Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[Yemelyan]

But what gets to me is who could do something like this to someone who could be our daughters or grand-daughters or nieces? I can't imagine that in my mind.

If you really can't imagine it, you're lucky.

If you want to understand sexually motivated murder (which I believe the Delphi ones are), my advice is to read the book Sexual Murders: Comparative Analysis and New Perspectives (eds Proulx et al). Sorry, there's no online link that I know of (I also haven't looked), but this book will tell you what you need to know.

The FBI has outlined the process by which many (not all...but many) murderers develop. In a nutshell, sexual, physical, or psychological victimization experiences result can result in social isolation and favor the emergence of violent fantasies which compensate for the lack of real life control.

Fantasies of coercion and violence become stimuli to these individuals, ones that trigger a sexual response. Feelings of rage and the need to dominate are completely entwined with the sexual response.

If an offender seeks power, when he acts out sexually, this aggression allows him to dominate his victim to the highest degree. Usually because of his own negative experiences, the suffering of others sexually excites this type of offender. And this is also why it's important to understand that this offender is often opportunistically looking for ANY type of victim as a means of asserting his control. He will therefore choose anyone who he judges to be weaker than himself in the moment. (With this knowledge, think back to Carter in the press conference emphasizing "what will your family think....two LITTLE girls.")

This type of sexually motivated offender does not actually need to complete the sexual assault part of the crime to derive gratification. The act of murder itself, when the offender completely controls the life or death of the victim, can be the climax. For days, weeks, months or years after the murder, fantasies and memories of the event can act as a surrogate means of satisfaction.

If the Delphi murders were sexually motivated, this is the type of person who committed them. I could say a lot more on the subject, but that's an overview.

 

[stattlich1]

Once again, I read references to the possibility of more than one killer.

It almost seems as though something went on that day that is different than much of what is surmised in these threads.

As said upthread, an outlier of outliers.

 

[SMK777]

But in my personal opinion, I think if the case is ever solved people are going to look back on it and realize, "Oh my goodness, what if she hadn't taken that video?!"

That is what I mean by this case possibly becoming a case study for other law enforcement agencies.

Understood. Thanks, I think you’re probably right.

 

[SMK777]

Just some thoughts:
I was thinking recently about the difference between solving a crime “on time” and solving it decades later as a cold case. It seems in the latter there is often no sense of closure, justice, or relief for the families and communities after solving it.

Two examples came to mind from years of reading true crime:

1. One was a case that happened in the early 1970s, where 2 sisters, ages 10 and 12, vanished from a strip mall. It turned out that the abductor/killer had been interviewed on the very first day, but wasn’t arrested until 3 decades later. When there was an arrest and press conference, the now elderly parents seemed very aloof and bewildered, and said they were tired and “just wanted to go home”.

2. The second case was in 1969, where 2 college girls on their way to PA for a long weekend home had stopped in New Jersey. They had eaten an early breakfast at a diner, and within 10 minutes of leaving had been pushed off the Garden State Parkway, taken into the woods, and raped and murdered. The case was never solved, but decades later when there was a POI and a new theory, a journalist had called the father of one of the victims, who said they were no longer interested in talking about the case, and to please just leave them alone.

My point being: It seems important to solve a case on time to bring closure and a sense of justice to families and communities. Praying the Delphi murders will not be solved as decades-old cold cases.

 

[Yemelyan]

Once again, I read references to the possibility of more than one killer.

It almost seems as though something went on that day that is different than much of what is surmised in these threads.

As said upthread, an outlier of outliers.

If there were two killers operating as a team in the Delphi case, it would hardly make it an outlier of outliers. I was shocked to read recently that 20% of serial killers operated with accomplices (usually working as a duo). I doubted this figure myself but when I looked into it I found multiple researchers have arrived at a similar figure.

Here's one source for it:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...wGQOZrOwSAWm2jjS2&ampcf=1&cshid=1596288799931

Admittedly we do not know yet if the Delphi case is in series.

