Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[MistyWaters]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed due to non approved source>

At about 4:40 in this video there’s a good glimpse of the private drive. <modsnip: Removed reference to removed video>

According to media reports, the bridge was closed shortly after the murders and repairs including railings are still in work in progress. It was still open to the public last November?
Fences going up at bridge near Delphi girls' slayings

$260K renovation underway to turn Delphi's Monon High Bridge into pedestrian trail

On a side note regarding a topic discussed within the last couple of days, Abby’s mom mentioned on the segment of the audio one of the girls mentioned “the trail ends here”. But on the video above just after 4:40 the old rail bed is visible and continues onward. While it obviously wasn’t part of the trail system, neither does the far end of the bridge lead to an abrupt dead end especially if the girls wanted to distance themselves away from it so I’m sort of curious about that comment.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Random youtube videos or blogs are not allowed unless prior approval is given by Tricia or Admin.

Posts have been removed due to discussing a youtube video which is not an approved source at Websleuths.

(FYI, a thread specific exception was made in another thread to allow 1 video from that particular source ONLY because it contained an interview with a major case player. There was no blanket approval given to use that source in any other thread, including this one.)

 

[I wonder]

[QUOTE

On a side note regarding a topic discussed within the last couple of days, Abby’s mom mentioned on the segment of the audio one of the girls mentioned “the trail ends here”. But on the video above just after 4:40 the old rail bed is visible and continues onward. While it obviously wasn’t part of the trail system, neither does the far end of the bridge lead to an abrupt dead end especially if the girls wanted to distance themselves away from it so I’m sort of curious about that comment.[/QUOTE]

I've never understand this either. I believe it's thought that Abby had never been on the bridge before, so didn't know what was beyond the end of the bridge at that end. But Libby had been on the bridge before, so may have known that the trail ended and became private property.

I don't know the exact context to the comment 'the trail ends here'. It's once Libby started recording, but was this was when they first saw BG at the other side of the bridge or as he seemed to be charging towards them?

If it was said in an anxious way, I don't understand why they didn't think the situation meant it was worth, even acceptable to trespass. Either they were rule keepers or perhaps Libby had gone beyond the trail end before and been challenged by the land owner and told off, possibly even threatened, albeit in a I'm out with my shotgun shooting birds and if you're here, I may shoot you accidentally.

It's also possible that they thought that beyond the trail was actually more remote and potentially dangerous. If they stayed on the trail, they're more likely that other hikers will see and hear them.

Or, by this point BG was really close and/or he had shown then, or hinted at having a weapon.

 

[SMK777]

I've never understand this either. I believe it's thought that Abby had never been on the bridge before, so didn't know what was beyond the end of the bridge at that end. But Libby had been on the bridge before, so may have known that the trail ended and became private property.

I don't know the exact context to the comment 'the trail ends here'. It's once Libby started recording, but was this was when they first saw BG at the other side of the bridge or as he seemed to be charging towards them?

If it was said in an anxious way, I don't understand why they didn't think the situation meant it was worth, even acceptable to trespass. Either they were rule keepers or perhaps Libby had gone beyond the trail end before and been challenged by the land owner and told off, possibly even threatened, albeit in a I'm out with my shotgun shooting birds and if you're here, I may shoot you accidentally.

It's also possible that they thought that beyond the trail was actually more remote and potentially dangerous. If they stayed on the trail, they're more likely that other hikers will see and hear them.

Or, by this point BG was really close and/or he had shown then, or hinted at having a weapon.

Excellent points. Sadly it may well have just boiled down to the fact that although his approach was making them uncomfortable, they had no idea that they were actually in mortal danger.

 

[MistyWaters]

I've never understand this either. I believe it's thought that Abby had never been on the bridge before, so didn't know what was beyond the end of the bridge at that end. But Libby had been on the bridge before, so may have known that the trail ended and became private property.

I don't know the exact context to the comment 'the trail ends here'. It's once Libby started recording, but was this was when they first saw BG at the other side of the bridge or as he seemed to be charging towards them?

