’s razor has been blunted to the extreme and we here can’t use it.

So I think this case will not be solved by the armchair detectives, even if they visit Delphi ))).

I am going back to the DNA. I assume it exists. Knowing how easy it is to collect DNA from anyone... don’t tell me they need a match in CODIS or GEDMATCH.

They probably have a match. But they can’t use it. Why?

I don’t think the LE are covering up someone, this would be extremely stupid. They’d risk ending up in jail.

MOO. They simply can’t use the DNA.

So why the DNA could be unusable?

Version one. The person is smart, they know he knows about DNA, they are unsure the DNA has not been planted.

Version two. The chain of custody has been broken. Someone who delivered or handled the DNA is on the short list. Someone walked into the room, someone was sitting at the next table.

And this is what I think happened. I know that the lawyer may contest anything in the courtroom. But, for every smart lawyer, there is a smart prosecutor. And, novelty methods are used.

But, broken chain of custody makes DNA unusable. Period. And I hope this has not happened.

This is why they might have asked someone for three samples. They probably are testing different areas from the crime scene, soil, footwear. Trying to understand whose DNA is the correct one. To find another matching DNA, maybe. This is why Paul Hole said it was a long way.

If the malicious killer inserted himself into the investigation and it rendered DNA unusable, I feel very sympathetic towards the LE. Not even a mistake, but a horribly unlucky situation. Can happen to anyone.

MOO. Good luck to LE.

 

[carbuff]

What's the source on Kelsi having her DNA taken more than once? Is that directly from her?

 

[JnRyan]

Yes, we know that Kelsi loaned her jacket that day and I can see taking a DNA sample from her to be able to rule out her DNA profile. What I don't understand is taking three samples. Three implies to me that they did not trust the results that they had gotten from the prior two tests.

They were resubmitting evidence as late as December 2018 to labs for retesting. (They may have done it since then, too, but that is the last I saw in media.) If evidence is submitted to different lab - FBI as opposed to the state lab, for example - that new lab may want to run their own DNA test on family members.

 

[gregjrichards]

It is Thursday here in the U.K and it’s hard to believe three years have passed since the murders of Abigail and Liberty. I know it is hard not to feel despondent about there being no arrest yet but please never give up hope that justice will be done.

Abigail and Liberty and their families are in my thoughts and prayers today and everyday.

If you have any information about this case please contact the tip line via phone or email or contact crime stoppers USA anonymously.

The photo below is a sketch of the person law enforcement believe may have committed the murders of Abigail and Liberty.

If you have any information about a tip please do not post information about it here or anywhere online please just send it to law enforcement.

Abigail and Liberty TIPS Delphi Homicide Tipline at 844-459-5786 abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com Thank you.

Crime stoppers USA anonymous tips Contact Us

 

[Rossymom]

I still remember how unseasonably warm it was on that day! We are getting a healthy snow storm right now and Delphi is taking a hit.
I hope tomorrow brings headlines that “Today is the Day”.

 

[JnRyan]

Episode 3 of HLN's "Down the Hill Podcast" is now out.
https://www.downthehillpodcast.com/

 

[BNA]

With the third anniversary of the murders upon us, I have been reflecting on what drew me to this case.

I know that different people were drawn to the case in different ways. Some long-time WS folks were probably drawn to the case when the first thread popped up. Others were probably drawn by the presser last April. Still others came when searching for more information about an article they had read.

For me, it was the hefty reward offer made in the first weeks after the murder.

I frequently go back to a couple of videos I saw at that time. I am not going to post them. But I am suggesting that it might be a real good idea to go and take a look (or another look) at both of them. Let me describe them briefly.

The first video that I saw, the one that was my introduction to the case, involved DC and the person who was adding a big sum of $ to the reward. Both spoke in that video.

The second video came a little later on, and involved an interview of that person offering the reward and some of his buddies that were standing with him. I have been particularly intrigued by how that person described what he was told by DC. I think you will be similarly intrigued when you see it.

Neither video is all that hard to find. I suggest that you start by searching Delphi reward, or something like that...and then look at videos that were made around that time that fit my description.

I am not naming that person for fear that it might be interpreted as a rules violation, if you catch my drift.

 

[Falling Down]

> I think that he has at some point in time has offered assistance with the investigation (not in investigative way) and through this tactic tried to find out 'what they knew.'

I've always attributed this to serial killers' tendencies to insert themselves into the investigation. Always thought this was LE guessing this offender would do the same.

Admittedly I like the idea that someone who claims to be the offender has been in touch with LE. It would mean something real is happening.

Makes me wonder if BG has been in contact, which would mean that in order to identify himself as BG he'd have to know a detail or few details of the case that only LE and people close to the investigation would know.