 

[SMK777]

If there were two killers operating as a team in the Delphi case, it would hardly make it an outlier of outliers. I was shocked to read recently that 20% of serial killers operated with accomplices (usually working as a duo). I doubted this figure myself but when I looked into it I found multiple researchers have arrived at a similar figure.

Here's one source for it:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201407/partners-in-crime?amp&ved=2ahUKEwj95Y7ijvrqAhUBmnIEHVyQAicQFjAMegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3gUTYwGQOZrOwSAWm2jjS2&ampcf=1&cshid=1596288799931

Admittedly we do not know yet if the Delphi case is in series.

That’s really surprising. Makes the idea that BG had an accomplice more plausible.

 

[SMK777]

Just some thoughts:
I was thinking recently about the difference between solving a crime “on time” and solving it decades later as a cold case. It seems in the latter there is often no sense of closure, justice, or relief for the families and communities after solving it.

Two examples came to mind from years of reading true crime:

1. One was a case that happened in the early 1970s, where 2 sisters, ages 10 and 12, vanished from a strip mall. It turned out that the abductor/killer had been interviewed on the very first day, but wasn’t arrested until 3 decades later. When there was an arrest and press conference, the now elderly parents seemed very aloof and bewildered, and said they were tired and “just wanted to go home”.

2. The second case was in 1969, where 2 college girls on their way to PA for a long weekend home had stopped in New Jersey. They had eaten an early breakfast at a diner, and within 10 minutes of leaving had been pushed off the Garden State Parkway, taken into the woods, and raped and murdered. The case was never solved, but decades later when there was a POI and a new theory, a journalist had called the father of one of the victims, who said they were no longer interested in talking about the case, and to please just leave them alone.

My point being: It seems important to solve a case on time to bring closure and a sense of justice to families and communities. Praying the Delphi murders will not be solved as decades-old cold cases.

Bringing my own post forward as it’s too late to edit: Just recalled that in the first case, it was actually 40+ years when it was finally solved.

 

[Charlot123]

Bringing my own post forward as it’s too late to edit: Just recalled that in the first case, it was actually 40+ years when it was finally solved.

And it is not only about the parents who wait for too long to get a closure. In 40+ years, many friends, relatives, anyone who knew the live person, might be gone, or fully move on, so there are very few people remembering the victim. Who in turn becomes a statistical number.

(Example: Susan Galvin, murdered in Seattle elevator 52 years ago. Kudos to Parabon, who recently identified the perp’s DNA. The man is long dead, can’t be charged, of course; Susan’s parents are dead, the first detective handling the case is dead. Still great that the case was solved, but poor Susan, who was 20, is now “the oldest case solved with DNA genealogy”. Statistics).

 

[Yemelyan]

Bringing my own post forward as it’s too late to edit: Just recalled that in the first case, it was actually 40+ years when it was finally solved.

There were actually a couple of inaccuracies in what you wrote. The main two being the timing and the fact that the person who was ultimately convicted in that case wasn't interviewed the same day, he came forward several days later in a bid to insert himself into the case.

If anyone interested in the Delphi murders wants to look into a possibly similar scenario (two victims abducted at the same time, a sketch of the offender was available, a potential tip was left in the case file uninvestigated for decades) this case, which is the murder of the Lyon sisters in the 1970s, is a good one to study.

If nothing else it reminds us that in the Delphi case, as in many murder investigations, sometimes patience is necessary. The passage of time does not mean that investigators have nothing or are getting nowhere. Investigators began interrogating a convicted prisoner in connection with the Lyon murders but it took over three years of interviews to get him to fully implicate himself in both the kidnapping, rape, murder and disposal of their bodies. The victims' remains have not been confirmed to be found to this day.

 

[SMK777]

There were actually a couple of inaccuracies in what you wrote. The main two being the timing and the fact that the person who was ultimately convicted in that case wasn't interviewed the same day, he came forward several days later in a bid to insert himself into the case.

