Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[Andreee]

As a Canadian it’s totally bizarre to me how much blabbing individual members of LE have done on their own since the beginning of this case, from FB interviews to bloggers to media interviews. Where I live only official statements through press conferences or press releases are issued, very rarely are LE privately interviewed.

I agree with you, it’s really difficult to know if some of the information stated is personal opinion or the consensus of the Task Force. During the last press conference, Carter’s dramatic presentation is also an example of how mis-information can be provided due to somebody not following a scripted official release, vetted for accuracy. I have concerns about the effect of the high attention devoted to LE whenever they individually speak out. I’m reminded of the public yearning for inside information and details much the same way as interest is placed on the lives of rich and famous celebrities especially if scandal is involved.

IMO the Task Force should issue a Fact Sheet to clarify whatever information they choose to reveal, involving absolutely no speculation or innuendo. If they don’t know something they should just say so. If they choose not to address certain details to protect the integrity of the investigation, they can state that too.

For example,
- this blue eye thing. Are we to believe the killer does not have blue eyes or just the person depicted in sketch #1.
- What exactly does 18 to 40 years of age, may look younger mean? May look 18 to 40 but actual age is older? Or actual age is 18 to 40 but looks younger?
- Leazenby recently stated both men are considered POIs who police would like to talk to. Is this to say the killer might not resemble either sketch and what that’s about, that he might look like half way in-between?
- If more than one person was involved, is there reason to believe there’s any connection between the two different people in the sketches?
- The request abut the driver of the car parked at the abandoned welfare bldg lot from noon to 5pm. Was the suspect believed to be the driver of this vehicle or did LE just want to talk to somebody they had no other way of contacting.
- there’s more I’m sure......

But even these examples might convince somebody a tip on a possible suspect who they know just isn’t warranted - (whew,it can’t be him!) Especially if it’s a family member whom the tipster doesn’t want to believe could ever be responsible for the murder of two innocent teens. I’d imagine it’s easy to send in a tip on a stranger, much more difficult if it’s someone who’s involved in our day-to-day lives. JMO

As a Canadian myself, yes re. LE being tight lipped here. And I believe a year or so ago the rules were changed so that RCMP and other LE officials didn't have to disclose even as much as they do re. criminal investigations. Not that that is a bad thing.

 

[JnRyan]

In regards to the two sketches—the following differences are noted in the podcasts.

Date sketch was released:
#1 - 07/17/2017
#2 - 04/22/2019

Date sketch was drawn:
#1 - months after the murders and over the course of a month
#2 - 02/17/2017

Sketch Artist:
#1 - an FBI sketch artist
#2 - ISP Master Trooper Taylor Bryant

Info Artist Used to Create Sketch:
#1 - composite drawing based on the descriptions given by at least 2 witnesses (one is believed to be Dan McCain and another is believed to be a woman who reported seeing the man walking near Delphi around the time of the murders—the woman didn’t come forward until months later)
#2 - based on a single witness who saw something on February 13th that she felt needed to be reported (it’s not known if she saw something on the trails or elsewhere)

Physical Description:
#1 - reddish brown hair; unknown eye color; white male between 5’6” and 5’10”; 180-220 pounds; hat may not be accurate
#2 - white male between 180-200 pounds; Carter said the man was between 18-40 and may appear younger than his true age; the FBI says the man is in his mid-20s to mid-30s

Sketch Depicts:
#1 - broad face; bulbous nose; hooded eyes; goatee and mustache
#2 - thin face; pointy nose; thin lips; curly hair; clean shaven

Outstanding summary. The only thing I might add - and I don't believe it was in the podcast you take this info from - is that LE might have said the person in Sketch #1 did not have blue eyes.

 

[cujenn81]

Outstanding summary. The only thing I might add - and I don't believe it was in the podcast you take this info from - is that LE might have said the person in Sketch #1 did not have blue eyes.

The podcast mentions the woman that reported seeing him near Delphi that day and they talk about how she was close enough to the man to know that his eyes aren’t blue. I‘m not sure if LE ever confirmed it in an official statement, so I just kept color unknown to be safe.

 

[MistyWaters]

The podcast mentions the woman that reported seeing him near Delphi that day and they talk about how she was close enough to the man to know that his eyes aren’t blue. I‘m not sure if LE ever confirmed it in an official statement, so I just kept color unknown to be safe.

The FBI poster has consistently reported Eye Color as Unknown as well, even when the first sketch was featured.

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/liberty-german/download.pdf
“The person depicted in the composite sketch is described as a White male between 5'6" and 5'10", weighing 180 to 220 pounds, with reddish- brown hair. His eye color is unknown.”

