Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[Silver_produce0]

UnderWhelmed, I haven’t seen that discussed before but it’s definitely a good question.

 

[Cryptic]

What information would make a teenager that dangerous for an adult, I don’t know.

I can think of several: Knowledge of criminal activity such as drugs or a sex crime, knowledge of say, an illicit sexual affair, knowledge of a more minor crime, but one that would be very shameful to the perpetrator- say, theft from a trusted relative or from an employer.

As to how a teenager would obtain that knowledge, I dont know. I imagine, however, that there are ways.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I can think of several: Knowledge of criminal activity such as drugs or a sex crime, knowledge of say, an illicit sexual affair, knowledge of a more minor crime, but one that would be very shameful to the perpetrator- say, theft from a trusted relative or from an employer.

As to how a teenager would obtain that knowledge, I dont know. I imagine, however, that there are ways.

Interesting theory. Anything is possible.
I still believe the motive is sexual assault.
Regardless, let’s hope there is a material advancement soon!

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MistyWaters]

I can think of several: Knowledge of criminal activity such as drugs or a sex crime, knowledge of say, an illicit sexual affair, knowledge of a more minor crime, but one that would be very shameful to the perpetrator- say, theft from a trusted relative or from an employer.

As to how a teenager would obtain that knowledge, I dont know. I imagine, however, that there are ways.

The reason I’ve thought the to-shut-them-up motive is highly unlikely is because the killer would have no way of knowing if either of the two girls had already shared incriminating information with other people. And it’s certainly preposterous to even consider the two grade 8 students intended to blackmail the perpetrator so they’d have no reason to keep highly incriminating information secret from either their families or police. Any suspect with an obvious motive would’ve solved this case long ago IMO.

Or maybe they observed something illicit or illegal happening immediately preceding their deaths? But given the trail was open to the public I think it’d be the least likely location for anybody to be involved in something so serious that’d it’d also require murdering witnesses over. Any number of people could be passing by at any time, I just can’t see it but that’s just my opinion.

 

[BNA]

I don't think anyone thinks that IF there was a pre-arranged meeting it would be with someone (assuming they even had a photo) who looked like the overweight, scruffy clothed, scary eyed (according to a witness), lollaping man known as BG. This is what I see coming across the bridge, it's likely they did too.

However, the younger man's image is fairly attractive and he could easily pass for a teenager. But, ultimately, those with evil intentions lie every step of the way. Nothing would have been true, not the photo, not his age, not his interests (if shared) and it goes without saying, not his intentions.

IF the girls (or one of them) had arranged to meet someone, they may never have known that their killer was the same person. But I think they'd guessed, it's as good a reason as any for why Libby started recording him closing in on them. No witness has come forward to say they saw the girls, which suggests it likely that they hadn't seen them either. If they were expecting someone, the realisation that this man hurtling towards them on the bridge was that person would have been devastating.

This could explain the "change in strategy" comment from DC, as well as the "combination of the two" comments made later.

If LE suspects that there was catfishing involved, they may have switched to the younger looking sketch.....which may reflect the image that the vics saw in the catfishing photo they received. IOW, hoping that some potential tipster would make the connection.....even somebody who had similarly been catfished by the guy at some point over the years.

 

[sunshineray]

The transcript from the podcast with Mary Ellen O’Toole included some opinions on this. The question was something caused Libby to record but we are uncertain what it was. If you can disprove, or just feel there is no evidence to support, these other potential reasons as to why she’d film:

- he was overdressed and appeared to be concealing something under his jacket

- it was unusual for someone to walk all the way across the bridge when there were already people there (etiquette?)

- gut feeling / spidey senses.

Then this theory really does take a step Up the list for me... especially if you consider one of the girls having a Kik account which I believe is a fact but please correct me if not. And I believe those accounts are difficult to access or track.

I think he was talking to himself, possibly very loudly. I think she started taping him to show her grandpa or grandma the weird guy on the trials...he scared us. I don't think, from Libby's comment about the trail ending, that she thought they were in immediate danger from him. Though Abby's radar seemed to be telling her to put distance between them.

All that surmised by me from what Anna Williams said the girl's said on the audio LE let her listen to and in looking at the BG video. I see his mouth moving when you zoom all the way in on the ISP site.

 

[Cryptic]

The reason I’ve thought the to-shut-them-up motive is highly unlikely is because the killer would have no way of knowing if either of the two girls had already shared incriminating information with other people.