If anyone interested in the Delphi murders wants to look into a possibly similar scenario (two victims abducted at the same time, a sketch of the offender was available, a potential tip was left in the case file uninvestigated for decades) this case, which is the murder of the Lyon sisters in the 1970s, is a good one to study.

If nothing else it reminds us that in the Delphi case, as in many murder investigations, sometimes patience is necessary. The passage of time does not mean that investigators have nothing or are getting nowhere. Investigators began interrogating a convicted prisoner in connection with the Lyon murders but it took over three years of interviews to get him to fully implicate himself in both the kidnapping, rape, murder and disposal of their bodies. The victims' remains have not been confirmed to be found to this day.

Yes, I’m refreshing my memory: but I believe my point is valid about families and communities needing a timely resolution for the reasons I stated in my initial post.

The abductor and killer came forward and was interviewed by mall security/police within days of the crime and was arrested 40 years later:

Two sisters vanished four decades ago from a shopping mall. Here’s how the case was finally solved.

 

[TedMac]

There were actually a couple of inaccuracies in what you wrote. The main two being the timing and the fact that the person who was ultimately convicted in that case wasn't interviewed the same day, he came forward several days later in a bid to insert himself into the case.

If anyone interested in the Delphi murders wants to look into a possibly similar scenario (two victims abducted at the same time, a sketch of the offender was available, a potential tip was left in the case file uninvestigated for decades) this case, which is the murder of the Lyon sisters in the 1970s, is a good one to study.

If nothing else it reminds us that in the Delphi case, as in many murder investigations, sometimes patience is necessary. The passage of time does not mean that investigators have nothing or are getting nowhere. Investigators began interrogating a convicted prisoner in connection with the Lyon murders but it took over three years of interviews to get him to fully implicate himself in both the kidnapping, rape, murder and disposal of their bodies. The victims' remains have not been confirmed to be found to this day.

Just wanted to add one thing to the initial interview of the killer in the Lyons sisters case. The perp came forward with inaccurate information in a clumsy attempt to collect the reward money. His story was quickly proven to be false and he was dismissed as a kook.

 

[rosesfromangels]

As we've all pondered, I do think it's highly likely the Perp is somewhere in all those leads LE has. As we've also discussed, I think it's time to revisit those leads with some other experts, who might provide a different perspective. There are various groups who do this from a LE perspective, but I would love to see members from "think tank" groups or Universities involved as well. I think this would be a very interesting assembly.

As I think about these girls this morning and wonder what is being missed, I keep going back to Libby's phone. It is very notable that the Perp didn't take the phone or respond to it in some manner (maybe they threw it aside, who knows). However, largely, they seemed to ignore it. Despite Libby's cleverness, they would have seen it at some point IWT?

What does this mean? Sure, maybe they didn't see it and it got tossed aside or dropped during the attack. But what if they did see it and didn't see it as a concern? What does that tell us? Some speculations....

1. They were in a demented/altered state of killing and didn't notice or care?
2. They saw it but didn't think of it as a threat because no one was using it to speak during the attack? (They don't understand technology and how the other features would be a potential threat?)
3. He saw the phone and didn't care - it might have even added to the "thrill", similar to allegedly killing them within view/earshot of surrounding homes? (Allegedly)

So here is what I'm thinking today, and remember this is amateur OPINION AND SPECULATION.

I speculate Abby had been communicating with a "boy" on one of the teen messaging apps that quickly disappears and is hard to track. Abby receives a message to meet this boy on bridge. The girls get dropped off at the bridge, and at a certain point Libby posts a pic to show "the boy" Abby is there, and waiting to meet him.

The Perp has been watching and scouting the area and knows it's clear of other hikers. (From a deer stand?) He seemingly knows it's a day off from school, and that the homeowners near the CS are not in their residences at the time of the attack. It would seem this Perp knows a lot of local info, and schedules.

Now this is where I need all of you to help me think this through and fill in some info I don't have/can't recall. Wasn't it confirmed that one of the homeowners near the CS was off his property the day of the murders? (RL?)
Where did he go? The Perp *had* to have known RL's schedule and business that was being conducted that day......why?

