Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[megsan]

Does anyone know who put up the trail sign? Carter's"first day" comment keeps popping up in my mind. I definitely think it means something to the killer.

 

[tresir2012]

Interesting. Seems to be the same Charles Gerard, but he died of Lou Gehrig’s disease in 2005. A big local donor, it seems. His mom’s maiden name drew my attention. The same Mary? So who would be staring at her name? I understand there were no direct relatives left.

Charles Gerard (Deceased), Delphi, IN Indiana

ETA: the same Mary I (Timmons) Gerard, the same Charles Gerard. But how could he donate the land in 2008 if he died in 2005?

He died before his mother and bequeathed the land in his will according to the obit. Not sure about the 2008 date, but it may have been tied up with his estate in some way until after his mother's death in 2006. Interesting about the name. Good catch.

 

[tresir2012]

Thank you! Had been looking for information on who Mary I Gerard was

Thank you! I had been looking for information on who Mary I. Gerard was.

DelphiTimes.net

This was in the Delphi Times recently. I will add the link above.

"NICHES Land Trust Celebrates 25 Years!
2/3/2020--Lafayette, Indiana--Since 1995, NICHES Land Trust has been working locally to protect, restore and sustain Northern Indiana’s ecosystems by providing habitat for native species and offering natural places for the education, appreciation and enjoyment of current and future generations.
The beginning of NICHES came on July 29th, 1994 in Lafayette, Indiana when founding members Harry Potter, Persis Newman, and Susan Ulrich met to discuss a growing local interest in protecting the quickly vanishing natural areas in the region. A big step forward for the organization happened in March of 1995 when Sycamore Audubon Society held an event to promote the idea of starting a land trust. After hearing from representatives of other established land trusts in the state, a sign-up sheet was passed around for those interested in working to form a similar group locally. Many signed on including Mike Dana, NICHES first VP, Rod Evans, the first treasurer, and other founding board members Susan Horn, Don Bickel, Greg Shaner, and Brian Tunis. Later that year, NICHES Land Trust was officially incorporated and by the end of 1996, it was up and running managing two donated properties totaling 24 acres.
Twenty-five years later, NICHES has grown to protect over 3,500 acres of land across 40+ properties and operates in a 13-county service area (headquartered in Tippecanoe Co). Founding member, Susan Ulrich, “It is amazing what has happened since we formed NICHES. It has far exceeded our expectations. NICHES takes pride in not only acquiring and protecting land from development, but also rigorously stewarding it to maximize its ecological potential. They seek to bring balance back to local ecosystems by removing invasive species, reintroducing periodic fires, managing deer populations, and fostering sensitive native plant species. In some cases, they have gone to the lengths of introducing new genetics to isolated orchid populations through hand pollination.
Throughout the organization’s history, they have heavily relied on the community being invested and playing an active role in their work. For its first 12 years, NICHES was completely run by volunteers until Executive Director, Gus Nyberg, was hired as their first employee in 2007. He shares, “This year is NICHES 25th year of working to make a difference in our community, acquiring land, creating habitat for native plants and animals as well as creating places for people to explore, grow, and connect to the natural world. We have a lot of events planned for this year to celebrate. But it won’t all be play, we will be busy working at the preserves, reducing invasive species cover, implementing controlled burns, tending rare plants, and restoring habitats.”
The final piece of the land conservation puzzle is to share the places they protect with the community. Throughout the year, NICHES hosts a number of outreach and education events to bring the community together around the work they do. One particularly meaningful event for NICHES Volunteer and Outreach Coordinator, Sam Cody, is hosting two weeks of Summer Adventure Camp for kids ages, 11-14 years old in June. He recounts, “Watching young eyes light up with excitement while getting muddy and having fun out on the properties is what gives me hope for the future of local conservation. The natural places we protect are perhaps one of the greatest sanctuaries and instinctive sources of inspiration for people of all ages in our community. It’s truly a humbling thing to see how far this organization has gone in the last 25 years, but it will take a village to keep the momentum going and bring these preserves back to the state they need to be in. It’s all public land and its continued health and vitality into the future will rely on the hearts and hands of the public. Getting to open children’s eyes to the beauty that exists in their own backyards is a small, but nevertheless important, step towards that ultimate goal.”
NICHES would like to thank the community; without your support they could not have protected so many acres of local natural areas. Because of you, NICHES’ future looks bright! Join one of their celebration events this year and make it out to some of NICHES 40+ properties to see firsthand what it’s all about.
Come hear from NICHES founding members at their Annual Meeting scheduled for February 15, 2020 from 4-6 pm at Ross Camp Dining Hall in West Lafayette, Indiana. RSVPs are not required but are appreciated by calling 765-423-1605 or emailing niches@nicheslandtrust.org.
(Editor's Note: In Delphi NICHES property includes the Mary I. Gerard Preserve accessible from the High Bridge Trail.)