I think you are giving way too much credit to a certain number of perpetrators.

Fundamentally, I agree with you 100%- a "shut her / them up" motive would make little sense for as you say, the killer would not know if they already talked.

But... violent criminals have demonstrated time and time again that the crimes they perpetrate do not need to "make sense", nor do the violent crimes they commit need to be proportional to the actual threat, be well thought out. Nor do the victims need to be well chosen.

One recent example among many are they murders of Doctor Potter and her husband in Madison, WI. Two perpetrators commit a senseless double murder while leaving a trail of obvious clues that lead to their arrest with in days. One of the perpetrators had lived in the residence and objectively knew that the victims lived modestly and in all probability, did not have the bling wealth they sought.

In short, while mafia dons may do comprehensive risk / benefit analysis and carefully weigh proportionality as well as victim selection, many other criminals just don't.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think you are giving way too much credit to a certain number of perpetrators.

Fundamentally, I agree with you 100%- a "shut her / them up" motive would make little sense for as you say, the killer would not know if they already talked.

But... violent criminals have demonstrated time and time again that the crimes they perpetrate do not need to "make sense", nor do the violent crimes they commit need to be proportional to the actual threat, be well thought out. Nor do the victims need to be well chosen.

One recent example among many are they murders of Doctor Potter and her husband in Madison, WI. Two perpetrators commit a senseless double murder while leaving a trail of obvious clues that lead to their arrest with in days. One of the perpetrators had lived in the residence and objectively knew that the victims lived modestly and in all probability, did not have the bling wealth they sought.

In short, while mafia dons may do comprehensive risk / benefit analysis and carefully weigh proportionality as well as victim selection, many other criminals just don't.

If I’m correct, you’re suggesting the killer might’ve incorrectly believed either of the two might’ve known potentially incriminating information?

I suppose that’s possible although it would seem the chance of being convicted of 2 x 1st degree murder of two teens would pose far greater risk than any illicit or illegal activity, much like amputating both legs to heal a broken toe.

However I’m not disputing your theory, speculating is all we can do here until more facts are eventually made public after an arrest is made. Something I do believe, there’s critical information pertaining to the killer’s motive on the audio recorded by Libby which LE has intentionally kept under wraps. JMO

 

[JnRyan]

If they intended to meet someone, I am fairly certain it wouldn’t have been someone who looked like BG. So I don’t think they would have asked his name, they would most likely looking for a teenage boy. My speculation only.

I'm not going to discard the scenario that Abigail and Liberty were there to meet a guy. But this lack of a name, if only an internet or social media screen name, on the recording has me thinking a prearranged meeting was not part of it. I lean more toward Abigail and Liberty being in the wrong place at the wrong time. In the crosshairs of a killer who was looking for a victim or victims that met his prey criteria and he didn't care about their names or family. That's just my most likely theory anyway.

 

[JDough]

Another problem with DNA is that many times it is considered circumstantial evidence. Especially touch DNA. For example, if touch DNA is found on one of the girls it is possible to come from someone who had no contact with either girl. If a woman from out of town bumps one of the girls by accident and touch DNA from a son, boyfriend or husband transfers from her clothing to one of the girls it is possible to be found at the scene even though this person was never in contact with the girls.

I would have thought that blood and/or semen would be solid, but again it depends on the circumstances and where it was found. A case that took a turn for worse recently was the unsolved 2004 Brittany Phillips case in Tulsa. LE had a semen sample from Brittany's bed and LE believed this was the killer since Brittany was raped. Then got a lab to generate a description from the DNA from the sample and now they have a description of the 'killer'. Then the case hits a major snag. They ID the person in 2019 and he wasn't in the area of Brittany's place at the time. His girlfriend was house sitting and they had sex while on Brittany's bed days or weeks before the murder when Brittany was out of town. He is alibied out and 15 years later LE and Brittany's mother learn that the DNA they thought was the best lead is a dead end.

DNA In Tulsa Teen's Murder Case Does Not Belong To Killer

LE, especially ISP 1st Sgt Holeman, have in the past been very coy about DNA. I tend to believe they have DNA. However, I believe they have partial DNA and/or multiple unidentified DNA samples and LE cannot narrow which DNA belongs to the killer. If they even have the killer's DNA in the samples. And even female DNA probably can't be ignored. What if the killer used gloves, for example, and his DNA might not be on the victim, but touch DNA from the killer's mother, sister, girl friend, wife or even a female co-worker was on the gloves and transferred over. Yeah, DNA is great, but I just don't believe it is the magic bullet.

