Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[MistyWaters]

I never mentioned blue eyes

That’s correct, I mentioned it.

 

[sunshineray]

People were there before and after the girls.

Yes and it would seem from things I've read but cannot, unfortunately, be linked here, quite a lot of people were in the Monon High Bridge area and on the numerous trails that day.

 

[MistyWaters]

This article would seem to imply that the first sketch released was based on this one witness. ISP 1st Sgt. Holeman stated at CrimeCon that the July 2017 sketch was done by an FBI sketch artist and was the result of more than one witness. Here is CrimeCon interview and Holeman discusses it from 22:30 to approx. 26:00 in the video.
Video of the Crime Con Interview (FULL) : DelphiMurders

Not a direct quote, but local media is generally accurate - reference to plural “witnesses” also -

“First police sketch: In July 2017, police released a composite drawing based on the testimony of eyewitnesses who saw a man walking near the bridge on the Delphi Historic Trails at about the time the girls are believed to have disappeared. The man in the sketch appears to be in his 40s or 50s...”
Delphi murders: What we know about the case

Noting this as well -
“Could there be multiple suspects? Investigators have never said for certain whether there was only one suspect in the slayings. When asked whether they could be looking for more than one person, Riley said: "We're not ruling out anything at this point in time." It's for that reason that investigators don't want to completely discount the earlier police sketch of what looks to be an older suspect. "There still the possibility of a second person involved in this case," Riley said. "We don't want to say the old sketch is not involved, we just want to say that this new sketch is more indicative of what we're looking for at this time."...”

 

[Falling Down]

Yes and it would seem from things I've read but cannot, unfortunately, be linked here, quite a lot of people were in the Monon High Bridge area and on the numerous trails that day.

I traced both trails, for reference, and there's a "CS" for Crime Scene in the lower right-hand corner.

!. Main trail at one time was a railroad right-of-way.

2. Gerard trail was a driveway to a property/house down by the creek.

 

[Charlot123]

In the mind of a sick child killer almost anything could trigger anger though. It could have been Libby's hair color, her build, what she was wearing, how he observed her acting on that day on the trails that day, any of those things. Just the fact that her shoe was found could mean he had a hold of Abby and Libby tried something, that could have angered him more against her, just that. I'm not saying I discount previous interaction, I haven't.

Could be. But again - if they think it is a sick child killer, why do they say the public is safe?

 

[HOPE770145]

Not a direct quote, but local media is generally accurate - reference to plural “witnesses” also -

“First police sketch: In July 2017, police released a composite drawing based on the testimony of eyewitnesses who saw a man walking near the bridge on the Delphi Historic Trails at about the time the girls are believed to have disappeared. The man in the sketch appears to be in his 40s or 50s...”
Delphi murders: What we know about the case

Noting this as well -
“Could there be multiple suspects? Investigators have never said for certain whether there was only one suspect in the slayings. When asked whether they could be looking for more than one person, Riley said: "We're not ruling out anything at this point in time." It's for that reason that investigators don't want to completely discount the earlier police sketch of what looks to be an older suspect. "There still the possibility of a second person involved in this case," Riley said. "We don't want to say the old sketch is not involved, we just want to say that this new sketch is more indicative of what we're looking for at this time."...”

Initial sketch also involved FBI. They also had the bridge video Libert taped

 

[JnRyan]

One of the problems with these sketches seems to be the unique situation LE is in. When a sketch is drawn and provided to the public it is usually from a witness who saw the person commit the crime, was last seen with the victim or was the only person exiting scene the time the crime was committed. IOW, there is usually more a direct connection to the crime with the person in the sketch.

LE does not appear to have that here. Listening to ISP 1st Sgt in the CrimeCon interview I posted above LE tried to determine who was at the trails that day and obtain descriptions from them. One of the descriptions or sketches they came up with was Liberty's grandfather, Mike Patty, which they could eliminate because he was at work when the girls first went missing. Basically, LE determined who was at the trails that day, who did they see and, of these descriptions, who could be identified and possibly eliminated. In the end the idea seemed to be to come up with a sketch or sketches of a person or persons who could not be identified and eliminated. Process of elimination and not an eyewitness to the crime should help LE arrive at a sketch. Or that seems to be the theory here. Obviously, where the person in the sketch was seen that day is a factor. Being seen in the parking lot getting out of his car is not same as a witness saying they saw a man coming out of the woods near the cemetery at 3 PM. (For the record, I'm not saying that a witness saw a person at the cemetery at 3PM, I'm just posing a hypothetical case as an example.)