--PHOTO BY JULIE RUBSAM--
NICHES 2020 Board Group: Photo by Julie Rubsam. This is a photo of current and past NICHES board members. Back Row: Jason Rakoczy (current), Dan Towery, Guillermo Pardillo, Bill Herbert, Joan Mohr Samuels, George Parker, Dan McCain, Bill McFee (current), Susan Horn, Lynn Corson. Front Row: Trent Hanthorn (current), Susan Ulrich, Bonnie Maxwell, Shirley Burd."

 

[What if...]

.

I think so, too. Like ignoring the original sketch and spending a few months on the sketch that first released. Over 2 years later LE goes back to the original sketch. I almost wonder if the volume of tips overwhelmed them and then they had the massive task force to manage in the beginning.

I agree with you both that whatever sent LE down the wrong path happened very early on. Whether or not it had anything to do with the early warrants, I have no idea, but as quickly as those warrants were produced, they had to have had something more solid than a hunch to get a judge to sign off on them.
I would love to know the what, when, and where of what the witness saw that produced the NBG sketch. MOO, I have a feeling that whatever that witness saw may not have been near the trails at all. That would explain part of why it wasn’t given much weight in the beginning, and may also explain LE’s comment about believing the killer “got around quickly” (not the exact quote)

 

[Ozoner]

This is why I don’t think it was SA. Or else, someone very disorganized started a SA and someone very organized cleaned up after him.

But here is the part of DC’s rhetorics I don’t get. Several times he called the case “evil”. And then says, that the killer has conscience left? How?

BBM
LE has stated that the crime scene yielded enough evidence to convict if they ever figure out who BG is, so it doesn't sound like it was cleaned up. However, I would still classify BG as organized. Calmly ordering the girls "down the hill" is not the act of a disorganized offender; it also seems that he had a rape kit or kill kit with him.

Regarding the sketches... I have a funny feeling that the BG#1 sketch was basically an artist's rendering of the BG photos/video, while the BG#2 sketch came from an actual eyewitness, and was initially rejected by LE because it bears little resemblance to the BG photos/video.

Obviously MOO

BBM
I think it could have been just that. I don't know whether eyewitness descriptions would have been considered as well. If it was actually a different person, it may have been someone seen acting strangely on the trails at a different time.

 

[TL4S]

.

I agree with you both that whatever sent LE down the wrong path happened very early on. Whether or not it had anything to do with the early warrants, I have no idea, but as quickly as those warrants were produced, they had to have had something more solid than a hunch to get a judge to sign off on them.
I would love to know the what, when, and where of what the witness saw that produced the NBG sketch. MOO, I have a feeling that whatever that witness saw may not have been near the trails at all. That would explain part of why it wasn’t given much weight in the beginning, and may also explain LE’s comment about believing the killer “got around quickly” (not the exact quote)

I agree. That comment also hints that the car at the CPS lot is indeed connected to BG, although I know others don't feel that way.

If it is, though, and the witness saw something somewhere other than the trail area, than I wonder why LE puts the car in that specific lot. Other witnesses? Poor surveillance footage from the storage facility up the road? It's more than a guess on their part, I'm assuming.