 

[rosesfromangels]

I believe we are supposed to forget about the first sketch completely? I think lol. One thing that confuses me that I keep forget to mention is that by all accounts BG was wearing some kind of covering over his head at various points when witnesses saw him. So why does the sketch show him as having curly hair? Also, according to some accounts, one or several people saw him after the crime leaving via the main entrance area. Would this be safest route if that 'abandoned' vehicle actually was his mode of transportation? I learned something else new from that recent amazing transcription someone here did that a witness recalls seeing a man leaving via the cemetery at some point, wonder what time though? I would think if that was his vehicle or even for a shorter route that that way would be a much better exit place. So why did witnesses seem to see him leave the longer and more visible route? Kinda perplexing for me, both those things re. the hair description and exit route.

Yes....all very confusing. Likely not confusing to LE, and will make sense to us when there is finally an arrest(s). I'm trying to be a good citizen and stay strictly on board with what LE is stating - so as not to add confusion to an already very confused case. (At least outwardly confusing to us citizens).

I can only come up with two explanations for the two sketches.
(1) The guy in the original sketch was ruled out
(2) The second sketch represents an accomplice - I know this has not been stated by police so a big wild card on that one.

Logically, I can *not* see the Perp leaving the way he came - I think those sitings must be inaccurate? He would have surely shown signs of the attack on his person? I counting on Libby having gotten at least some good scratches in, God love her.

I think the Perp had a "changing station" close by the CS; perhaps even at one of the unoccupied properties close by. We can only hope that possibility was carefully examined. He might have even hid out at one of the properties, enjoying watching all the aftermath. Or, he might have just sauntered off with his malfunctioning frontal lobe, likely through the cemetery area, and went an enjoyed a big supper.

And I think there are more than a few people in Delphi who strongly suspect this Loser, and have for quite some time. I don't think the Perp will end up being someone prominent that will "shock" everyone, but rather some creep that has long been in the shadows, and long considered "weird". Or as the girls said, "creepy".

Whatever else LE needs to proceed to arrest, let's hope it materializes soon.

ETA: I would be taking a VERY close look at anyone who is responsible for caretaking any of the properties in the immediate vicinity of the CS. To me, it is most logical that the Perp is somehow tied to one of those properties; whether the cemetery, the unoccupied house, or the other surrounding residences.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[rosesfromangels]

10 Baffling Wives of Serial Killers
10 Baffling Wives of Serial Killers - Listverse

Until her husband, Gary Ridgeway, confessed two years after his arrest, Judith Mawson refused to believe he had killed 70 people and was the person authorities had nicknamed the Green River Serial Killer. Indeed, they were happily married for 13 years, and she even told reporters that “he made me smile every day” and was the “perfect husband.”

This my friends, is called *denial*
Sure, the perfect husband except for that pesky little hobby of his.

 

[SMK777]

ETA: I would be taking a VERY close look at anyone who is responsible for caretaking any of the properties in the immediate vicinity of the CS. To me, it is most logical that the Perp is somehow tied to one of those properties; whether the cemetery, the unoccupied house, or the other surrounding residences.

I agree with you strongly on this.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I agree with you strongly on this.

This could include visiting relatives, grown children who return for visits, grounds keepers, delivery persons and so forth. For me, the anchor is the location, and the surrounding properties. Clearly, that spot was carefully chosen.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Yemelyan]

I can only come up with two explanations for the two sketches.
(1) The guy in the original sketch was ruled out
(2) The second sketch represents an accomplice - I know this has not been stated by police so a big wild card on that one.

RSBM

Probably there's also a third explanation, which is that generating a composite is a subjective process and witnesses are generally not that great at remembering in situations like this.

Also keep in mind that composite sketches are really intended to jog the memory of people who saw the event OR know the suspect personally. They do not work that well for what internet sleuths try to do, which is find side by sides and compare random individuals to the sketch looking for similarities.

 

[Andreee]

Yes....all very confusing. Likely not confusing to LE, and will make sense to us when there is finally an arrest(s). I'm trying to be a good citizen and stay strictly on board with what LE is stating - so as not to add confusion to an already very confused case. (At least outwardly confusing to us citizens).

I can only come up with two explanations for the two sketches.
(1) The guy in the original sketch was ruled out
(2) The second sketch represents an accomplice - I know this has not been stated by police so a big wild card on that one.

Logically, I can *not* see the Perp leaving the way he came - I think those sitings must be inaccurate? He would have surely shown signs of the attack on his person? I counting on Libby having gotten at least some good scratches in, God love her.

