Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[Ozoner]

The family has said the girls mentioned the guy behind them in one of the recordings (whether they actually said "creepy guy" is rumor, at this point, as it's GH and Facebook sourced). And in the last "Down the Hill" podcast, Ives basically called this a "stranger" killing, as opposed to most the murders around the area having been crimes of passion by someone known to the victim.

I, personally, don't think they knew him.

It's often frustrating when suspects are captured on video but can't be identified. It happens all the time with B&Es/robberies. Many businesses have security cameras that produce grainy, black and white videos that are better than nothing but not by much. Unfortunately, the video of BG is too grainy to be useful for identifying a suspect. Cell phone cameras are improving, though. If this crime were to occur today, there's a much better chance that BG would be identifiable.

 

[TandraJones]

It's often frustrating when suspects are captured on video but can't be identified. It happens all the time with B&Es/robberies. Many businesses have security cameras that produce grainy, black and white videos that are better than nothing but not by much. Unfortunately, the video of BG is too grainy to be useful for identifying a suspect. Cell phone cameras are improving, though. If this crime were to occur today, there's a much better chance that BG would be identifiable.

True. I do believe the video is enough for a sibling or friend to know, though. Assuming BG has family/friends that are alive...

 

[curiousgene]

I just listen to the walk in the woods podcast and this is something I have to say now, I find the ISP Doug Carter ramblings unprofessional. He sounds more like a philosopher, pastor delivering a lecture than an LE officer speaking. I have been listening to him since the beginning when he first appeared on a TV channel for this case, I can't remember which one right now but, I get the feeling he is preparing himself to stand up for an election as a mayor/ state representative. For a change, I think we should hear from some other officers who are actually involved in the case. I honestly see a lot of issues coming up if there is an arrest and a trial in this case. MOO

 

[JnRyan]

I had my hands out in case they were needed during a slippage or fall or anything sudden. I certainly didn't want to be freefalling while looking through the lens of a camera. I had noticed moss on the bridge. I was not expecting that. The mossy sections were slick. I think the video I took from the end of the bridge looking backward shows some green areas of moss.

I would estimate I could have crossed in maybe 6-7 minutes if doing it hurriedly and without fear. Then shave at least a minute off that for someone younger and with prior experience on the bridge.

I definitely think Bridge Guy had crossed many times. But I don't think that aligns with local necessity. I see no reason why he couldn't have looked for an ideal location -- online or in person -- found that one, and then visited 2-3 times while putting together a plan. If it happened that way I think he would have already been bored on the third day of reconnaissance.

My overall belief is that he had several locations picked out as possibles and toured between them until ideal conditions clicked. Trails are remote by definition. Moyer Gould Woods and Trailhead Park had trails that felt more isolated and spooky than Monon High. I'm actually surprised there have not been more high profile murders on trails. Also at campgrounds.

The end of the bridge is not comparable to the totality or especially the beginning. Not remotely similar. I'm frustrated when that is not fully recognized. But I can understand it because the doomsday views are invariably above or below that initial section. It leaves the impression that the bridge remains that way throughout. That is ridiculous.

I easily could have walked with my hands in my pockets over the final section of the bridge. I could have walked hands in pockets and very rapidly. The gaps are so narrow you don't worry about them anyone. It feels like cupcakes. You are no longer over water. Now there are thin trees on both sides. It feels like a funnel. It is no longer scenic since you can't see the creek. It feels like there is no reason to go slow when the footing is fine and you aren't seeing anything particularly noteworthy anyway.

Over that final 100 feet or so the bridge feels like planks that are attached to the ground. It may not actually be that way if viewed from underneath, but it certainly feels that way.

Abby and Libby would not have been alarmed at Bridge Guy's pace. They would recognize speeding up as perfectly normal at the end of the bridge. The strange aspect would have been someone else on the bridge period. I guarantee that doesn't happen 2% of the time. It would be common courtesy and logical safety to remain off the bridge until another party had completely finished, even if that meant waiting for them to walk all the way back.

If they had seen Bridge Guy previously they could have been thinking this guy is weird and stupid enough to venture out onto the bridge while we're still up here.

