Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[SMK777]

100% agree with your take on this as a possible scenario.

Additionally, maybe if they giggled or he thought he'd try to teach them a lesson for being on the bridge by scaring them.. he may have said he was a park ranger and they needed to get off the bridge because it is off limits and quickly hustled them down the hill. Then for some reason (maybe he enjoyed how scared they looked and the power he had), it quickly escalated and maybe he panicked and got them across the creek.. "And now what???" - before he even knew it, he'd already committed a huge crime.

However, reading from the excellent transcribed podcasts yesterday, if he raped them, all bets are off on the angry white man theory and instead, this was his plan all along.

got my fingers still crossed for an arrest.

Great thoughts.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm pretty strong-willed and I'd like to think I'd put up a fight. If something ever happens to me my family may swear that I did. But I can tell you there's a very good chance I WOULD cross a freezing creek in February if there was a gun to my head or being held, God forbid, on my child or even a friend. I know the best strategy is to break off and try to run but in the moment, could I? Not sure, honestly. Hopefully I won't be in a situation to find out.

Yeah it’s really hard to know how anybody might react let alone two teens in a situation where we don’t know anything about the approach other than it involved four words “guys...down the hill”. Their reaction might differ depending on the level of danger the man on the bridge represented when he first approached them. I’d think it’s human nature for the girls to question...what do you want, who are you, or a couple of expletives that come to mind, etc rather than complying without speaking a word. Where it went from there... we know so little of the facts already known by LE although we do know there’s additional audio recorded by Libby that’s never been released.

 

[sunshineray]

<snipped and bolded>

The time frame has always been a part of the crime that I haven't always agreed with others on.

We know from numerous (public) LE interviews that investigators believe the girls were murdered shortly after the recording "Guys- down the hill". What we don't know is what time the recording took place. We can speculate, but there has never been confirmation- this is one of the things LE has kept to themselves. It may play a large role in the case.

Another fascinating fact is that DC has remarked that the murder took place where the girls were found. They were not removed from the crime scene and brought back. They lost their lives right where they were found.

I have no doubt whatsoever that BG was still present when DG arrived to pick the girls up. BG picked the location very carefully; which leads me to believe he was very familiar with the layout of the trails, the location of homes, and at least the bottom half of RL's property. He knew no one could see or hear the girls, or anything that might be occurring from the time of the abduction to the end of their lives.

Let's say for a moment I am correct about BG still being on-site at the time of Derrick's arrival. Let's say that additional family members did not begin arriving until closer to 4pm. We know that family members (and searchers) focused on the trails near the bridge, as well as the areas near the creek. IMO, BG knew searchers would focus closer to the drop-off (the Snap Chat photo with Libby on the bridge was not discovered until much later in the evening). BG also knew the location of the crime scene was isolated and difficult to get to. He probably knew searchers would need permission to search on private property. All of these things could potentially extend the timeframe by a couple of hours- leaving him plenty of time to complete his "task", spend time at the crime scene (after the murders), and escape the area. Because of the number of searchers present on the evening of the 13th, the early sunset, and the use of flashlights due to the darkness, I believe it is entirely possible BG may have blended right in without notice. I don't necessarily believe he participated in the search, but I believe he could have used the opportunity to disappear much, much later than any of us has imagined.

Isn't the topography mirrored on the other side of Deer Creek, the side the girls were found?

So BG's "Down the hill" command, according to LE saying it happened right after BG's approach to the girls, could only have happened right at the end of the bridge the girls were at, the area were there's no more trail.

That's the down the hill, where the girls were standing and waiting, according to Abby's Mom on the Renner 360 interview, because they couldn't go any father and passing someone out on the bridge is not something to be done.

They had to wait, BG came up to them, Libby started her phone and they were abducted "down the hill". AJMO

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Oh wow, interesting development! I've seen several u t videos and articles re. Mayor Evans during the time of the Delphi murders as a rep for the town, and that he had just gone through law school. So he will put that to good use now, good for him!