I think the Perp had a "changing station" close by the CS; perhaps even at one of the unoccupied properties close by. We can only hope that possibility was carefully examined. He might have even hid out at one of the properties, enjoying watching all the aftermath. Or, he might have just sauntered off with his malfunctioning frontal lobe, likely through the cemetery area, and went an enjoyed a big supper.

And I think there are more than a few people in Delphi who strongly suspect this Loser, and have for quite some time. I don't think the Perp will end up being someone prominent that will "shock" everyone, but rather some creep that has long been in the shadows, and long considered "weird". Or as the girls said, "creepy".

Whatever else LE needs to proceed to arrest, let's hope it materializes soon.

ETA: I would be taking a VERY close look at anyone who is responsible for caretaking any of the properties in the immediate vicinity of the CS. To me, it is most logical that the Perp is somehow tied to one of those properties; whether the cemetery, the unoccupied house, or the other surrounding residences.

Amateur opinion and speculation[/Q

Good points. I'm hoping someone will comment on my observation that the second sketch shows the suspect with a full head of curly dark hair! This is something I haven't seen discussed before, as in WHEN would a witness have seen his full face and hair on display. By all accounts, he either had hat on, hat and hood on, and even a scarf of some kind. So this sketch befuddles me. lol.

 

[Andreee]

Good points. I'm hoping someone will comment on my observation that the second sketch shows the suspect with a full head of curly dark hair! This is something I haven't seen discussed before, as in WHEN would a witness have seen his full face and hair on display. By all accounts, he either had hat on, hat and hood on, and even a scarf of some kind. So this sketch befuddles me. lol.

 

[Andreee]

The podcast mentions the woman that reported seeing him near Delphi that day and they talk about how she was close enough to the man to know that his eyes aren’t blue. I‘m not sure if LE ever confirmed it in an official statement, so I just kept color unknown to be safe.

Yes, I recall hearing that before re. the eyes not being blue. I sure would like to know where this woman saw him and when! I'm not clear as to which sketch she was referring to either.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Good points. I'm hoping someone will comment on my observation that the second sketch shows the suspect with a full head of curly dark hair! This is something I haven't seen discussed before, as in WHEN would a witness have seen his full face and hair on display. By all accounts, he either had hat on, hat and hood on, and even a scarf of some kind. So this sketch befuddles me. lol.

Add me to that befuddled list.
That sketch doesn’t match that voice or blurry photo, to me. Of course we have little to work with, so who knows. Where did the witness see him is the big question.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[JDough]

As a Canadian it’s totally bizarre to me how much blabbing individual members of LE have done on their own since the beginning of this case, from FB interviews to bloggers to media interviews. Where I live only official statements through press conferences or press releases are issued, very rarely are LE privately interviewed.

I agree with you, it’s really difficult to know if some of the information stated is personal opinion or the consensus of the Task Force. During the last press conference, Carter’s dramatic presentation is also an example of how mis-information can be provided due to somebody not following a scripted official release, vetted for accuracy. I have concerns about the effect of the high attention devoted to LE whenever they individually speak out. I’m reminded of the public yearning for inside information and details much the same way as interest is placed on the lives of rich and famous celebrities especially if scandal is involved.

IMO the Task Force should issue a Fact Sheet to clarify whatever information they choose to reveal, involving absolutely no speculation or innuendo. If they don’t know something they should just say so. If they choose not to address certain details to protect the integrity of the investigation, they can state that too.

For example,
- this blue eye thing. Are we to believe the killer does not have blue eyes or just the person depicted in sketch #1.
- What exactly does 18 to 40 years of age, may look younger mean? May look 18 to 40 but actual age is older? Or actual age is 18 to 40 but looks younger?
- Leazenby recently stated both men are considered POIs who police would like to talk to. Is this to say the killer might not resemble either sketch and what that’s about, that he might look like half way in-between?
- If more than one person was involved, is there reason to believe there’s any connection between the two different people in the sketches?
- The request abut the driver of the car parked at the abandoned welfare bldg lot from noon to 5pm. Was the suspect believed to be the driver of this vehicle or did LE just want to talk to somebody they had no other way of contacting.
- there’s more I’m sure......

But even these examples might convince somebody a tip on a possible suspect who they know just isn’t warranted - (whew,it can’t be him!) Especially if it’s a family member whom the tipster doesn’t want to believe could ever be responsible for the murder of two innocent teens. I’d imagine it’s easy to send in a tip on a stranger, much more difficult if it’s someone who’s involved in our day-to-day lives. JMO

Yes- that blabbing many of them have done....... loose lips sink ships.

These unofficial statements are conflicting and confusing. I don't recall seeing this in any other case I've followed over the years. Not to this magnitude, anyway. I love the idea of a fact sheet. Unfortunately, I don't think investigators agree on what the facts are at this point.