DC said some time ago something to the effect that the killer is interested in what LE knows, something to that effect. "Wants to know what we know", may be the quote but I don't have a link handy. "You want to know what we know...", may be the quote.

JMO

 

[155etta]

With the third anniversary of the murders upon us, I have been reflecting on what drew me to this case.

I know that different people were drawn to the case in different ways. Some long-time WS folks were probably drawn to the case when the first thread popped up. Others were probably drawn by the presser last April. Still others came when searching for more information about an article they had read.

For me, it was the hefty reward offer made in the first weeks after the murder.

I frequently go back to a couple of videos I saw at that time. I am not going to post them. But I am suggesting that it might be a real good idea to go and take a look (or another look) at both of them. Let me describe them briefly.

The first video that I saw, the one that was my introduction to the case, involved DC and the person who was adding a big sum of $ to the reward. Both spoke in that video.

The second video came a little later on, and involved an interview of that person offering the reward and some of his buddies that were standing with him. I have been particularly intrigued by how that person described what he was told by DC. I think you will be similarly intrigued when you see it.

Neither video is all that hard to find. I suggest that you start by searching Delphi reward, or something like that...and then look at videos that were made around that time that fit my description.

I am not naming that person for fear that it might be interpreted as a rules violation, if you catch my drift.

I couldn't find the second one. I did however find a photo of a much smaller donor who resembles NBG somewhat. MOO

 

[crhedBngr]

Thinking of Abby and Libby, along with the rest of you.

May they soon get the justice they deserve.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, we know that Kelsi loaned her jacket that day and I can see taking a DNA sample from her to be able to rule out her DNA profile. What I don't understand is taking three samples. Three implies to me that they did not trust the results that they had gotten from the prior two tests.

Not necessarily. You know, 23@me is one thing, but if a person is doing a serious genetic testing, one hospital works with one lab, another one, with something different. Depending on where they submitted the samples.

 

[JudgeJudi]

It's hard to believe that this is the third anniversary. To commemorate the occasion, I'm dedicating this beautiful song to Abby and Libby's families.

 

[Mike Britton]

Makes me wonder if BG has been in contact, which would mean that in order to identify himself as BG he'd have to know a detail or few details of the case that only LE and people close to the investigation would know.
JMO

Warning: heavy speculation below.

While it was good drama, the April PC sounded scripted, like something provided to DC by profiler trainees. "He's a serial murderer, so he wants to insert himself into the investigation so he can find out what we know."

I suppose it's possible he contacted them, but nothing like a note. Of course he wants to know. Every mention of breakthroughs in the area of forensic science probably kills him, kicks in his urge to abuse drugs and alcohol in order to cope.

That's why he was on the bridge in the first place. He's a powder keg of volatile brutality and vanity.

Young dudes express themselves. I don't think millennials / Gen Z really style themselves as people who take easily to hiding in plain sight without some kind of self expressive medium. Maybe he has enough creative passion in his brutal pathology to communicate his frustrations through mediums like Twitter and Instagram.

Look for Twitter timelines containing retweets of content that tell a story of someone who is scared and accused—for real, or in his own head. Someone who looks like one of the sketches, and has been tipped in multiple times for Delphi. Someone whose timeline has these qualities and who quits Twitter / Facebook / Instagram, or deletes his account in disgust.

Our offender wants to live a normal life. He wants to ease the anxiety over being caught and exposed for his crimes. DC taunted him with some real emotion on this, remember?

"What will your loved ones think when they find out you killed two little girls? What kind of coward does something like that?"

This was a crescendo of brilliant shaming by whomever put the PC together. There's no way he can hide from the truth—but there's also no way he can live with it without evidence of his turmoil leaking out into his life.

All we have to do is notice the signs.

 

[k-mac]

checking in
on this 3rd anniversary
never forgotten, precious Abigail and Liberty
let this be the year for justice xx

 

[JudgeJudi]

The two contrasting sketches led some to wonder if there was more than one person involved in the killings. “We’re not sure about that,” Leazenby said Thursday when asked whether two people were involved in the crime.

He said "bridge guy" had to know where to take the girls to kill them in a place concealed from the public's sight, and the spot along the creek would not be common knowledge to outsiders.

ISP Kim Riley said they have two troopers assigned to the Delphi killings, as well as FBI agents assigned to the case.

Leazenby said Carroll County Sheriff's Office has two deputies assigned to the case, and Delphi also has officers assigned to it.

But the investigators assigned to the Delphi killings' case also carry a normal caseload of investigations, Leazenby said.

Anna Williams said, “The anniversaries are difficult” .

In years past, police held news conferences on the anniversary of the girls' killings. But not this year.

“There’s nothing new to report," Riley said, explaining why there is not a news conference this year. “Every year we’ve had something to report.”

'I'm absolutely hopeful.' On anniversary of Delphi killings, community has faith next tip leads to justice