And on another note, lol, re. another Delphi matter we've discussed here: Update from the local paper Carroll County Comet: "Governor Eric J. Holcomb announced Monday Troy M. Hawkins as his appointment to the Carroll County Superior Court. Hawkins will succeed Judge Kurtis Fouts, who will retire at the end of this month. "

Lots of political changes taking place in Carroll County. A chain re-action if you will. Hope all of the change will be for the good!

I am a little curious with all of the recent (and upcoming) changes in the Delphi city government. Probably far-fetched on my part, but I can't help but wonder if these sudden changes are in any way related to the unsolved murder of Abby and Libby?

Your not wondering alone.

I know that personally, I tend analyze anything and everything when it comes to most (any?) news about Delphi and Carroll County and I instinctively tend to attempt to link it to Abby and Libby's case.

Just really feeling hopeful for a break in this case soon.
Justice is so long overdue.

JMO

 

[JDough]

Just a comment...I doubt the killer had any way of knowing where searchers would likely search because he can’t have known what plans the girls had told others about, including if they’d told anybody their only destination was to hang out on the bridge in advance.

He also wouldn’t have known if others had planned to meet up with the girls on the bridge later or who might’ve been walking behind by minutes, nor could he have known what time it was planned for them to be picked up.

If the killer had intended to spend any amount of time with the bodies after the murders occurred, considering how close their bodies were to the bridge, then I really do believe his plans got thwarted and it’s more likely his victims didn’t cooperate, instead they attempted to flee. Regardless of what signatures may have been noted, IMO the killer was gone almost immediately.

I appreciate all point of views. I was just posing an alternate theory. I can't remember (though I'm sure we did at some point) discussing the potential of BG remaining at the scene for a longer period of time. And what that might look like on paper!

I sincerely hope that no matter what happened on 02/13/2017, the perpetrator left just enough of that physical evidence discussed in the last DTH transcript to be caught. Soon.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Just a comment...I doubt the killer had any way of knowing where searchers would likely search because he can’t have known what plans the girls had told others about, including if they’d told anybody their only destination was to hang out on the bridge in advance.

He also wouldn’t have known if others had planned to meet up with the girls on the bridge later or who might’ve been walking behind by minutes, nor could he have known what time it was planned for them to be picked up.

If the killer had intended to spend any amount of time with the bodies after the murders occurred, considering how close their bodies were to the bridge, then I really do believe his plans got thwarted and it’s more likely his victims didn’t cooperate, instead they attempted to flee. Regardless of what signatures may have been noted, IMO the killer was gone almost immediately.

Quoted bbm.

These are such very important factors to consider when you think about this case in its entirety.

The timing on any one of these three unknown variables could have impacted or changed the outcome on how things went down that day (he could have been caught or scared off prior to executing the crime) and seemingly, he had no way in advance of knowing this.

It makes me think he felt he had nothing to lose by committing this crime.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Totally agree that the murders may not have gone according to the fantasy he had in mind. This is why crime scene behaviors, even for crimes in series by the same offender, can be quite varied though they revolve around the same psychological imprint. He can be rushed, he can be experimenting, he can be limited in victim selection. I sort of question your terminology "laying out signatures" because that implies they were objects and they were much more likely to be behaviors than items.

“Laying out signatures” was kinda poorly worded on my part. I was trying to refer to anything that might be taken as a signature including objects and behaviors or anything else. Don’t think I did that very well!

 

[Yemelyan]

“Laying out signatures” was kinda poorly worded on my part. I was trying to refer to anything that might be taken as a signature including objects and behaviors or anything else. Don’t think I did that very well!

I kinda figured you just groped for and picked the first word that came to mind! Hope my response didn't come off harsh, I was trying to agree with everything else you said.

 

[Kimmer]

Think about this the one thing all of us do when we are looking for someone is yell out their names, I imagine the father looking for the girls would have been calling out both of their names, therefore letting the killer know someone in the area was calling out two names, and that would have brought to his attention that someone was heading in his direction and therefore he knew he needed to hightail out of there.