LE firmly believes the man in the video is the killer. (Or one of the persons involved if you believe there is a possibility that there was more than one.) But there exists the possibility that the person depicted in the sketch is really just another potential witness that has not been identified and that none of the witnesses actually saw the killer that day. How great is that possibility, I don't have a clue.

Knowing they've used this process may be a factor in LE going to a new sketch and then saying the killer might be somewhere between the two sketches. A sketch is not a photograph and I get that point. But I also wonder if the process used to arrive at a sketch here hasn't given LE even more doubts than usual about the accuracy.

 

[kkdj]

It the murders of the girls were done so quickly, as some suggest, what could possibly be the motive? Normally I would think the motive for this would be SA, but that gives a very short window period. I know, we've beat a dead horse with this question as well as other questions.
I know what LE said about the short window period so I expect there is more on that audio to conclude that.
LE also said there's a twist to this. What on earth could the twist be and a quick kill?

 

[Trebor5591]

It depends. They can do it with RL. But what if their suspect is a successful attorney? Or a local doctor having a successful attorney on a retainer? Would they, as you said, “hold him over the weekend, interviewing him with teams of detectives while he was sleep-deprived, to try to force a confession”? They know that they would be looking into several lawsuits, one against themselves, another against Carroll County, and the third, probably, against the State of Indiana.

What's a RL? So many mysterious abbreviations on this site!
Be real, the likelihood of the killer being a successful attorney or a local doctor is slim to none. Likely the killer is a high school dropout.
My point is saying the police do not have a clue as to who the killer is, is because when 2 inocent children are murdered, police do whatever it takes to get the killer--if they know or suspect who the killer is. If they don't have evidence, the most common standard procedure would be to arrest the suspect for an unrelated crime (they would have to find a committed crime but in the USA there are so many laws that everyone is a lawbreaker--giving the police the opportunity to arrest pretty much anyone they want to target.) They would arrest the suspect on Friday evening because the court is then closed and won't reopen until Monday morning. That gives police the entire weekend to interrogate the suspect in custody without having to release them. Come Monday morning, with court open again, all those arrested over the weekend get their initial hearing and would likely be released pending trial.
The idea that police know who the killer is but are afraid to commit to doing what is necessary to protect the public and seek justice for the murdered girls due to fears of being sued, etc., is unreasonable.

 

[HOPE770145]

One of the problems with these sketches seems to be the unique situation LE is in. When a sketch is drawn and provided to the public it is usually from a witness who saw the person commit the crime, was last seen with the victim or was the only person exiting scene the time the crime was committed. IOW, there is usually more a direct connection to the crime with the person in the sketch.

LE does not appear to have that here. Listening to ISP 1st Sgt in the CrimeCon interview I posted above LE tried to determine who was at the trails that day and obtain descriptions from them. One of the descriptions or sketches they came up with was Liberty's grandfather, Mike Patty, which they could eliminate because he was at work when the girls first went missing. Basically, LE determined who was at the trails that day, who did they see and, of these descriptions, who could be identified and possibly eliminated. In the end the idea seemed to be to come up with a sketch or sketches of a person or persons who could not be identified and eliminated. Process of elimination and not an eyewitness to the crime should help LE arrive at a sketch. Or that seems to be the theory here. Obviously, where the person in the sketch was seen that day is a factor. Being seen in the parking lot getting out of his car is not same as a witness saying they saw a man coming out of the woods near the cemetery at 3 PM. (For the record, I'm not saying that a witness saw a person at the cemetery at 3PM, I'm just posing a hypothetical case as an example.)

LE firmly believes the man in the video is the killer. (Or one of the persons involved if you believe there is a possibility that there was more than one.) But there exists the possibility that the person depicted in the sketch is really just another potential witness that has not been identified and that none of the witnesses actually saw the killer that day. How great is that possibility, I don't have a clue.