Anyone who had knowledge of the schedule of RL that day would be on my short POI list.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[SMK777]

Just wanted to add one thing to the initial interview of the killer in the Lyons sisters case. The perp came forward with inaccurate information in a clumsy attempt to collect the reward money. His story was quickly proven to be false and he was dismissed as a kook.

Thanks, you’re right.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If there were two killers operating as a team in the Delphi case, it would hardly make it an outlier of outliers. I was shocked to read recently that 20% of serial killers operated with accomplices (usually working as a duo). I doubted this figure myself but when I looked into it I found multiple researchers have arrived at a similar figure.

Here's one source for it:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201407/partners-in-crime?amp&ved=2ahUKEwj95Y7ijvrqAhUBmnIEHVyQAicQFjAMegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3gUTYwGQOZrOwSAWm2jjS2&ampcf=1&cshid=1596288799931

Admittedly we do not know yet if the Delphi case is in series.

Thank you! Interesting!

More than a fifth of serial killers operate in teams, most involving two offenders. One is invariably a dominant figure who looks for someone deeply insecure, often exploiting youth, neediness, mental instability, or low intelligence, according to Eric W. Hickey, a forensic psychologist and the author of Serial Murderers and Their Victims. In his analysis of more than 500 serial killer teams, each had one person who maintained psychological control.

The murderous duo relationship is characterized by a strong interdependence in which both parties need something critical from the other, explains Al Carlisle, Ph.D., a former prison psychologist and the author of I'm Not Guilty: The Case of Ted Bundy. "The dominant person needs the follower's total loyalty in order to validate him- or herself," says Carlisle. "The subservient follower needs the power and authority of the dominant person, so he or she attempts to become that person's shadow and to mirror the dominant person's beliefs and ethics. Each receives justification from the other."
-.-.-.-
I think, the dominant person's beliefs and ethics may be mirrored even easier, if someone with the same parental education is the second one in the sk-team: a brother for example. MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

This was at the 2 year mark when there are 38K tips and LE has talked to 1,100 people. That is something compared to cases on here that we were to combine 4 or 5 of them they wouldn't haven't these numbers. Now they have between 50K and 60K in tips? And who knows how many names added to that 1.1K of people talked to? Any way I look at it this is a case of proportions I haven't seen before.

And yet it isn't solved. Amazing. But what gets to me is who could do something like this to someone who could be our daughters or grand-daughters or nieces? I can't imagine that in my mind.

Yes and that was prior to the release of the younger sketch. But of the earlier 38,000, what’s interesting is only 1000 resulted in interviews of persons of interest, including “anybody and everybody that's involved in this case” - which says to me that number also includes potential witnesses/tipsters, people walking the trails that day, area residents, family members, friends etc - as not only potential suspects are persons of interest to police in this investigation. Anyone with information to help them solve the crime is as well.

That says to me there was a very low volume of interviews based on 38,000 tips. Probably a lot were duplicate tips on the same person due to the SM POI-of-the-day or based on media reports of other crimes, etc or many tips were without an identifiable person attached ie some lookalike guy shopping in a FL Walmart a week ago from last Saturday.

So now the tip number has increased to 40,000 or 50,000. Of that number I’m very curious how many are actual solid tips from a person who had personal interactions with the person they are tipping on, enough to know there’s good reason to be suspicious of a potential suspect who could’ve been or was in the Delphi area on that day. And how many interviews altogether have taken place of men who were or are considered potential suspects? That number is far more indicative of the intensity of the investigation on this case, rather than the flouting of the astronomical tip numbers IMO.

Another unusual thing I’ve noticed about this case, never ever have LE issued a release requesting so-and-so contact them as they believe that person may have information relating to the Delphi murders. There’s not even one person who might be of interest who they’ve been unsuccessful in contacting or locating? I guess not. Even if that person had nothing to do with the crime, a later release letting the public know so-and-so has contacted LE and is not considered a suspect quells any rumours. In this case LE has never reached out to anyone through the media, other than public release of the two different sketches, identity unknown.