 

[tresir2012]

This is why I don’t think it was SA. Or else, someone very disorganized started a SA and someone very organized cleaned up after him.

But here is the part of DC’s rhetorics I don’t get. Several times he called the case “evil”. And then says, that the killer has conscience left? How?

What about the clothes in the creek? Just removing clothes would be SA just on it's own but maybe he got interrupted, heard someone calling or on the bridge, so he killed them and left along the bank and deer trail chucking clothes in the creek as he went.

 

[tresir2012]

Does anyone know who put up the trail sign? Carter's"first day" comment keeps popping up in my mind. I definitely think it means something to the killer.

The Marie Gerard Reserve sign was put up in 2008 or after. Not sure who put it up or made it. Why do you ask?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

But here is the part of DC’s rhetorics I don’t get. Several times he called the case “evil”. And then says, that the killer has conscience left? How?

I think, DC was speaking to a very smart killer, who knows himself, he is indeed "evil" from time to time, but has brain cells enough to feel at least a little bit guiltily too and has a little bit conscience left (wasn't much in quantity at all, what DC indicated between his thumb and his forefinger, while saying this). MOO

 

[TL4S]

What about the clothes in the creek? Just removing clothes would be SA just on it's own but maybe he got interrupted, heard someone calling or on the bridge, so he killed them and left along the bank and deer trail chucking clothes in the creek as he went.

Maybe that's how L's shoe ended up wherever it was found. Whomever was carrying it, dropped it, versus of it coming off while she was walking/running (although that would easily happen in the mud in or near the creek bank).

 

[TL4S]

Does anyone know if there were other areas of the creek searched, aside from the stretch between the bridge and the cs?

 

[TL4S]

Yes, I'm inline with your thoughts. The car presents a problem because we don't know if it was even connected to BG. My mind consistently runs two scenarios: car is related, or car is not.

If BG parked at the CPS lot with no real plan in place, and the murders, creek crossing, etc. occurred impulsively, than maybe he found himself standing there thinking, "Crap, now what?"

Riley has said BG had to know where to cross the creek, but that doesn't definitively mean he purposefully led the girls across. Maybe he crossed elsewhere on his way out. skibaboo's map shows police road blocks from the days following the murder. W 300 N rd was blocked just north of the CPS lot, and the N 625 W (the road that runs south from the bridge) was blocked at the W 200 N intersection. That was likely due to the ongoing investigation, but maybe there's a reason they wanted to keep people out of that south end. Maybe they thought BG recrossed the creek and took the woods southeasterly, circling back north near the hwy to get back to his car? He'd be out of sight nearly the entire way. I don't know how likely that is, but I'm throwing it out there. They did ask about any hitchhikers early on.

Personally, I believe the car is connected to BG. DC might sound confused, but I don't think he is. I think BG parked at CPS lot and followed the girls on the trail starting at that 501 trail sign DC talks about, and LE knows it. I'm hopeful LE has a full picture.

I mapped out the rough distance BG would have had to walk if he took a southeasterly exit route looping from the CS back to his car in the CPS lot (if this is what he did). I don't know what's visible from the trail, so he could have possibly been able to cut more straight through, as well. As I have it, it's just over 1 mile, and all wooded except for the last 1000 feet or so to the car. Again, he would have had to be at least somewhat familiar with the woods and the creek to know where to go to cross, and IMO, if he crossed it once, there's no reason not to cross it again if it means a safer escape.

I know it's all been said before, but if BG had planned this crime out in detail, a creek crossing was not necessary to get them out of view. There are plenty of gullies and other isolated spots to the southeast of the bridge. Crossing the creek, if planned, is definitely "odd."

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I know the simplest answer is the correct answer more often than not, but unless the OBG has been identified, LE’s statements just don’t make any sense to me...