Knowing they've used this process may be a factor in LE going to a new sketch and then saying the killer might be somewhere between the two sketches. A sketch is not a photograph and I get that point. But I also wonder if the process used to arrive at a sketch here hasn't given LE even more doubts than usual about the accuracy.

I think in my personal opinion appearances can change. The FBI should have this guy profiled already. Profilers and coroner can tell if the crime was spuradic or took time. The psychopaths intentions by the way he handled the bodies. The crime scene is key in solving this in my opinion.

 

[Charlot123]

What's a RL? So many mysterious abbreviations on this site!
Be real, the likelihood of the killer being a successful attorney or a local doctor is slim to none. Likely the killer is a high school dropout.

A school dropout who the combined police\/FBI forces can't find nor apprehend for 3 years might have a pretty decent IQ...

My point is saying the police do not have a clue as to who the killer is, is because when 2 inocent children are murdered, police do whatever it takes to get the killer--if they know or suspect who the killer is. If they don't have evidence, the most common standard procedure would be to arrest the suspect for an unrelated crime (they would have to find a committed crime but in the USA there are so many laws that everyone is a lawbreaker--giving the police the opportunity to arrest pretty much anyone they want to target.) They would arrest the suspect on Friday evening because the court is then closed and won't reopen until Monday morning. That gives police the entire weekend to interrogate the suspect in custody without having to release them. Come Monday morning, with court open again, all those arrested over the weekend get their initial hearing and would likely be released pending trial.
The idea that police know who the killer is but are afraid to commit to doing what is necessary to protect the public and seek justice for the murdered girls due to fears of being sued, etc., is unreasonable.

Well, we have several versions.

- the police has no clue who he is. The face on Libby's video is a pixelated blur, the voice is generic, no additional information on the recording, friends know nothing, her SM unrevealing.

OK, then assume it is a serial killer, warn everyone in the country, pull up all similar cases, do the job.
And tell people that there is a SK on the loose.

Instead, the sheriff says people the locals should not be scared, Kelsi is not scared. Moreover, the LE says he is local.

Another version - he is local but no one has seen nor heard about him. He is unrecognizable. Unusual, right? (But might happen... but then how can they state that no one is in danger? How can they know it?)

Another version - LE has some idea who he is but is lacking solid proof, needs more information, but the person has the money to hire attorneys to block such actions. This is very possible.

"Afraid"... I doubt that people with real power that would scare DC into submission live in/around Delphi. So "afraid" is not the term. But there is a situation when the LE is hindered by own mistakes made early in the course of the investigation, and does not want to discuss them; I view it as quite possible.

RL is Ron Logan whose interview I find interesting.

 

[Falling Down]

What's a RL? So many mysterious abbreviations on this site!
Be real, the likelihood of the killer being a successful attorney or a local doctor is slim to none. Likely the killer is a high school dropout.
My point is saying the police do not have a clue as to who the killer is, is because when 2 inocent children are murdered, police do whatever it takes to get the killer--if they know or suspect who the killer is. If they don't have evidence, the most common standard procedure would be to arrest the suspect for an unrelated crime (they would have to find a committed crime but in the USA there are so many laws that everyone is a lawbreaker--giving the police the opportunity to arrest pretty much anyone they want to target.) They would arrest the suspect on Friday evening because the court is then closed and won't reopen until Monday morning. That gives police the entire weekend to interrogate the suspect in custody without having to release them. Come Monday morning, with court open again, all those arrested over the weekend get their initial hearing and would likely be released pending trial.
The idea that police know who the killer is but are afraid to commit to doing what is necessary to protect the public and seek justice for the murdered girls due to fears of being sued, etc., is unreasonable.

RL is the property owner of the parcel where the girls were found.

Delphi property owner: "I can't comprehend it"

 

[Mr applebee]

No, it is just my opinion. There is something not matching together in this story. Even in a his guy, BG. I do believe that Libby somehow got to know some private, damning information. Nothing else could explain the anger towards her.

sorry l, I’m following as best as I can, but what do you mean by so much anger being towards Libby? I thought no details of the murder itself were released? Have I missed something? Thanks : )

 

[carbuff]

A school dropout who the combined police\/FBI forces can't find nor apprehend for 3 years might have a pretty decent IQ...