Also, this is seldom mentioned but I absolutely guarantee Bridge Guy turned around and checked behind him for at least the first half of the crossing and probably more like 2/3. He can't afford for anyone else to see him out onto the bridge. I think he waited beforehand near the foot of the bridge and timed his entrance to catch Abby and Libby as they finished, and was perfectly willing to abort if either someone showed up behind him, or if Abby and Libby had dashed off into the private yards beyond the bridge.

Thanks for this. Very detailed post. And you covered what I was thinking about how the killer might have planned and executed his approach to the girls. It hadn't occurred to me before that one should not cross the bridge until anyone else had returned - and yet that should have been very obvious to me when looking at photos.

 

[JnRyan]

I just listen to the walk in the woods podcast and this is something I have to say now, I find the ISP Doug Carter ramblings unprofessional. He sounds more like a philosopher, pastor delivering a lecture than an LE officer speaking. I have been listening to him since the beginning when he first appeared on a TV channel for this case, I can't remember which one right now but, I get the feeling he is preparing himself to stand up for an election as a mayor/ state representative. For a change, I think we should hear from some other officers who are actually involved in the case. I honestly see a lot of issues coming up if there is an arrest and a trial in this case. MOO

We actually have heard from others involved with the case. The county sheriff, Tobe Leazenby, has given a few interviews and those have been very professional - even with Anthony Greeno. (I believe there was some tension in the early months between Greeno and LE.) The ISP official who has been designated as the 'lead investigator' is ISP 1st Sgt Jerry Holeman. Holeman's interviews are also very professional and to the point. Holeman gave a 20+ minute interview early on the case and I believe this may have been in late summer of 2017. It was in this interview that Holeman tactfully avoided answering whether or not LE had the killer's DNA or if they even have DNA. He simply stated that almost every crime scene has DNA. Holeman appeared on stage at CrimeCon 2018 with the family members. It was here that he was more direct on DNA evidence by stating they would neither deny nor confirm whether they have DNA evidence. In still another interview Holeman, when asked if the killer knew he was being recorded, stated that it was his opinion the killer did not know. The one that bothers me more than the ISP Superintendent is the ISP spokesperson, Sgt Kim Riley. He is the spokesperson for ISP and yet he appears - to me, anyway - as if he is not on the same page with the rest of LE on this. Very early on, I believe he stated something about processing evidence for things like DNA and then shortly thereafter stated a clarification that no one in LE stated they had DNA. In August of this year, Riley gives an interview with a YouTuber (Minivan Traveler?) and states that the crime scene was contaminated and throws out a number like '1000 searchers'. I believe one of the other persons involved in the investigation on the 'Down the Hill' podcast is asked about the number of searchers and they state it wasn't near that many. On the subject of DNA it was Riley that stated in 2018 they were looking at the April Tinsley case to see how they could possibly use that here. The April Tinsley case was solved using familial DNA. If LE did not have DNA how could the April Tinsley case be relevant here?

 

[Charlot123]

I suddenly thought, everyone is looking at Evansdale murders, but what if Flora fire was more connected? Maybe the MO - killing several kids - is meant to distract from the fact that in each case, only one needed to die? Maybe it is not a SK, but rather, serial child molester? And as soon as there is the chance that the child would talk, several are killed, to make it look like an accident, or a SK's act? We constantly wonder, who did he target, Libby or Abby? As to the Flora case, it is all but forgotten, and yet, it was initially called arson. And the older girl was 11 and a cheerleader. Maybe, instead of looking at Evansdale, one could see where the paths of the Flora and the Delphi girls could have crossed? I think it could be some sport activity, but maybe, something else? Was there a predator that could have abused one of Flora girls, and then wiped it off, so to say, by the fire? And then did the same to one of Delphi girls and killed two, to look as a SK?

ETA. We are looking at physical similarities between Delphi and Evansdale girls, but maybe we should look at the Flora and Delphi girls. They are of a different race, but maybe two of them had similar built, height, or other characteristics that he is attracted to? Besides young age?

What is happening with the Flora case?