 

[JDough]

The only problem I have with this is that if the girls did indeed flee across the creek(which I believe has been confirmed) then this was NOT in his plans (if there was a plan to begin with). All this might have been triggered by a giggle he thought was aimed at him. His hair trigger goes off and he is mad. Going across an ice cold creek would have been stupid. . When they ran across the creek then panic on his part sinks in and he has to get them so as not to have anyone Iding him. Narcissists and sociopaths are like this. JMO

I totally must have missed the confirmation about the girls fleeing across the creek. The only thing I remember being confirmed by LE is that none of the reenactments posed by YouTube channels are correct. I believe DC said "none of them are even close." This was on of the news channel interviews- which I can't find at the moment. (So consider this statement MHO). Do you have the article(s) handy? I may have missed something important. TIA

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I kinda figured you just groped for and picked the first word that came to mind! Hope my response didn't come off harsh, I was trying to agree with everything else you said.

No worries! You pretty much nailed my thought process! HaHa!

 

[stattlich1]

I totally must have missed the confirmation about the girls fleeing across the creek. The only thing I remember being confirmed by LE is that none of the reenactments posed by YouTube channels are correct. I believe DC said "none of them are even close." This was on of the news channel interviews- which I can't find at the moment. (So consider this statement MHO). Do you have the article(s) handy? I may have missed something important. TIA

If we assume the YouTube reenactments to be erroneous, then what scenarios do we ponder?

How about a waiting vehicle, under that bridge, at the bottom of the hill, forced in to it, driven to a location say, that cemetery, and forced to the final murder scene from there?

Far fetched eh?

Did they really cross that creek?

 

[somequestions]

Everyone has their own interpretation of the crime scene area. The fact that Abigail Williams and Liberty German were found across the creek suggested to me that this person may not have been familiar with the Monon High Bridge area. I think they just wanted a physical barrier between them and any potential eyewitnesses. This probably made searching for the girls a little more difficult as people would reason that the girls probably would not have crossed the creek water. As for the property owner, unfortunately somebody decided to murder two people on his property. I do not think he has any involvement in this crime.

I think the reason the girls stuck together was probably because one was being held at knifepoint or gunpoint. Unfortunately since we do not know how the girls died it is hard to say. If you assume that Libby's phone was still recording audio, police are probably aware of whether the girls tried to run or followed commands, etc.

Until the case is solved or more information is released, we can only guess. Hopefully the case gets solved someday.

 

[MistyWaters]

I totally must have missed the confirmation about the girls fleeing across the creek. The only thing I remember being confirmed by LE is that none of the reenactments posed by YouTube channels are correct. I believe DC said "none of them are even close." This was on of the news channel interviews- which I can't find at the moment. (So consider this statement MHO). Do you have the article(s) handy? I may have missed something important. TIA

This is probably what you remember. I’ve never watched any youtube re-enactments of armchair sleuths acting out the actual murder occurring, that’s pretty disgusting IMO. LE have released very few specific details, so neither have they confirmed nor denied any either other than the reference to the re-enactments. For that same reason nobody but the actual killer could create a true re-enactment of the murders.

The 2nd last sentence would make more sense if he was misquoted and actually said “People watch (as if it’s) the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false.” Because I don’t think he’s a saying “the news” is false considering much of it contains LE comments and interviews.

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana
“When asked why police have held back these details on such a high-profile case, Indiana State Police First Sgt. Jerry Holeman tells A&E Real Crime that it is standard protocol for his officers to keep mum on those issues during ongoing investigations.

“Speaking on behalf of state police, we don’t ever release information about ongoing investigations,” Holeman says. “In this case, we gave out audio and photo evidence from [German’s] video to help locate [the perpetrator]. We do that so when we get key evidence, only the killer or killers know the cause of death. We don’t release it to the media because then everyone and their brother would know, and it’s common to get false confessions from mentally disturbed people. So we’re trying to keep the details close to our vests.”

Rumors and Speculation Around the Delphi Murder Case
Of course, the lack of confirmed details about the circumstances of the girls’ murders has only fueled more obsessive speculation from crime-watchers on sites like Reddit, where users on at least one Delphi-dedicated board with 8,400 subscribers regularly share their theories, speculations and suspicions.