If it was said in an anxious way, I don't understand why they didn't think the situation meant it was worth, even acceptable to trespass. Either they were rule keepers or perhaps Libby had gone beyond the trail end before and been challenged by the land owner and told off, possibly even threatened, albeit in a I'm out with my shotgun shooting birds and if you're here, I may shoot you accidentally.

It's also possible that they thought that beyond the trail was actually more remote and potentially dangerous. If they stayed on the trail, they're more likely that other hikers will see and hear them.

Or, by this point BG was really close and/or he had shown then, or hinted at having a weapon.

Given what LE say was released for family members to hear, it doesn’t appear the girls were panicked at that point. By this release the strong insinuation is made to the killer that Libby continued to record audio right through to the initial interaction including the four words LE did release, “guys..down the hill”. This is why I think there was nothing that gave an indication the girls recognized him nor expected to meet him. It’s absolutely heartbreaking, more than 3 years later, that audio didn’t yield enough clues for LE to identify the killer.

“State police say more audio from Libby German's cell phone was played for the victims' families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them.

Police say the girls mostly talk about "stuff girls talk about" in the recording, but they also mention the man.”
Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family | wthr.com

 

[sunshineray]

Given what LE say was released for family members to hear, it doesn’t appear the girls were panicked at that point. By this release the strong insinuation is made to the killer that Libby continued to record audio right through to the initial interaction including the four words LE did release, “guys..down the hill”. This is why I think there was nothing that gave an indication the girls recognized him nor expected to meet him. It’s absolutely heartbreaking, more than 3 years later, that audio didn’t yield enough clues for LE to identify the killer.

“State police say more audio from Libby German's cell phone was played for the victims' families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them.

Police say the girls mostly talk about "stuff girls talk about" in the recording, but they also mention the man.”
Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family | wthr.com

LE wants to keep the words said by the killer to the girls, after he said the initial "Guys" and before he said "Down the hill", out of the public's knowledge. Maybe it was an admonishment for crossing the bridge as in, I'm with the trail system or whatever and crossing the bridge is off limits, too dangerous, you can't cross back over it you need to go down the hill? Or it could have been violent intimidation and with a weapon.

Those words, inflections, accent could be what identifies him to a neighbor or co-worker but I understand why it's being withheld. LE may have to rethink releasing more, if they truly don't have a clue who the killer is. I guess if LE knows who the killer is there's really no reason to release anything more...which they haven't.

It's either totally in the dark still to who the killer is or knowing who the killer is but not having enough to convict him...yet. AJMO

 

[SMK777]

Given what LE say was released for family members to hear, it doesn’t appear the girls were panicked at that point.

Yes, I think it’s obvious that IF they’d known this man intended to murder them, they would have been running, even onto private property.

I'm with the trail system or whatever and crossing the bridge is off limits, too dangerous, you can't cross back over it you need to go down the hill?

This may be the very reason they’re not releasing it: Anyone confessing to the murders will need to say they’d posed as a park official, perhaps showing a fake badge.

 

[NavadaSmith]

DNA close to the bodies will seal the deal. When you show the Unsub's DNA is the same as DNA found on or next to one of the bodies a jury will be convinced. Game Set Match. This killer signed his murder and we just have to find him. He is not in CODIS, tells me he was never captured for any significant crime. Delphi could be his first major crime. Delphi PD getting closer every day. If I were the killer I would surrender.

 

[NavadaSmith]

Indiana last executions was 2009 from what I read. Something tells me a jury of his peers would be happy to execute BG.

 

[I wonder]

Yes, I think it’s obvious that IF they’d known this man intended to murder them, they would have been running, even onto private property.

I also think the question about whether they could go further on the trail related to quite simply that a man coming across the bridge and (presumably) Abby was clarifying their options. If there is no further trail, they would potentially face re-crossing the bridge with the man behind them., i.e, sharing the return leg and as it's very high, no-one wants that.