 

[Charlot123]

I just listen to the walk in the woods podcast and this is something I have to say now, I find the ISP Doug Carter ramblings unprofessional. He sounds more like a philosopher, pastor delivering a lecture than an LE officer speaking. I have been listening to him since the beginning when he first appeared on a TV channel for this case, I can't remember which one right now but, I get the feeling he is preparing himself to stand up for an election as a mayor/ state representative. For a change, I think we should hear from some other officers who are actually involved in the case. I honestly see a lot of issues coming up if there is an arrest and a trial in this case. MOO

His rambling is illogical. I stopped asking myself, what the heck he means each time? Maybe he just speaks the way he thinks?

I am not from Indiana, but Drew Yoder, who got injured trying to save the girls from the Flora fire, merits becoming a mayor/state representative way more than the rambling DC. Drew is a hero, and he didn't claim any spotlight. What DC has done is beyond my understanding. Maybe I don't know something.

 

[Justice101]

following

 

[HockeyMom330]

Thanks for this. Very detailed post. And you covered what I was thinking about how the killer might have planned and executed his approach to the girls. It hadn't occurred to me before that one should not cross the bridge until anyone else had returned - and yet that should have been very obvious to me when looking at photos.

BBM
I read early on in the case that even though people are not supposed to be trespassing on the bridge, Delphi locals have an 'unwritten rule' of courtesy that you must wait for the bridge to be clear before crossing. Since BG was on the bridge at the same time as the girls, it suggests to me that either he is not local and not aware of this protocol, or he disregarded it because he was targeting the girls and used the bridge as a trap.

The flipside is that the girls safely reached the SE end without realizing BG was on the bridge because they were chattering and taking photos and basically being oblivious and self-centered like normal young teens. Since there wasn't much to do at that end, they then start to cross back to the NW side to meet their pick up ride, inadvertently breaking the 'rule'. BG may have been enraged when he saw the girls and called out to them in some way to chastise them for being on the bridge, which caused the girls to turn around and return back to the SE side. Maybe he even instructed them to get off the bridge and wait their turn. As BG continues to walk towards the girls, Libby records, as she is unsettled by the encounter but not fully aware of the danger ahead. The girls wait at the SE end (explaining why they didn't run when they had a chance) as they assume BG will walk past them and then they can get back on the bridge. Instead, BG orders the girls 'down the hill' and the girls comply.

 

[minazoe]

I don't believe this is someone who " became enraged".

this person uses rage , which is different.

he is in control. If he shows rage it's the "wind up" part of his pitch.

he also showed up ready to party, pockets stuffed, weapon in hand, kill kit etc.

Honestly the more and more I think of it the more I am convinced he somehow

knew those girls would be there. I even wonder if they were followed there that day

and that they had been stalked in days prior.

maybe looking at this possibility might open things up ..the days prior, weeks , prior. places they could go to meet or be observed by someone who would then target one or both girls.

seems like it would be easier to accomplish what he wanted if he could find a chance to get that girl or girls , alone.

maybe never texting or talking , but finding the name of the girl by following her home, checking the mailbox , googling the address, finding her Facebook, reading her posts and plans.

any little thing that someone could have seen or known needs to come out.

maybe BG told someone he had a girl he liked or was watching or checking out.

he definitely showed up ready to go. ready to kill.

there is no question.

mOO

 

[Trebor5591]

Thanks for the link. In this case, I keep coming back to the creek crossing. It's always bothered me. There are a hundred theories existing within these threads as to why they crossed the creek.

The most reasonable explanation why they crossed the creek was that the girls at some point at the bottom of the hill bolted to escape BG. In desperation they ran across the creek, with him chasing them. He caught up with them and killed them at the crime scene.

To me, this makes perfect sense.

 

[8771]

I just listen to the walk in the woods podcast and this is something I have to say now, I find the ISP Doug Carter ramblings unprofessional. He sounds more like a philosopher, pastor delivering a lecture than an LE officer speaking. I have been listening to him since the beginning when he first appeared on a TV channel for this case, I can't remember which one right now but, I get the feeling he is preparing himself to stand up for an election as a mayor/ state representative. For a change, I think we should hear from some other officers who are actually involved in the case. I honestly see a lot of issues coming up if there is an arrest and a trial in this case. MOO

SAME! I feel so bad thinking it, but the more I hear him, the more annoyed I get. I feel like he's really amping up the drama for drama's sake. I don't enjoy hearing from him much at this point, because it feels fake to me. I understand most involved are probably very scarred and tormented by what they witnessed, as well as the fact that justice has not been served, but I just can't put my finger on why ISP DC feels so different than anyone else I listen to.