“There’s a lot of false information out there,” Holeman confirms. “Social media, although not new… does impede our investigation. Like when people put up side-by-side photos of innocent people—or, at least, people with no ties to the state of Indiana or Delphi—which creates false [information]. People believe it [though] because it’s on the internet.”

And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”....”

 

[TheVisual]

I totally must have missed the confirmation about the girls fleeing across the creek. The only thing I remember being confirmed by LE is that none of the reenactments posed by YouTube channels are correct. I believe DC said "none of them are even close." This was on of the news channel interviews- which I can't find at the moment. (So consider this statement MHO). Do you have the article(s) handy? I may have missed something important. TIA

I looked for the interview where Jerry Holmen(sp?) talks with Alexis McAdams. It originally was 20+ minutes long and Holmen spoke of them probably going across the creek. Where he spoke about this was after the 20 minute mark. All I found was Holmen with McAdams on a 2+ clip that I am pretty sure was the interview I am talking about. They have cut it all out.

 

[Nerissa]

LE is NEVER going to come out on record & say 'yeah, that YouTuber sure nailed the reenactment & details of this case!'

They will never divulge those details - that is kept under wraps for reasons...so even IF some youtube enactment utterly nailed what happened they would NOT admit that...

So, I take that very definitive statement of NOPE by LE with a grain of salt....

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

LE is NEVER going to come out on record & say 'yeah, that YouTuber sure nailed the reenactment & details of this case!'

They will never divulge those details - that is kept under wraps for reasons...so even IF some youtube enactment utterly nailed what happened they would NOT admit that...

So, I take that very definitive statement of NOPE by LE with a grain of salt....

JMO

Yes, great point.

I think the entire intention of Holeman’s comment is he wants people to quit sending in tips based on information they think is true only because they read or saw it via some social media platform. Those tips, if one can call them that, take valuable time away from investigators who are investigating the case. He wasn’t intending to give the public a “clue“ as to what occurred, or didn’t occur.

 

[Andreee]

LE is NEVER going to come out on record & say 'yeah, that YouTuber sure nailed the reenactment & details of this case!'

They will never divulge those details - that is kept under wraps for reasons...so even IF some youtube enactment utterly nailed what happened they would NOT admit that...

So, I take that very definitive statement of NOPE by LE with a grain of salt....

JMO

I do too. There have been so many different theories and so many different thoughts of what happened to those two girls, that there has to be some truth, at least partially or even generally about what occurred amongst all the speculation! There are only so many scenarios possible.

 

[JnRyan]

And if LE saw it in another CS, then, God knows, we’d see billboards as far as California. And the first “celebrities” popularizing the case would not be GH or AG, no, the case would immediately be on prime TV news, on Inet, then, in 2017, and not now. Not a small joke, a SK operating in Indiana or interstate, and leaving signatures.

Nothing like this happened.

I had to step back and think back on this aspect. Every day for years I drive in to the Norfolk Naval Base and there is a digital billboard up just as you turn off I-64 onto I-564. For those who haven't been in the Navy and stationed in Norfolk, I-564 is a spur off I-64 that leads primarily to Gates 1 & 2 of the base, the large medical clinic, large dental clinic and the commissary and Navy Exchange. Sure, you can make a left just before the gates and go down Hampton Blvd, but I'd say 90% or more are headed to the base or the ships. So the audience for the FBI putting up the Delphi Murders on the billboard to me would be to target sailors and marines who might recognize this guy. Those sailors and marines are from all over the country, including IN.

But then I think back and that is the ONLY non-Virginia case I can ever recall seeing on there. Some of the most highly publicized VA cases - Alexis Murphy, Morgan Harrington, Hannah Graham, Heidi Childs/David Metzler murders, for examples - were NEVER posted there. AJ Hadsell who disappeared from a home not far from the base was never featured there. Why then, did the FBI feel the need to post the case there? Don't get me wrong, every little bit of publicity helps. But what did the FBI see in this crime that convinced them to put up billboards in Norfolk and CA?

 

[Hobgoblinmarket]

Reenactments...of a murder...?!

YouTube truly has its downsides.