Sorry for the late reply- catching up!

I have often wondered if the DNA found at the crime scene belongs to someone that can "explain away" the reason it is there. Perhaps a searcher, friend of Kelsi's who may have hugged her (sweatshirts), transfer DNA from someone known to the girls, etc. If this person has a solid reason for their DNA being on either one or both of the girls, this could explain why there has not been an arrest.

We have heard LE state (on more than one occasion) "someone knows who this is", for whatever reason this person is afraid to come forward", or "we are one piece away from solving this puzzle". Perhaps if someone truly knows and they are apprehensive about coming forward, they could be justifying the reason their friend's/brother's/son's/husband's, etc. DNA was found on or around the girls.

 

[retrometro]

Sorry for the late reply- catching up!
We have heard LE state (on more than one occasion) "someone knows who this is", for whatever reason this persn is afraid to come forward", or "we are one piece away from solving this puzzle". Perhaps if someone truly knows and they are apprehensive about coming forward, they could be justifying the reason their friend's/brother's/son's/husband's, etc. DNA was found on or around the girls.

That's an interesting theory, JDough. I don't have any specific theories myself in this cae, but I do get the definite sense from Law Enforcement statements that they believe the killer is listening and watching. The "we believe you are hiding in plain sight" / "you made mistakes" press conference in April 2019 was especially striking. It felt like they were trying to deliberately provoke/unnerve him.

 

[SMK777]

If they were expecting someone, the realisation that this man hurtling towards them on the bridge was that person would have been devastating.

Yes, IF that occurred, it would had to have been terrifying.

it would seem the chance of being convicted of 2 x 1st degree murder of two teens would pose far greater risk than any illicit or illegal activity, much like amputating both legs to heal a broken toe.

True, and yet he hasn’t been caught and we’re not that far away now from the 4 year mark. Hypothetically, if silencing them was the motive, it worked. Again, simply theorizing, but people do in fact murder people to silence them.

 

[Cryptic]

I suppose that’s possible although it would seem the chance of being convicted of 2 x 1st degree murder of two teens would pose far greater risk than any illicit or illegal activity, much like amputating both legs to heal a broken toe.

A certain number of violent criminals, however, are very willing to "amputate their own legs" to "heal a broken toe". Heck, some will amputate to heal a stubbed toe.

At the end of the day, your objections make perfect sense. A certain number of criminals, however, are willing to commit horrendously violent crimes using a thought process that does not make a lot of sense.

Likewise, a certain number of violent criminals don't make good risk / reward analysis, don't weigh proportionality when considering violence, and don't practice carefully thought out retaliatory victim selection.

Instead a certain number of violent criminals act with out regard to risk verse reward, commit violent acts way out of proportion to the real or perceived wrong, and attack victims only distantly linked to what ever issue angered them.

Due to the above, I would not be so quick to rule out a "shut them/her up" motive- even if it does not make sense risk / reward wise.

 

[Cryptic]

I suppose that’s possible although it would seem the chance of being convicted of 2 x 1st degree murder of two teens would pose far greater risk than any illicit or illegal activity, much like amputating both legs to heal a broken toe.

A certain number of violent criminals, however, are very willing to "amputate their own legs" to "heal a broken toe". Heck, some will amputate to heal a stubbed toe.

Your objections to the likelihood of a "Shut her / them up" motive make perfect sense. A certain number of violent criminals, however, do things that don't make sense.

They just don't make good risk / reward analysis, don't weigh proportionality when considering violence, and don't practice carefully thought out retaliatory victim selection.

Instead they act with out regard to risk verse reward, commit violent acts way out of proportion to the real or perceived wrong, and attack victims only distantly linked to what ever issue angered them.

Again, I fully understand that you and I (in the hypothetical sense of course), would never consider committing the crime for a "shut them up" motive due a long list of valid reasons. But.... some violent criminals are a just, well, different for a variety of reasons (drug fogged, not very bright, aggressive personality clouds thinking, arrogance- cant be caught etc. )

 

[Sincerely]

I just can’t imagine this evil who took the girls, in broad daylight in a somewhat public place, has not made an attempt since that day. I know it has happened but it just doesn’t seem likely. I’ve been searching surrounding areas and haven’t found anything similar. If he’s in jail, I would think his DNA would be collected. I just don’t get it. Where is this evil that is walking among us?