 

[curiousgene]

We actually have heard from others involved with the case. The county sheriff, Tobe Leazenby, has given a few interviews and those have been very professional - even with Anthony Greeno. (I believe there was some tension in the early months between Greeno and LE.) The ISP official who has been designated as the 'lead investigator' is ISP 1st Sgt Jerry Holeman. Holeman's interviews are also very professional and to the point. Holeman gave a 20+ minute interview early on the case and I believe this may have been in late summer of 2017. It was in this interview that Holeman tactfully avoided answering whether or not LE had the killer's DNA or if they even have DNA. He simply stated that almost every crime scene has DNA. Holeman appeared on stage at CrimeCon 2018 with the family members. It was here that he was more direct on DNA evidence by stating they would neither deny nor confirm whether they have DNA evidence. In still another interview Holeman, when asked if the killer knew he was being recorded, stated that it was his opinion the killer did not know. The one that bothers me more than the ISP Superintendent is the ISP spokesperson, Sgt Kim Riley. He is the spokesperson for ISP and yet he appears - to me, anyway - as if he is not on the same page with the rest of LE on this. Very early on, I believe he stated something about processing evidence for things like DNA and then shortly thereafter stated a clarification that no one in LE stated they had DNA. In August of this year, Riley gives an interview with a YouTuber (Minivan Traveler?) and states that the crime scene was contaminated and throws out a number like '1000 searchers'. I believe one of the other persons involved in the investigation on the 'Down the Hill' podcast is asked about the number of searchers and they state it wasn't near that many. On the subject of DNA it was Riley that stated in 2018 they were looking at the April Tinsley case to see how they could possibly use that here. The April Tinsley case was solved using familial DNA. If LE did not have DNA how could the April Tinsley case be relevant here?

Good point! They definitely are not on the same page. I sincerely hope these contradictory statements do not hurt the case later. I haven't heard the Minivan Traveler interview but, if there are such statements as a contaminated crime scene made by him about the case than they have a big problem in hand.

 

[Falcon500]

I just listen to the walk in the woods podcast and this is something I have to say now, I find the ISP Doug Carter ramblings unprofessional. He sounds more like a philosopher, pastor delivering a lecture than an LE officer speaking. I have been listening to him since the beginning when he first appeared on a TV channel for this case, I can't remember which one right now but, I get the feeling he is preparing himself to stand up for an election as a mayor/ state representative. For a change, I think we should hear from some other officers who are actually involved in the case. I honestly see a lot of issues coming up if there is an arrest and a trial in this case. MOO

I’m very surprised that Carter makes himself available for all of these podcasts. It is a new area and there are really no guidelines to dictate who he talks to. He’s not the spokesperson for the state. They pay someone else to do that.

 

[TandraJones]

SAME! I feel so bad thinking it, but the more I hear him, the more annoyed I get. I feel like he's really amping up the drama for drama's sake. I don't enjoy hearing from him much at this point, because it feels fake to me. I understand most involved are probably very scarred and tormented by what they witnessed, as well as the fact that justice has not been served, but I just can't put my finger on why ISP DC feels so different than anyone else I listen to.

I'm a bit mixed about carter. I feel like when he was on Dr. Phil he did great, but the interviews and PCs can sometimes be a bit overly dramatic. Word I'm looking for is being too personal while being informal.

In any event, there is a personality shift and I find it odd.

 

[JnRyan]

Good point! They definitely are not on the same page. I sincerely hope these contradictory statements do not hurt the case later. I haven't heard the Minivan Traveler interview but, if there are such statements as a contaminated crime scene made by him about the case than they have a big problem in hand.

