Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[MistyWaters]

You make great points, a previous case I was sleuthing doubted a dog was involved, but it indeed turned out to have been the lure. You are absolutely correct, we are sleuthing here. I value your input! To tell you the truth, before I came up with my current POI, my research led me to two subjects that had small black and white dogs that were very prominent (even one of which was carried around and would fit the ideas of puppy inside the jacket). Thanks for sharing your observations. That recent WS interview provided that new information about the puppy LG sat on the floor playing with on Feb 13, 2017, which makes it worthy of re-visiting, IMO.

Your words, BBM.

I notice every word that’s spoken by either LE or the family tends to get revisited. I don’t want to sound snarky but if LE or the family know who the murderer is, they certainly wouldn’t be dropping important clues to the general public.

 

[rosesfromangels]

One thing for certain. BG is a dirtbag and a coward. He is also a LOSER. of course he doesn't care what we say, he's having too much fun to care. He should know that his day of true humiliation will come. The kind of humiliation feared by narcissists . Loss of control. Loss of control over his own life will come and possibly in Indiana his life could be ended in a court of law. He has always known this , but takes the risk because of course he thinks he's going to get away with his murders and that he is a mastermind.

I don't think he has any anxiety or feelings however when it comes to himself he will cry like a little baby.

that day is coming. it is...just be patient. mOO

I have no doubt you are right Minazoe on all accounts.
I'm wondering what if anything can be done to help expedite this outcome.
I"m thinking another high caliber data scientist is needed to help analyze all the crime data and identify patterns. We know the current crew has that capability, but likely not enough bandwidth. I would love to see LE call for volunteers from top institutions to crowdsource and see if we can accelerate.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[JnRyan]

Good points. My thoughts are a bit different. I think the killer is known, but not the name of the person we've come to call 'BG' who fits the description, for the most part, of what WE see as depicted on the bridge. I don't think we are seeing a full or fully accurate picture. I do also think the killer was on the bridge. The reason I think they have not made an arrest is because, as long as 'BG' remains a nameless 'boogie-man', reasonable doubt can be entertained in a defense of the known killer, making a conviction very difficult or unlikely. I think a tie between the killer and 'BG' is not apparent enough to determine who he is (not a close associate). That is why I think they are happy to get tips about anyone who was dressed that way, because that might simply be how he is identified, without any other apparent connection. The reasons I think he has not been identified: he doesn't stand out, his close associates and family think he wouldn't be involve and have not sent in a tip; he hasn't come forward because he has a distrust of the legal system and thinks he'll be framed for more than his actual role or he's no longer alive. These are just my personal observations and opinions. I have no way of knowing.

BBM part - I don't know if you mean the killer or a family member/friend who could ID the killer. But that brings up a thought that had not occurred to me before - what if there aren't any crimes similar since then because the killer himself is dead. Suicide, car accident or even Covid-19 are possibilities. When LE found out that the murderer of Genevieve Zitricki in SC (1990), rapist of 14 yo girl in Memphis (1997) and the murderer of Sherri and Megan Scherer in Portageville MO (1998) were the same person based on the DNA a lot of us wondered why the murderer was not tied to any other crimes since 1998. When GEDmatch made the identification in 2018, it was discovered that the person, Robert Brashears, committed suicide in 1999 when he was stopped by LE for driving with stolen tags on his vehicle. If this killer here committed suicide I wonder if LE or the medical examiner would obtain a DNA sample. They most likely wouldn't with a car accident or a Covid-19 death.

 

[wary]

about the puppy

I only brought it up because the girls were playing with a NEW puppy the day before. When someone has a NEW puppy, it usually means there are other puppies available because they come in litters.

also we have discussed this before.

this and that myself and maybe some others here feel as though the girls seemingly were waiting there at the end of that bridge, maybe waiting for someone they were meeting there.

no, he probably did not ever have a puppy, obviously, but as a possible lure, it has happened before and will again.

we are sleuthing are we not? it's just an idea and Im sure the police already looked at the puppy connection
because they know killers and predators, they know how pedo's operate and they know this scenario.

mOO

I’d thought that the puppy/kitten lure was used on young children. Maybe I’m wrong—I haven’t studied it.

 

[wary]

You make great points, a previous case I was sleuthing doubted a dog was involved, but it indeed turned out to have been the lure. You are absolutely correct, we are sleuthing here. I value your input! To tell you the truth, before I came up with my current POI, my research led me to two subjects that had small black and white dogs that were very prominent (even one of which was carried around and would fit the ideas of puppy inside the jacket). Thanks for sharing your observations. That recent WS interview provided that new information about the puppy LG sat on the floor playing with on Feb 13, 2017, which makes it worthy of re-visiting, IMO.

In the case that you mention, how old was the victim?

 

[girlfriday]

Your words, BBM.

I notice every word that’s spoken by either LE or the family tends to get revisited. I don’t want to sound snarky but if LE or the family know who the murderer is, they certainly wouldn’t be dropping important clues to the general public.