 

[rosesfromangels]

I just can’t imagine this evil who took the girls, in broad daylight in a somewhat public place, has not made an attempt since that day. I know it has happened but it just doesn’t seem likely. I’ve been searching surrounding areas and haven’t found anything similar. If he’s in jail, I would think his DNA would be collected. I just don’t get it. Where is this evil that is walking among us?

BBM - that we know of. He could have other victims he has disposed of that no one knows about; people not in mainstream society that wouldn't be missed.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[sunshineray]

That's an interesting theory, JDough. I don't have any specific theories myself in this cae, but I do get the definite sense from Law Enforcement statements that they believe the killer is listening and watching. The "we believe you are hiding in plain sight" / "you made mistakes" press conference in April 2019 was especially striking. It felt like they were trying to deliberately provoke/unnerve him.

I honestly think, it's my strong feeling, that the killer was in that PC room on April 22, 2019.

I've never seen body language and micro expressions or felt the in-the-moment emotions coming off a LE spokesperson before like they were that day. It was not just ISP Carter having a bad day dealing. He was, IMO, as close to rage as he could be without exploding.

The inclusion of the or is viewing this press conference from somewhere else...that part felt like a balance to hide the truth of it...who we think is the killer, is in this room. AJMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I honestly think, it's my strong feeling, that the killer was in that PC room on April 22, 2019.

I've never seen body language and micro expressions or felt the in-the-moment emotions coming off a LE spokesperson before like they were that day. It was not just ISP Carter having a bad day dealing. He was, IMO, as close to rage as he could be without exploding.

The inclusion of the or is viewing this press conference from somewhere else...that part felt like a balance to hide the truth of it...who we think is the killer, is in this room. AJMO

I pretty much felt this same way at the time of the press conference. But now, way over a year later, it just seems like a lot of “storm and fury, signifying nothing”(to quote Shakespeare). Whatever LE thought was going to be accomplished by that press conference faded a long time ago. I think that presser’s relevance to what is going on right now, today, in this case, is pretty much at zero.

 

[Yemelyan]

I just can’t imagine this evil who took the girls, in broad daylight in a somewhat public place, has not made an attempt since that day. I know it has happened but it just doesn’t seem likely. I’ve been searching surrounding areas and haven’t found anything similar. If he’s in jail, I would think his DNA would be collected. I just don’t get it. Where is this evil that is walking among us?

It's a myth that murderers always escalate in their next crime or even that they continue with the exact same MO. So BG could be committing offenses that are under the radar.

I was recently reading about the serial killer Joseph Kondro from Washington State. He was convicted of killing an 8 year old child in 1985 and a 12 year old child in 1996. He was strongly suspected of another child murder in 1982 that they couldn't tie to him. LE looked up and down at cold cases and disappearances between 1985 and 1996 and couldn't find another case that could be linked to him, though not through lack of trying. In prison he admitted that he did commit other molestation crimes during that interval that satisfied the urge that the murders had given him. He lucked out in that the parents of his victims, when they became aware of what he was doing, opted not to report his molestation crimes. IMO the more research that is done into murderers, especially serial murderers, the more we will find that there are more like Kondro, with extensive latent periods.

What does this mean for BG? It means that 3 years is ultimately not that long and he could be committing other crimes that have not yet been discovered or reported.

 

[somequestions]

I pretty much felt this same way at the time of the press conference. But now, way over a year later, it just seems like a lot of “storm and fury, signifying nothing”(to quote Shakespeare). Whatever LE thought was going to be accomplished by that press conference faded a long time ago. I think that presser’s relevance to what is going on right now, today, in this case, is pretty much at zero.

So is the case not solved because LE is on the right track with the sketches and profile of the killer and they just have not been able to find him? It is only a matter of time.

Or is the case not solved because the sketches and profile of the killer are wrong and even if the person in the second sketch is found, it will not end up being the killer. Time ends up forgetting this case as everyone continues to look for the wrong person.

I think it is the latter. I think eventually what will happen after enough time passes is that LE will shift their investigation back to trying to find the individual through Liberty German's video description and discard the second sketch like they did the first. In the meantime I think they will continue to keep waiting to get the right tip.