Sugarcane18 posted the Sgt Riley August interview in thread #111. A little after the 10 minute mark Sgt Riley states that there were close to a 1000 searchers and the crime scene was contaminated. I believe it is in the "Down the Hill" podcast where someone in LE (DA Ives or Superintendent Carter) is asked about the number of searchers and they state it wasn't anything like a 1000 and the crime scene wasn't that contaminated.
The interview:

 

[JnRyan]

I suddenly thought, everyone is looking at Evansdale murders, but what if Flora fire was more connected? Maybe the MO - killing several kids - is meant to distract from the fact that in each case, only one needed to die? Maybe it is not a SK, but rather, serial child molester? And as soon as there is the chance that the child would talk, several are killed, to make it look like an accident, or a SK's act? We constantly wonder, who did he target, Libby or Abby? As to the Flora case, it is all but forgotten, and yet, it was initially called arson. And the older girl was 11 and a cheerleader. Maybe, instead of looking at Evansdale, one could see where the paths of the Flora and the Delphi girls could have crossed? I think it could be some sport activity, but maybe, something else? Was there a predator that could have abused one of Flora girls, and then wiped it off, so to say, by the fire? And then did the same to one of Delphi girls and killed two, to look as a SK?

ETA. We are looking at physical similarities between Delphi and Evansdale girls, but maybe we should look at the Flora and Delphi girls. They are of a different race, but maybe two of them had similar built, height, or other characteristics that he is attracted to? Besides young age?

What is happening with the Flora case?

Interesting thought. And while Abigail and Liberty's case gets so much publicity it rivals any murder in the country, we hear VERY little about the Flora fire. Even if they are not connected, why is that?

 

[Charlot123]

Interesting thought. And while Abigail and Liberty's case gets so much publicity it rivals any murder in the country, we hear VERY little about the Flora fire. Even if they are not connected, why is that?

There should be a thread about Flora fire, but I can’t find it.

Justice for the Girls: 3 years later, no arrests after Flora girls die in fire - WISH-TV | Indianapolis News | Indiana Weather | Indiana Traffic


Anyhow, here is where Flora stands. And Carter doesn’t talk about Flora, and you know why? Because Delphi alone = personal media exposure.
Delphi + Flora = incompetence

 

[Falling Down]

I had my hands out in case they were needed during a slippage or fall or anything sudden. I certainly didn't want to be freefalling while looking through the lens of a camera. I had noticed moss on the bridge. I was not expecting that. The mossy sections were slick. I think the video I took from the end of the bridge looking backward shows some green areas of moss.

I would estimate I could have crossed in maybe 6-7 minutes if doing it hurriedly and without fear. Then shave at least a minute off that for someone younger and with prior experience on the bridge.

I definitely think Bridge Guy had crossed many times. But I don't think that aligns with local necessity. I see no reason why he couldn't have looked for an ideal location -- online or in person -- found that one, and then visited 2-3 times while putting together a plan. If it happened that way I think he would have already been bored on the third day of reconnaissance.

My overall belief is that he had several locations picked out as possibles and toured between them until ideal conditions clicked. Trails are remote by definition. Moyer Gould Woods and Trailhead Park had trails that felt more isolated and spooky than Monon High. I'm actually surprised there have not been more high profile murders on trails. Also at campgrounds.

The end of the bridge is not comparable to the totality or especially the beginning. Not remotely similar. I'm frustrated when that is not fully recognized. But I can understand it because the doomsday views are invariably above or below that initial section. It leaves the impression that the bridge remains that way throughout. That is ridiculous.

I easily could have walked with my hands in my pockets over the final section of the bridge. I could have walked hands in pockets and very rapidly. The gaps are so narrow you don't worry about them anyone. It feels like cupcakes. You are no longer over water. Now there are thin trees on both sides. It feels like a funnel. It is no longer scenic since you can't see the creek. It feels like there is no reason to go slow when the footing is fine and you aren't seeing anything particularly noteworthy anyway.

Over that final 100 feet or so the bridge feels like planks that are attached to the ground. It may not actually be that way if viewed from underneath, but it certainly feels that way.