 

[SMK777]

Now this is where I need all of you to help me think this through and fill in some info I don't have/can't recall. Wasn't it confirmed that one of the homeowners near the CS was off his property the day of the murders? (RL?)
Where did he go? The Perp *had* to have known RL's schedule and business that was being conducted that day......why?

They said RL went to the dump and to a pizza/beer restaurant.

This is why I was always suspicious about their arresting him on the probation violations that this entailed : by jailing him, were they trying to put pressure on him (ie, we’ll let you out if you tell us what you know/suspect):

could BG have been a friend/handyman/delivery person acquainted with RL?

 

[Yemelyan]

Yes and that was prior to the release of the younger sketch. But of the earlier 38,000, what’s interesting is only 1000 resulted in interviews of persons of interest, including “anybody and everybody that's involved in this case” - which says to me that number also includes potential witnesses/tipsters, people walking the trails that day, area residents, family members, friends etc - as not only potential suspects are persons of interest to police in this investigation. Anyone with information to help them solve the crime is as well.

That says to me there was a very low volume of interviews based on 38,000 tips. Probably a lot were duplicate tips on the same person due to the SM POI-of-the-day or based on media reports of other crimes, etc or many tips were without an identifiable person attached ie some lookalike guy shopping in a FL Walmart a week ago from last Saturday.

So now the tip number has increased to 40,000 or 50,000. Of that number I’m very curious how many are actual solid tips from a person who had personal interactions with the person they are tipping on, enough to know there’s good reason to be suspicious of a potential suspect who could’ve been or was in the Delphi area on that day. And how many interviews altogether have taken place of men who were or are considered potential suspects? That number is far more indicative of the intensity of the investigation on this case, rather than the flouting of the astronomical tip numbers IMO.

.

RSBM.

I agree with this and I think probably the bulk of the tips were not even related to the specific identity of a person, they were probably useless things from an investigation perspective such as "check out security cameras from local businesses" and "I think he has a gun in his pocket."

 

[MistyWaters]

RSBM.

I agree with this and I think probably the bulk of the tips were not even related to the specific identity of a person, they were probably useless things from an investigation perspective such as "check out security cameras from local businesses" and "I think he has a gun in his pocket."

Oh yes, I forgot about that. I sure agree, probably tons of useless tips telling the investigators what or how to investigate, and what they think they see in the photos or sketches that police ought to know about to narrow down a suspect. I can’t find the quote at the moment but LE has finally mentioned they don’t require the public’s tips in that regard.

 

[MistyWaters]

They said RL went to the dump and to a pizza/beer restaurant.

This is why I was always suspicious about their arresting him on the probation violations that this entailed : by jailing him, were they trying to put pressure on him (ie, we’ll let you out if you tell us what you know/suspect):

could BG have been a friend/handyman/delivery person acquainted with RL?

After he admitted he violated his probation, he wasn’t home that afternoon because he was driving even though his drivers licence was revoked, how would’ve it looked if LE had simply ignored it? Investigating a murder while looking the other direction away from other illegal offences occurring does not put LE in a good light especially because RL likely will become a prosecution witness as he is the land owner. Worst case scenario - the suggestion would be on the table that LE turned a blind eye in exchange for something else ie implying corruption.

And it’s the judge who sentences and jails, not LE.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

They said RL went to the dump and to a pizza/beer restaurant.

This is why I was always suspicious about their arresting him on the probation violations that this entailed : by jailing him, were they trying to put pressure on him (ie, we’ll let you out if you tell us what you know/suspect):

could BG have been a friend/handyman/delivery person acquainted with RL?

Maybe, BG spied on RL for some time, learning, that he would like to have his beers in town and would often be absent from his property for hours (IF so). Maybe, BG drank some beers with him even. On this occasion/s BG might have questioned him nonchalant and heard about the neighboring "snow birds" also. I think, that MHB area was a teenager meeting point, he knew by other sources any way. - Who knows, how thoroughly he was/is planning his crimes? MOO