LE presented a new sketch and simultaneously told the public to disregard the first sketch all together. They also stated that the two sketches ARE NOT of the same person. So, unless OBG has been identified, why would they just decide to stop pursuing that lead all together? If not identified, I can’t imagine that they would just decide that they were no longer interested in finding out who this person is - as a potential witness if nothing else! They very easily could have thrown out the second sketch and simply state that they’re seeking information on both. Bottom line, IMO, SOMETHING led LE to not only pursue the NBG, but to also eliminate the need for information on OBG. I’m always open to new theories, but right now, this is the only one that makes sense to me...

I can imagine several scenarios that would lead to changing their minds about who the primary suspect may be, but I can only think of one that would remove OBG from their radar all together.

While on the subject of OBG vs NBG, I’ll also add that, assuming LE knows that they are in fact two different people, then I think we need to re-evaluate our assumption that the murders occurred in a very short period of time. NBG sketch was provided by one witness that “saw something they felt they should report” - as far as I know, the when and what of what they saw has never been disclosed to the public.
MOO....

This doesn't answer your question, but it includes info that I don't recall that D.C. has ever come outright and said before.

I thought I would put it here as I know that not everybody is listening to these podcasts.

In the link below from the podcast, SCENE OF THE CRIME – A NEW DIRECTION at around the 41 minute mark, this direct quote by Doug Carter from the April 22nd presser is mentioned. "The result of the new information and intelligence over time leads us to believe the sketch which you will see shortly is the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls."

At the 42 minute mark, Kelsi discusses the decision to switch to the new sketch with Doug Carter.

Delphi: A New Direction from Scene of the Crime: Delphi

DC: Remember a sketch is just a visual, it’s not a photograph. It’s a visual of what somebody might have seen. So that’s all I’ll say about the sketch.

KG: In 2019 a new composite sketch of the suspect was created that looks a lot different to many people than the original sketch. How and why was the new sketch created and why might it appear much different?

DC: Yeah, well…I can’t talk about that in detail, but I will simply say that the investigation has evolved….and there are things we know that we can’t explain. And I know there was a lot of anxiety about that, and even there was even some confusion and some blame and some criticism of us. Uh…that criticism needs to come to me and not to anybody else because I absolutely supported that change.

All JMO - But I now have two scenarios in mind:

1-two different people were there that day that were dressed very similarly and both were seen by different witnesses. LE has decided that one person/sketch has now become a 'secondary' because they know that the other person is the one who committed the actual crime. The person in the 'secondary' sketch may even be the witness mentioned in the April 22nd press release; We have a witness. You made mistakes."
ISP release new information on Delphi murder suspect

2-the same person was seen by multiple people but he disguised himself by hiding his face (with a scarf or even a mask?) and is, in fact, both sketches. He was seen pre-disguise and post-disguise. Thus, DC saying that he "May end up looking like both sketches."

 

[Eclipsed]

I think, DC was speaking to a very smart killer, who knows himself, he is indeed "evil" from time to time, but has brain cells enough to feel at least a little bit guiltily too and has a little bit conscience left (wasn't much in quantity at all, what DC indicated between his thumb and his forefinger, while saying this). MOO

Any murder is evil. DC is hoping he has a conscience. Reading too much into DCs meanings because we have not been given much of anything to go on.
IMHO

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Earlier in the investigation there was a msm and in it was talking about the parked vehicle and a woman (iirc) saying that the person by the vehicle was acting weird. Anyone have the link to that msm? It was earlier in the investigation when the vehicle was first brought up, they never said what kind of vehicle though and the woman’s description of guy was that of the younger looking of the sketches. I’ve been looking for that link to msm but a lot of the older stuff has been so edited or modified or almost completely changed.

I don't think that this info ever made it to msm.

I believe that it was put out on social media and then brought here as part of the discussion when the person registered here as a poster. Posts were deleted from what I recall as it was considered unverified info.

Hard to recall from three years ago what made it to msm. Your right! A lot of the older stuff in msm has either disappeared all together, or been heavily edited.

