Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
My question has often been at exactly what point did BG decide to murder the girls? He had to hike the entire trail, cross the bridge, and maybe even time before that, like if he saw them dropped off and had to park his car. At any point along the way, he could have turned around. But he didn't.

What the h*ll happened? Did he wake up that morning with an urge? Did he even know what he was going to do when L filmed him on the bridge? And if it wasn't planned, whatever he did at the cs had to have been done with things he had in his vehicle or on his person. I've always felt that way.

I also thought it sounded like Ives felt BG committed the crime and got out of there. I don't believe there was a lot of time spent with the bodies afterwards. He maybe posed them, I don't know. It doesn't feel like that kind of murder to me, but I'm open to the idea. But if he did, I don't think there was time for anything too elaborate. JMO
 
holtzmann said:
You do seem to be criticizing the team's decisions as not being enough, jmo...

It stayed above freezing that night. Without evidence of foul play or injury, LE simply is not going to act immediately as if it is a factor. There is a process of escalating search efforts, just as with any group of law enforcement, e.g. you don't call out the whole fire station for every initial report of a fire.
Click to expand...
Searching began almost immediately by family and friends with LE involved from around 5 p.m. so I don't believe there is any criticism of the first 5 or 6 hours and the support from the town and surrounding area. Once the official search was called off, volunteers and some LE remained searching till the early hours. Due to no official coordination after that time and no securing of the area, I believe it caused problems for the subsequent investigation and led to contamination of the area. This has been stated by LE being critical of themselves and so we can be critical also IMO.
 
sunshineray said:
I'll tell you one thing I strongly feel. I can't see criticizing the families at all for organizing their own continued searching through the night. I personally would have felt abandoned by my local law enforcement if it was my child missing, in the dark, in the cold, possibly hurt and in need of help. It was enough "evidence", just the fact they were gone. LE not being out there in force at the crack of dawn also would have made me feel quite abandoned by them. AJMO and I'm by no means a critic of LE in general.
Click to expand...
You make a very strong argument. I do believe I'd feel the exact same way. In the same nightmare scenario, I'd be panic-stricken and desperate for every last eye available to be looking.

Never in a million years, though, would I want the job of a search team leader, trying to make those calls. In my heart I'd want to keep it going endlessly, but I also wouldn't want the job of having to tell the family of one my searchers that their loved one was severely injured or died in his or her efforts. It's just a horrible, horrible situation with no good answers.

From my perspective, BG is the only person who deserves blame.
 
Last edited:
holtzmann said:
Quick note to add, if you haven't already gone to Youtube to check out some videos from people who have been to the bridge and walked across it (yes, I know it's banned, but unfortunately as you know, people, etc.), I highly recommend it to get a sense of what the searchers, girls, AND BG were up against.

Suffice it to say, that bridge is in a terrifying condition, and trying to walk across it with flashlights would be a death sentence.
Click to expand...
The searchers did not need to go across the bridge and could have got to that area by using vehicles, as LE did the following day.
 
TTF14 said:
It was a really great episode (episode 5). The best so far for those who have followed this case closely from the beginning. Some of my (highly paraphrased) takeaways from the interview with Mr. Ives:

- Lots of physical evidence, but not what most people are probably thinking. So does this mean no SA/no semen? The photos, video, voice obviously counts as physical evidence. What else?
- "At least" 3 "signatures" at the scene. There also was a good interview with an expert about what signatures are. Basically, signatures usually provide an emotional or sexual payoff.
- The closest cell tower - I can't tell from what he said whether or not a search warrant WAS obtained and if those records HAVE been gone through. He said there was no probable cause for a search warrant (search warrants aren't easy to get), so does that mean they were never able to get one?
- Ives would be surprised if they end up finding out they were lured there. He thinks it was just a coincidence.
- Ives thinks it's someone local since the bridge isn't a famous landmark and nobody would really know it's there.
- He's seen/heard all the video, but thinks the public probably thinks there's more there than actually is (I took this to mean the actual murder is not on video/audio).
- I still have no inkling about whether or not there is DNA or what type it might be if there is. He spent a couple of minutes talking about touch DNA and how difficult that is. Just the fact that they were school students would mean they'd have a lot of touch DNA on their clothing.
- No clear suspect for him. There are a handful that "could have" done it, and he talked about someone blathering on social media after the crime and said something like, "but it's not him....he's a minor anyway..." Sounds like Ives has ruled out the killer being a minor.

I'm sure some more will come to me.
Click to expand...
They didn't get cell phone tower info? So a double murder with the FBI involvement was not sufficient probable cause? I am dumb founded if they did not capture that data. I just cannot believe that. They surely must have it. Thanks for your info.
 
tresir2012 said:
They didn't get cell phone tower info? So a double murder with the FBI involvement was not sufficient probable cause? I am dumb founded if they did not capture that data. I just cannot believe that.
Click to expand...

I don't know if they did or not. It was very unclear. He was talking about probable cause and getting a search warrant isn't as easy as you might think. He was saying there would probably only be about 25 phones pinging off that tower at that time of day so that information would obviously be helpful, but I could not tell if they actually HAVE that information or not. Anyone else have an opinion after listening to the podcast?
 