Well, we have several versions.

- the police has no clue who he is. The face on Libby's video is a pixelated blur, the voice is generic, no additional information on the recording, friends know nothing, her SM unrevealing.

OK, then assume it is a serial killer, warn everyone in the country, pull up all similar cases, do the job.
And tell people that there is a SK on the loose.

Instead, the sheriff says people the locals should not be scared, Kelsi is not scared. Moreover, the LE says he is local.

Another version - he is local but no one has seen nor heard about him. He is unrecognizable. Unusual, right? (But might happen... but then how can they state that no one is in danger? How can they know it?)

Another version - LE has some idea who he is but is lacking solid proof, needs more information, but the person has the money to hire attorneys to block such actions. This is very possible.

"Afraid"... I doubt that people with real power that would scare DC into submission live in/around Delphi. So "afraid" is not the term. But there is a situation when the LE is hindered by own mistakes made early in the course of the investigation, and does not want to discuss them; I view it as quite possible.

RL is Ron Logan whose interview I find interesting.

There's also "afraid" in sense that potential witnesses might be afraid that if they talk to LE, they'll be targeted by the killer. Someone in an abusive domestic relationship, for instance. People in a criminal relationship (like drug dealers, for instance). A neighbor who knows dude is insane. That sort of thing. Those are all made up examples, not real people.

 

[ReadySet]

I'm pages behind reading, but just wanted to give you hope about this case.
On Monday, it was announced that an Idaho case from 1982, a 9 year old girl who was kidnapped on her way to school, then murdered, has been solved, using DNA. This case has been the one I most wanted to see solved, for the past 38 years. And it's not the only one that has been solved after many years. We (the public) thought that it was a cold case, but learned Monday that LE has been actively investigating it for the past seven years or so. I'll post more about it when I can.
ID - Daralyn Johnson, 9, Nampa, Murdered in 1982

No, I do not think Libby and Abby's case is cold. Far from it. The case of the murdered girl in my area happened on May 17, 1990, so there will be another round of articles in the coming weeks. Also, she was taken from her car and found dead several days later and not shot as I posted before. There will be active discussion in the comments sections of these articles also and on the facebook pages. I just looked it up so it has been almost 31 years instead of 20. I sincerely hope it is not decades before the killer of these two girls in Delphi is brought to justice. Sometimes it happens.

 

[HOPE770145]

What's a RL? So many mysterious abbreviations on this site!
Be real, the likelihood of the killer being a successful attorney or a local doctor is slim to none. Likely the killer is a high school dropout.
My point is saying the police do not have a clue as to who the killer is, is because when 2 inocent children are murdered, police do whatever it takes to get the killer--if they know or suspect who the killer is. If they don't have evidence, the most common standard procedure would be to arrest the suspect for an unrelated crime (they would have to find a committed crime but in the USA there are so many laws that everyone is a lawbreaker--giving the police the opportunity to arrest pretty much anyone they want to target.) They would arrest the suspect on Friday evening because the court is then closed and won't reopen until Monday morning. That gives police the entire weekend to interrogate the suspect in custody without having to release them. Come Monday morning, with court open again, all those arrested over the weekend get their initial hearing and would likely be released pending trial.
The idea that police know who the killer is but are afraid to commit to doing what is necessary to protect the public and seek justice for the murdered girls due to fears of being sued, etc., is unreasonable.

OK

A school dropout who the combined police\/FBI forces can't find nor apprehend for 3 years might have a pretty decent IQ...




Well, we have several versions.

- the police has no clue who he is. The face on Libby's video is a pixelated blur, the voice is generic, no additional information on the recording, friends know nothing, her SM unrevealing.

OK, then assume it is a serial killer, warn everyone in the country, pull up all similar cases, do the job.
And tell people that there is a SK on the loose.

Instead, the sheriff says people the locals should not be scared, Kelsi is not scared. Moreover, the LE says he is local.

Another version - he is local but no one has seen nor heard about him. He is unrecognizable. Unusual, right? (But might happen... but then how can they state that no one is in danger? How can they know it?)

Another version - LE has some idea who he is but is lacking solid proof, needs more information, but the person has the money to hire attorneys to block such actions. This is very possible.