True. No snark detected nor directed. I’m may be very alone with my opinion(s). I am OK with being wrong. I tend to disagree with the notion that LE has made this confusing. I wholeheartedly believe that they are in a tough set of predicaments. I think this will be a precedent setting case, when it goes to trial. I can’t go long into why I think that, because I don’t want to violate the terms of this board. In my scenario, all is being done that can be done and the confusion will be cleared up with the information that is being withheld. I think that the multi-force effort has a strategic plan in their communications. No one is perfect, though, especially not the messenger. There are some very obvious examples of that. MOO

Edit: typo

 

[JnRyan]

One thing for certain. BG is a dirtbag and a coward. He is also a LOSER. of course he doesn't care what we say, he's having too much fun to care. He should know that his day of true humiliation will come. The kind of humiliation feared by narcissists . Loss of control. Loss of control over his own life will come and possibly in Indiana his life could be ended in a court of law. He has always known this , but takes the risk because of course he thinks he's going to get away with his murders and that he is a mastermind.

I don't think he has any anxiety or feelings however when it comes to himself he will cry like a little baby.

that day is coming. it is...just be patient. mOO

I sometimes wonder if this loser and coward comes on here as a guest and reads our posts. I certainly hope he read this post. To the coward, if you're out there reading this, when your day comes - and it is coming - you'll be sitting in your jail cell whimpering and wetting yourself.

 

[girlfriday]

In the case that you mention, how old was the victim?

Thank you for asking. The victim was a street smart 8 year old. The comparison was not apples to apples. The victim’s dog had been taken from their backyard, just before the abduction. The point bringing together that with this, is the reluctance of most everyone, in that case, to consider a/the dog relevant. People on this case have gotten some strong opposition when suggesting BG has a dog in his coat. In the other case, pushback was at the mere suggestion of a dog being used to lure, but for which was, in fact, the case. The perp carried a dog (hidden in a sling, that most thought to be a yoga mat) and the dog facilitated the abduction (the victim’s guard was down, because of a love of dog/breed conversation).

I don’t see a problem with ‘dog in coat’ being offered up here, while sleuthing. I actually do see why some think that. I see what could be a face as well as the limbs of a small animal pressing on the coat, but I’m going with that being due to the image being muddled, so it’s not a theory I get behind. MOO

 

[minazoe]

somehow the inference that a 13 year old girl is too old to be lured by a puppy is bothersome to me..granted the girls are not very young children they are still children and the person who attacked them may have a preference for children of a certain age, which can definitely include 13 year old girls. A 13 year old girls is a child. not even a young woman, just a young barely teen.

there are many tricks and slight of hand moves in the killer's tool bag. deception is a favorite. Imagine the the pleasure a sadist will have when it is discovered by their victim that they were lured, deceived and trapped.

Imagine when Ted Bundy's victim realizes his sling / cast are fake. or when the car a victim is riding in takes a wrong turn and they are not going where they thought they were going.

I feel like nothing is too ridiculous to consider because I have read so many outrageous accounts of how children and women are victimized by killers who appeal to their empathy and goodness.

mOO

 

[Kimmer]

I agree with everything you said, except the hair looks reddish-brown to me rather than light brown.

His posture doesn't look like the posture of a young man, but if he was carrying a bulky kill kit under his jacket, that would explain his posture.

That posture is also something that has caught my eye. Our family has a medical condition Scoliosis that can cause one shoulder to drop and the leg on that side to be a bit longer and also contributes to posture issues, my daughters was so bad that when she was 13 she looked visibly different, once she had her back surgery it was not nearly as easy to see. So there are medical conditions that could case posture as well as gait issues regardless of age.

 

[wary]

somehow the inference that a 13 year old girl is too old to be lured by a puppy is bothersome to me..granted the girls are not very young children they are still children and the person who attacked them may have a preference for children of a certain age, which can definitely include 13 year old girls. A 13 year old girls is a child. not even a young woman, just a young barely teen.

there are many tricks and slight of hand moves in the killer's tool bag. deception is a favorite. Imagine the the pleasure a sadist will have when it is discovered by their victim that they were lured, deceived and trapped.

Imagine when Ted Bundy's victim realizes his sling / cast are fake. or when the car a victim is riding in takes a wrong turn and they are not going where they thought they were going.

I feel like nothing is too ridiculous to consider because I have read so many outrageous accounts of how children and women are victimized by killers who appeal to their empathy and goodness.

mOO

I’m not claiming that a 13 year old, or even a 58 year old, is too old to be lured by a puppy, but the chances diminish—and even more to the point, I suspect that the perpetrator’s likelihood of using it diminish, as their target age increases.

What mainly bothered me was the assumptions that it WAS a puppy under his coat, and, that, therefore, he MUST know that the two girls are interested in animals, and obviously he MUST have targeted the girls. It seems to me that none of the above is clearly true, although any of them might be. But it’s not a good idea for us to treat things as true that have not been proven.

 

[Ozoner]

somehow the inference that a 13 year old girl is too old to be lured by a puppy is bothersome to me..granted the girls are not very young children they are still children and the person who attacked them may have a preference for children of a certain age, which can definitely include 13 year old girls. A 13 year old girls is a child. not even a young woman, just a young barely teen.

there are many tricks and slight of hand moves in the killer's tool bag. deception is a favorite. Imagine the the pleasure a sadist will have when it is discovered by their victim that they were lured, deceived and trapped.