 

[TTF14]

DNA close to the bodies will seal the deal. When you show the Unsub's DNA is the same as DNA found on or next to one of the bodies a jury will be convinced. Game Set Match. This killer signed his murder and we just have to find him. He is not in CODIS, tells me he was never captured for any significant crime. Delphi could be his first major crime. Delphi PD getting closer every day. If I were the killer I would surrender.

Unless BG was one of the searchers or otherwise on the scene in the hours/days afterward so his DNA is "naturally" there and it will never be able to be proven just when it was deposited there....

 

[I wonder]

The more I think about this, the more I think that BG had crossed the bridge before and that day. He knew they were very near houses at that end, so he went straight in with his command 'Down the Hill' to get them away from possible detection asap. There are several 'down the hill' options, with an initial choice of going in different directions. One route is pretty direct, other possible routes less so. All are steep, so a trial run at it would be good for his confidence.

If he did plan a crime in any way, it would make sense to check the routes prior to the crime itself, that day or another day, unless as a local he knew the options already.

Either way, he had to have crossed the bridge before. If this was his first ever visit, to check that end of the bridge and potentially locate a private place to kill, he had to cross the bridge to do so. He then came at the girls from the other end, so in fact he may have crossed the bridge both ways earlier that day, maybe only an hour or so before.

If this is the case, it's no wonder he charged across the bridge, hands in pockets. He'd already done it.

 

[JnRyan]

I believe there is a possibility that this killer has killed before and/or since. I have speculated before that LE might have a very difficult time trying to connect to another case if his other victims are missing and their fate is unknown. So I went to the Charley Project and used the Advanced Search for missing white females from IN, IL, KY and OH. There are 54 in IN, 68 in IL, 73 in KY and 133 in OH. That's over 300 and these are just the white females that have been reported to the Charley Project. Now to be sure when opening a few there are some that are just way too old and many are outside the age range I would expect this killer would go after. (One of the IN cases dates back to 1945.) But still these are, (1) only the cases reported to the Charley Project, (2) doesn't include Asian, Pacific Islander, Black or Hispanic, and (3) the possibility of a runaway from still another state who might have been murdered in IN.

With a missing person who might have been murdered LE doesn't have DNA or a body. Therefore no cause or manner of death. He might have even left the same signatures at those scenes but they just have not been found. He could even have changed his method slightly since then and even changed his victim type - i.e., an older, petite female for example. Instead of a park or trail, he could have picked up a runaway at a truck stop, for example. In fact, if he is a serial killer his murders of Abigail and Liberty may be a deviation from his usual place to select a victim. IOW, it is possible this killer doesn't frequent trails, but he went to that trail because he was familiar with it from sometime in his past.

 

[Charlot123]

I believe there is a possibility that this killer has killed before and/or since. I have speculated before that LE might have a very difficult time trying to connect to another case if his other victims are missing and their fate is unknown. So I went to the Charley Project and used the Advanced Search for missing white females from IN, IL, KY and OH. There are 54 in IN, 68 in IL, 73 in KY and 133 in OH. That's over 300 and these are just the white females that have been reported to the Charley Project. Now to be sure when opening a few there are some that are just way too old and many are outside the age range I would expect this killer would go after. (One of the IN cases dates back to 1945.) But still these are, (1) only the cases reported to the Charley Project, (2) doesn't include Asian, Pacific Islander, Black or Hispanic, and (3) the possibility of a runaway from still another state who might have been murdered in IN.

With a missing person who might have been murdered LE doesn't have DNA or a body. Therefore no cause or manner of death. He might have even left the same signatures at those scenes but they just have not been found. He could even have changed his method slightly since then and even changed his victim type - i.e., an older, petite female for example. Instead of a park or trail, he could have picked up a runaway at a truck stop, for example. In fact, if he is a serial killer his murders of Abigail and Liberty may be a deviation from his usual place to select a victim. IOW, it is possible this killer doesn't frequent trails, but he went to that trail because he was familiar with it from sometime in his past.

All I see is that he can plan a killing. And
since I believe he planned something to look like a serial killing, let us start with him being a good planner.