 

[Andreee]

Add me to that befuddled list.
That sketch doesn’t match that voice or blurry photo, to me. Of course we have little to work with, so who knows. Where did the witness see him is the big question.

amateur opinion and speculation

It seems that witness may've seen him somewhere other than the trail area, from the sounds of it. And while several witnesses gave vivid accounts (along the way I've read this) about seeing the suspect AFTER the crime on the main trail area, it does not seem likely he would leave that way. We know so little really.

 

[Andreee]

Yes- that blabbing many of them have done....... loose lips sink ships.

These unofficial statements are conflicting and confusing. I don't recall seeing this in any other case I've followed over the years. Not to this magnitude, anyway. I love the idea of a fact sheet. Unfortunately, I don't think investigators agree on what the facts are at this point.

Very frustrating! I can't imagine at all what the families of the victims go through, I just can't!

 

[cujenn81]

Good points. I'm hoping someone will comment on my observation that the second sketch shows the suspect with a full head of curly dark hair! This is something I haven't seen discussed before, as in WHEN would a witness have seen his full face and hair on display. By all accounts, he either had hat on, hat and hood on, and even a scarf of some kind. So this sketch befuddles me. lol.

It is my belief (and this is just pure speculation on my part) that the witness saw the man depicted in the second sketch somewhere nearby — not on the trails — earlier or later in the day. Perhaps this guy was acting super sketchy, so she decided to tell investigators about it. LE may have dismissed the story initially — as her description of the guy doesn’t seem to match up with the guy in the video.

When nothing came of the first sketch, LE likely revisited the other sketches in the file and maybe they realized that this witness described similar clothing as those seen on BG and the video had not yet been released to the public.

That’s my leading theory anyway.

ETA: Never mind. Nix this theory—the still images were released a day before the sketch was drawn.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Whether you categorize LE as withholding too much information or blabbing too much, the main problem in my opinion is how confused and discombobulated most of the info is. So often they say something only to have to try and correct or clarify it a day later. The 2019 press conference, which they made sure everybody was watching, that supposedly was scripted, etc, was unbelievable in the amount of incorrect information that was given. LE spent the entire next day correcting dates, times, poorly worded descriptions. This is what they do when they’re prepared!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The FBI poster has consistently reported Eye Color as Unknown as well, even when the first sketch was featured.

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/liberty-german/download.pdf
“The person depicted in the composite sketch is described as a White male between 5'6" and 5'10", weighing 180 to 220 pounds, with reddish- brown hair. His eye color is unknown.”

Perhaps dilated pupils might have been the reason, that the eye color wasn't recognizable like it usual would have been? - We talked already about drugs and/or alcohol, BG might have consumed, ie. re his gait on MHB.

What Drugs Cause Dilated Pupils? | NVISION Eye Centers
Both prescription medications and intoxicating, recreational drugs can cause your pupils to dilate. If you take a prescription that might change how your eyes look or how sensitive to light they are because your pupils dilate as a side effect, your doctor will warn you. People who abuse drugs for nonmedical reasons may not expect their pupils to dilate, but it can be a sign that they are intoxicated.

 

[Charlot123]

As we've all pondered, I do think it's highly likely the Perp is somewhere in all those leads LE has. As we've also discussed, I think it's time to revisit those leads with some other experts, who might provide a different perspective. There are various groups who do this from a LE perspective, but I would love to see members from "think tank" groups or Universities involved as well. I think this would be a very interesting assembly.

As I think about these girls this morning and wonder what is being missed, I keep going back to Libby's phone. It is very notable that the Perp didn't take the phone or respond to it in some manner (maybe they threw it aside, who knows). However, largely, they seemed to ignore it. Despite Libby's cleverness, they would have seen it at some point IWT?

What does this mean? Sure, maybe they didn't see it and it got tossed aside or dropped during the attack. But what if they did see it and didn't see it as a concern? What does that tell us? Some speculations....

1. They were in a demented/altered state of killing and didn't notice or care?
2. They saw it but didn't think of it as a threat because no one was using it to speak during the attack? (They don't understand technology and how the other features would be a potential threat?)
3. He saw the phone and didn't care - it might have even added to the "thrill", similar to allegedly killing them within view/earshot of surrounding homes? (Allegedly)

Respectfully snipped by me.

I think that he knew enough about technology and so he did not take the phone with him. I think he checked the photos. He might have even deleted the video, but did not empty the deleted folder, and it stayed in the folder in the cloud?

I think there are many ways to manipulate with media, and even with time on the photo.

I would not be surprised that it is the time factor that everyone takes for granted that is off in this narrative. I don’t know in what way. MOO.