Abby and Libby would not have been alarmed at Bridge Guy's pace. They would recognize speeding up as perfectly normal at the end of the bridge. The strange aspect would have been someone else on the bridge period. I guarantee that doesn't happen 2% of the time. It would be common courtesy and logical safety to remain off the bridge until another party had completely finished, even if that meant waiting for them to walk all the way back.

If they had seen Bridge Guy previously they could have been thinking this guy is weird and stupid enough to venture out onto the bridge while we're still up here.

Also, this is seldom mentioned but I absolutely guarantee Bridge Guy turned around and checked behind him for at least the first half of the crossing and probably more like 2/3. He can't afford for anyone else to see him out onto the bridge. I think he waited beforehand near the foot of the bridge and timed his entrance to catch Abby and Libby as they finished, and was perfectly willing to abort if either someone showed up behind him, or if Abby and Libby had dashed off into the private yards beyond the bridge.

Great observations.

I'd wondered about the condition of the last 100-150 feet of the SE end of the bridge.

I believe he did look behind him a bunch of times, he could not be seen with the girls, period, in order for him to be able to pull off his fantasy.

My hunch re: recon is he had been there before at least a few times, and I agree with the notion that BG most likely has scouted out a bunch of, if not many, other places in the region for possible criminal activity.

Great post.

 

[Falling Down]

We actually have heard from others involved with the case. The county sheriff, Tobe Leazenby, has given a few interviews and those have been very professional - even with Anthony Greeno. (I believe there was some tension in the early months between Greeno and LE.) The ISP official who has been designated as the 'lead investigator' is ISP 1st Sgt Jerry Holeman. Holeman's interviews are also very professional and to the point. Holeman gave a 20+ minute interview early on the case and I believe this may have been in late summer of 2017. It was in this interview that Holeman tactfully avoided answering whether or not LE had the killer's DNA or if they even have DNA. He simply stated that almost every crime scene has DNA. Holeman appeared on stage at CrimeCon 2018 with the family members. It was here that he was more direct on DNA evidence by stating they would neither deny nor confirm whether they have DNA evidence. In still another interview Holeman, when asked if the killer knew he was being recorded, stated that it was his opinion the killer did not know. The one that bothers me more than the ISP Superintendent is the ISP spokesperson, Sgt Kim Riley. He is the spokesperson for ISP and yet he appears - to me, anyway - as if he is not on the same page with the rest of LE on this. Very early on, I believe he stated something about processing evidence for things like DNA and then shortly thereafter stated a clarification that no one in LE stated they had DNA. In August of this year, Riley gives an interview with a YouTuber (Minivan Traveler?) and states that the crime scene was contaminated and throws out a number like '1000 searchers'. I believe one of the other persons involved in the investigation on the 'Down the Hill' podcast is asked about the number of searchers and they state it wasn't near that many. On the subject of DNA it was Riley that stated in 2018 they were looking at the April Tinsley case to see how they could possibly use that here. The April Tinsley case was solved using familial DNA. If LE did not have DNA how could the April Tinsley case be relevant here?

The searchers stuff keeps coming up, as time goes on I'm picturing maybe 150 or so people in an unorganized search that went out in various directions, including Delphi itself and surrounding areas. A news broadcast from that night which has been pulled from YouTube showed the volunteer FD garage and a bunch of searchers, this would have been around 9-10PM (this happens to be the first time the images Libby uploaded to SC were shared with a reporter, I can picture it in my mind a young man shared them), and it didn't look like they had a 'packed house', so to speak. Granted a bunch of people were probably outside on the ramp or what have you, still searching in the general area, etc. I just struggle to think there were more than 150 or maybe 200 people searching that night, and no all of them would not be at the bridge area.

We're talking a town of 3,000 people, in the middle of a rural part of IN, and a search that quite frankly was not considered particularly urgent due to the fact that nobody had even seen the girls at the bridge as a frame of reference, really, and nobody could confirm they were in any real danger.

If LE did not have DNA how could the April Tinsley case be relevant here?

Sure beats me, and it's another issue they should have left well enough alone early on and through into last year. Yet another blunder of sorts on LE's part I think, it's lead to confusion and scads of speculation, much of it right here on WS.

JMO