"Afraid"... I doubt that people with real power that would scare DC into submission live in/around Delphi. So "afraid" is not the term. But there is a situation when the LE is hindered by own mistakes made early in the course of the investigation, and does not want to discuss them; I view it as quite possible.

RL is Ron Logan whose interview I find interesting.

What if the BG is political figure or someone highly respected? May be harder to apprehend. JMOT

 

[HOPE770145]

In the mind of a sick child killer almost anything could trigger anger though. It could have been Libby's hair color, her build, what she was wearing, how he observed her acting on that day on the trails that day, any of those things. Just the fact that her shoe was found could mean he had a hold of Abby and Libby tried something, that could have angered him more against her, just that. I'm not saying I discount previous interaction, I haven't.

Why do people say he was angry towards her?

 

[HOPE770145]

Correct.
I've had questions since LE put out the new sketch.
Are we still looking for not blue eyes?
Are we still looking for reddish brown hair?

So now I'm looking at a younger guy with blue eyes potentially. Totally diff than original pic on bridge

 

[somequestions]

No, I do not think Libby and Abby's case is cold. Far from it. The case of the murdered girl in my area happened on May 17, 1990, so there will be another round of articles in the coming weeks. Also, she was taken from her car and found dead several days later and not shot as I posted before. There will be active discussion in the comments sections of these articles also and on the facebook pages. I just looked it up so it has been almost 31 years instead of 20. I sincerely hope it is not decades before the killer of these two girls in Delphi is brought to justice. Sometimes it happens.

In terms of the investigation and the direction of the investigation, I definitely think this is a cold case. But there is one exception and that is the audio/video Liberty German captured with her phone. If someone can sit back and distinguish that from the two bad sketches, then I think this case could change tomorrow.

The case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German is a cautionary tale. It is an example of the fact that even with evidence, a voice, and a picture, you still need someone to connect it to. Detectives still need to do their jobs as thoroughly as they would if they did not have all that evidence. And they need to be careful to remember to consider every case on a case-by-case basis. Public places present problems because they can be accessed by anyone. This would be especially evident if the killer is not from Delphi, IN or the surrounding area. The idea that he worked, lived, or traveled to Delphi covers just about any sort of association since in order to know a place, all of us usually become familiar with a place for some reason that requires us to have travelled there.

This is definitely a cold case now. I do not think the detectives are going to solve this case by something they do. This is what I mean by "cold case." If this case is ever solved, in my opinion, it will be because of a 14 year old girl pulling out her phone and hitting record.

 

[MistyWaters]

What's a RL? So many mysterious abbreviations on this site!
Be real, the likelihood of the killer being a successful attorney or a local doctor is slim to none. Likely the killer is a high school dropout.
My point is saying the police do not have a clue as to who the killer is, is because when 2 inocent children are murdered, police do whatever it takes to get the killer--if they know or suspect who the killer is. If they don't have evidence, the most common standard procedure would be to arrest the suspect for an unrelated crime (they would have to find a committed crime but in the USA there are so many laws that everyone is a lawbreaker--giving the police the opportunity to arrest pretty much anyone they want to target.) They would arrest the suspect on Friday evening because the court is then closed and won't reopen until Monday morning. That gives police the entire weekend to interrogate the suspect in custody without having to release them. Come Monday morning, with court open again, all those arrested over the weekend get their initial hearing and would likely be released pending trial.
The idea that police know who the killer is but are afraid to commit to doing what is necessary to protect the public and seek justice for the murdered girls due to fears of being sued, etc., is unreasonable.

And to your scenario, once the media gets wind of a person being questioned for information that’s possibly connected to the Delphi double murders, that’s when tips flood in (or not) against that one person LE is most interested in. If LE knows who the killer is, they’ve already questioned everyone directly associated with this person so their interest is in other unidentified people who might know something incriminating.

Whereas holding wide open “somebody knows this person” Press Conferences has to be the most ineffective means possible if LE already has identified the killer because it results in thousands of tips that LE obviously wouldn’t be interested in. In past cases I’ve followed, it can be a positive sign when LE goes quiet that a case is about to break open.....not when they’re pleading with the public for leads. JMO