On the bridge photo he looks like an incel, but probably, is not, IRL.

He either has some episodes of “high energy” or is on medications that keep him in high energy (such as antidepressants; meth could do the same).

He is pretty social and can come across as very pleasant, if needed. He probably had a social job requiring high organizational skills, or holds such a job.

His anger and the dark side of the moon are known only to a few, but they are concerned about him.

I don’t know how and where he killed, but I think to pull it all, one has to move fast. Hence, I think he at least periodically has high energy.

It would be interesting to know if he is “a morning person”, or “a night one”. I bet one could sort it out. It is not a definitive factor, but an interesting one.

 

[I wonder]

He either has some episodes of “high energy” or is on medications that keep him in high energy (such as antidepressants; meth could do the same).

Snipped.

I suspect the adrenaline resulting from planning and carrying out his sickening urges explains his 'high energy'.

I have a mental illness and in my experience, antidepressants don't keep anyone 'in high energy', in fact they do the precise opposite. Their virtually universally acknowledged sedative affect is deemed useful in preventing people having the energy to take their own lives.

The vast majority of crimes aren't carried out by people with a mental illness. We tend to have rather a lot to cope with and little time or energy to go on killing sprees.

 

[TTF14]

Their virtually universally acknowledged sedative affect is deemed useful in preventing people having the energy to take their own lives.

Interesting. Ya learn something new every day.

 

[Hobgoblinmarket]

DNA close to the bodies will seal the deal. When you show the Unsub's DNA is the same as DNA found on or next to one of the bodies a jury will be convinced. Game Set Match. This killer signed his murder and we just have to find him. He is not in CODIS, tells me he was never captured for any significant crime. Delphi could be his first major crime. Delphi PD getting closer every day. If I were the killer I would surrender.

They might not have much DNA, or enough of it.

 

[NavadaSmith]

They might not have much DNA, or enough of it.

We can toss that around all day, suffice it to say there are all kinds of crime scene evidence from DNA to Diatoms, fiber, prints etc. I'm putting my money on there is also major evidence BG guy left behind and doesn't even realize it. There was a murder case where the killer wore gloves and drove the victims car to get away and dumped the car later. The killer accidently touched his own skin with his gloved hand and left a small trace sample of his own perspiration on the dash board. That's all that was need to I.D. him once they caught him.

 

[SMK777]

We can toss that around all day, suffice it to say there are all kinds of crime scene evidence from DNA to Diatoms, fiber, prints etc. I'm putting my money on there is also major evidence BG guy left behind and doesn't even realize it. There was a murder case where the killer wore gloves and drove the victims car to get away and dumped the car later. The killer accidently touched his own skin with his gloved hand and left a small trace sample of his own perspiration on the dash board. That's all that was need to I.D. him once they caught him.

Here’s hoping that similar happened in this case.

 

[Charlot123]

Snipped.

I suspect the adrenaline resulting from planning and carrying out his sickening urges explains his 'high energy'.

I have a mental illness and in my experience, antidepressants don't keep anyone 'in high energy', in fact they do the precise opposite. Their virtually universally acknowledged sedative affect is deemed useful in preventing people having the energy to take their own lives.

The vast majority of crimes aren't carried out by people with a mental illness. We tend to have rather a lot to cope with and little time or energy to go on killing sprees.

Well, given the lifelong prevalence of simple depression (25%) and point prevalence of it 10-13%), there is no definitive line between “mental illness - no mental illness”. Rather, “some people are asking for help, others, don’t”. Strictly my opinion.

But in this case, I was thinking less about diagnosis and more, about the type of the person one would see. In my opinion, a very fast, very social, pleasant, planner. I think he comes across as such most of the time. If there is a group of office workers, he’d be the fastest and the nicest one. If these are hunters, he’d be the most gregarious, and tell jokes during lunch.

(Same about antidepressants- they affect people in such different ways... but I said, it could be simple meth, too).

In fact, I think one of the reasons he is not caught is because of “OMG, not him! He lended me money, he helped Bill’s son, he is the best friend” factor.