TTF14 said:
I don't know if they did or not. It was very unclear. He was talking about probable cause and getting a search warrant isn't as easy as you might think. He was saying there would probably only be about 25 phones pinging off that tower at that time of day so that information would obviously be helpful, but I could not tell if they actually HAVE that information or not. Anyone else have an opinion after listening to the podcast?
Click to expand...

MOO. My impression after listening to this portion of the podcast was that they did not get that info at the time due to the fact that search warrants are hard to get. But you probably could interpret either way. Everything is so vague in this case. MOO
 
sunshineray said:
I'll tell you one thing I strongly feel. I can't see criticizing the families at all for organizing their own continued searching through the night. I personally would have felt abandoned by my local law enforcement if it was my child missing, in the dark, in the cold, possibly hurt and in need of help. It was enough "evidence", just the fact they were gone. LE not being out there in force at the crack of dawn also would have made me feel quite abandoned by them. AJMO and I'm by no means a critic of LE in general.
Click to expand...

And I'm not discounting how it feels to have police postpone the search in an official capacity as the family, but strictly speaking, the girls not coming home is not evidence enough that they were in danger or hurt. The only thing that was known to be certain was that they were not home.

tresir2012 said:
The searchers did not need to go across the bridge and could have got to that area by using vehicles, as LE did the following day.
Click to expand...

So now instead of continuing to search all over the area all night, they did not need to search the bridge itself where the girls were pictured?

I get that you're upset, but you can't have it both ways.
 
holtzmann said:
And I'm not discounting how it feels to have police postpone the search in an official capacity as the family, but strictly speaking, the girls not coming home is not evidence enough that they were in danger or hurt. The only thing that was known to be certain was that they were not home.



So now instead of continuing to search all over the area all night, they did not need to search the bridge itself where the girls were pictured?

I get that you're upset, but you can't have it both ways.
Click to expand...

We did have it both ways. They searched under the bridge that night and downstream because they believed the girls may have fallen off. What would be the point of searching on the bridge? Kelsi and Tara walked across the bridge to the properties before it got dark as I understand. The main error that LE made was not securing the scene when they stood down that night. It's very likely the murderer was one of the hundreds searching thru the night IMO.
 
holtzmann said:
Bear in mind also that being critical of an action is one thing, but repeatedly asking why the action was taken when there is an obvious answer is not constructive.
Click to expand...
I would respectfully comment to please bear in mind we can post whatever opinions we like. This has been discussed virtually every week for 3 years now and you are unlikely to change anyone's opinion on it.
 
Falling Down said:
LE is not close at all to solving this crime, they have no idea who did it and likely don't even know where to start to figure out who did it.

Which explains the multiple "one piece of information" comments from LE within the last year, that piece of information in my mind will be either intel from the public, or another attack or possibly another murder. That's been my fear for over two years, that most likely another crime will have to be committed before these murders are solved.
Click to expand...
Snipped

As much as I'd like for this case to be solved, the death of another young girl would be too high of a price to pay. Better that BG should retire and remain unidentified.
TTF14 said:
- Ives thinks it's someone local since the bridge isn't a famous landmark and nobody would really know it's there.
Click to expand...
Snipped

BG may well be local, but I can't quite hold with that rationale. Someone seeking out old railroad bridges specifically or hiking areas in general could quite easily stumble upon information about the Monon High Bridge on the internet (including myriad maps and photos).
 
TTF14 said:
I don't know if they did or not. It was very unclear. He was talking about probable cause and getting a search warrant isn't as easy as you might think. He was saying there would probably only be about 25 phones pinging off that tower at that time of day so that information would obviously be helpful, but I could not tell if they actually HAVE that information or not. Anyone else have an opinion after listening to the podcast?
Click to expand...
I also found it a little confusing on the cell phone tower records as he did not clarify. I think they were probably not able to get a search warrant on the records of whose phones were pinging from the tower. If LE can present a suspect or POI they may be able to get a search warrant to find if his particular phone was pinging off from that tower but to find out whose phone(s) was pinging off that particular tower is too many people to justify probable cause and the Judge might think it violates the privacy laws of the general public. MOO
 
holtzmann said:
And I'm not discounting how it feels to have police postpone the search in an official capacity as the family, but strictly speaking, the girls not coming home is not evidence enough that they were in danger or hurt. The only thing that was known to be certain was that they were not home.



So now instead of continuing to search all over the area all night, they did not need to search the bridge itself where the girls were pictured?

I get that you're upset, but you can't have it both ways.
Click to expand...
Also known for certain was Libby's phone was not answering, then not ringing at all. The photo taken by that same phone was posted to SM about an hour before their scheduled pick up time.

I'm just curious, do you think if the girls had been 8 and 9 or 9 and 10 years old instead of 13 and 14, would police have called off their searching overnight?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is DeKalb County John Doe (2022)?

Members online

... and 73 more.
Total: 1,827 (members: 74, guests: 1,753)

Online statistics

Members online
74
Guests online
1,753
Total visitors
1,827
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
601,610
Messages
18,126,867
Members
231,103
Latest member
maxnum
Back
Top