JMO

 

[nunyabiz750]

Has anyone considered the date this crime was committed? What about the history of the surrounding land and ownership? Think outside the box. Could this have been a set up? Why were bodies found in the same area previously searched the night before? Why wait until 10am to resume search? If properties have been searched and nothing has been found (at least to our knowledge) then where were the girls all night? Where were they taken to? Why were they still warm? Anyone find it odd the cellphone was left? Doesn't it seem suspicious that the killer can cover their tracks well enough to not get caught but then leaves a cell phone in plain site? Can you think of any other mysterious cases where cell phones were conveniently left at the scene of the crime? There is one element to this case that I recently discovered and it appears no one has even considered it. Once you do, it will take you down a rabbit hole you can't find your way out of.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I think that if we do discuss this further, we may get our Moderators frustrated with us for bringing accusations from social media here. We don't want this thread shut down again.

Now if was mentioned in one of the 'approved' podcasts.....that may change things

Edited to delete quote to be on the safe side

 

[coastal]

Ya'll are barking up the wrong tree. Has anyone considered the date this crime was committed? What about the history of the surrounding land and ownership? Think outside the box. Could this have been a set up? Why were bodies found in the same area previously searched the night before? Why wait until 10am to resume search? If properties have been searched and nothing has been found (at least to our knowledge) then where were the girls all night? Where were they taken to? Why were they still warm? Anyone find it odd the cellphone was left? Doesn't it seem suspicious that the killer can cover their tracks well enough to not get caught but then leaves a cell phone in plain site? Can you think of any other mysterious cases where cell phones were conveniently left at the scene of the crime? There is one element to this case that I recently discovered and it appears no one has even considered it. Once you do, it will take you down a rabbit hole you can't find your way out of.

Welcome to Weblseuths, nunyabiz750. Can you elaborate?

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Ya'll are barking up the wrong tree. Has anyone considered the date this crime was committed? What about the history of the surrounding land and ownership? Think outside the box. Could this have been a set up? Why were bodies found in the same area previously searched the night before? Why wait until 10am to resume search? If properties have been searched and nothing has been found (at least to our knowledge) then where were the girls all night? Where were they taken to? Why were they still warm? Anyone find it odd the cellphone was left? Doesn't it seem suspicious that the killer can cover their tracks well enough to not get caught but then leaves a cell phone in plain site? Can you think of any other mysterious cases where cell phones were conveniently left at the scene of the crime? There is one element to this case that I recently discovered and it appears no one has even considered it. Once you do, it will take you down a rabbit hole you can't find your way out of.

Quoted bbm

If there is something you have found that hasn't been discussed in the last 120 threads, it would likely be interesting for all of us to learn about without us having to dig our 10,000th rabbit hole.
JMO

Care to expand on this without breaking any rules?

 

[PezCandy]

OK we should discuss it I think, and here is why. I remember where I first saw it. It was definitely NOT msm, and the readers begged this woman to call the tip line.

She said the young person’s name was Aaron. And now we have these wild accusations on YouTube. First, I don’t believe them, period. (No proof, no motive, probably, out of character, too). Second, maybe that woman was the source of the NBG sketch?

So that post on some media, and the name, and some horrified accusations on YouTube and Twitter now, and the sketch - could it have been started by a very shady witness?

I don't think that this info ever made it to msm.

I believe that it was put out on social media and then brought here as part of the discussion when the person registered here as a poster. Posts were deleted from what I recall as it was considered unverified info.

Hard to recall from three years ago what made it to msm. Your right! A lot of the older stuff in msm has either disappeared all together, or been heavily edited.

JMO

I don’t have social media so I don’t think I’ve seen it there, unless someone here was talking about it. But I remember reading about it somewhere. But lots of stuff that was on MSM have been edited, changed completely, or just gone. I wonder if certain things that were/are crucial to the investigation were removed from MSM for reasons to protect the investigation. I’ve seen it done in a few cases. It gets frustrating tho when looking for past stuff that’s for sure.

Jmo