Imagine when Ted Bundy's victim realizes his sling / cast are fake. or when the car a victim is riding in takes a wrong turn and they are not going where they thought they were going.

I feel like nothing is too ridiculous to consider because I have read so many outrageous accounts of how children and women are victimized by killers who appeal to their empathy and goodness.

mOO

If BG had had a dog under his jacket, he would have had to support its weight with one hand. He isn't doing that in the video; that proves there is no dog under his coat. Even a small puppy would not stay in the jacket without its weight being supported—not even for one step. It would fall out instantly.

 

[Charlot123]

My interpretation:
If there are two of them, who are responsible, they are related to one another and have remarkable similarities.
If there is only one perp, he looks very much like the sketch #2.
I think, they HAVE a clue.

Yes, but not necessarily father-son. Uncle-nephew is possible, some cousins are possible, “of the same British/Irish/German initial stock” is possible, and even “bound by a romantic relationship” is possible. The issue is, Delphi is a small village, and generations lived there long enough to create similarity and certain types.

 

[Charlot123]

I’m not claiming that a 13 year old, or even a 58 year old, is too old to be lured by a puppy, but the chances diminish—and even more to the point, I suspect that the perpetrator’s likelihood of using it diminish, as their target age increases.

What mainly bothered me was the assumptions that it WAS a puppy under his coat, and, that, therefore, he MUST know that the two girls are interested in animals, and obviously he MUST have targeted the girls. It seems to me that none of the above is clearly true, although any of them might be. But it’s not a good idea for us to treat things as true that have not been proven.

No one assumes that there was a puppy. But I sometimes wonder if the perp has a weird sense of humor, you know? The issue of the puppy pops up periodically everywhere, so one wonders if it is a very bad joke.

 

[Charlot123]

You make great points, a previous case I was sleuthing doubted a dog was involved, but it indeed turned out to have been the lure. You are absolutely correct, we are sleuthing here. I value your input! To tell you the truth, before I came up with my current POI, my research led me to two subjects that had small black and white dogs that were very prominent (even one of which was carried around and would fit the ideas of puppy inside the jacket). Thanks for sharing your observations. That recent WS interview provided that new information about the puppy LG sat on the floor playing with on Feb 13, 2017, which makes it worthy of re-visiting, IMO.

So Libby had a puppy?

 

[Charlot123]

Yes—there was even a case where a guy hired someone to impersonate him (wear his clothes, stay in his house, drive around in his car) while he traveled to another state in order to kill his estranged wife. He had multiple eyewitnesses who saw "him" hundreds of miles from the crime scene at the time the murder was committed.

WOW! Did they find the impersonator? These days the DNA in the car and in the house would be telling.

However, this is exactly the situation when a father-son, or two lookalike brothers, could pull it. Same clothes, a profile in the car, certain height...

 

[Charlot123]

That posture is also something that has caught my eye. Our family has a medical condition Scoliosis that can cause one shoulder to drop and the leg on that side to be a bit longer and also contributes to posture issues, my daughters was so bad that when she was 13 she looked visibly different, once she had her back surgery it was not nearly as easy to see. So there are medical conditions that could case posture as well as gait issues regardless of age.

This is an amazingly sharp observation. While the gait might be just the loop, short neck and some asymmetry of the shoulders, even arms, might be emphasized by the jacket.

 

[MistyWaters]

somehow the inference that a 13 year old girl is too old to be lured by a puppy is bothersome to me..granted the girls are not very young children they are still children and the person who attacked them may have a preference for children of a certain age, which can definitely include 13 year old girls. A 13 year old girls is a child. not even a young woman, just a young barely teen.

there are many tricks and slight of hand moves in the killer's tool bag. deception is a favorite. Imagine the the pleasure a sadist will have when it is discovered by their victim that they were lured, deceived and trapped.

Imagine when Ted Bundy's victim realizes his sling / cast are fake. or when the car a victim is riding in takes a wrong turn and they are not going where they thought they were going.

I feel like nothing is too ridiculous to consider because I have read so many outrageous accounts of how children and women are victimized by killers who appeal to their empathy and goodness.

mOO

In every example of a pet being used to lure young children I can think of, it occurs near a playground or somewhere in a public area and the reason is so the child innocently and quietly approaches the pedophile with a vehicle and so an abduction of the child goes unnoticed by other people who are closeby in the area. Most times the pet doesn’t even exist - the plot is the child is asked to help the culprit look for a nonexistent missing dog.

So if the killer had a dog in his jacket, why would he request the girls go “down the hill” to look at it? That would seem very suspicious to most people, including 13 or 14 year old girls IMO. And as nobody else was anywhere around, what would be the reason to lure them “down the hill” as opposed to the killer producing a weapon as obviously he was prepared to murder.

And how can a puppy be kept quiet while his owner is in the midst of murdering innocent teenagers? He certainly couldn’t keep it in his coat, what would he do with it...stop to tie it up? If it got loose it could identify him so instead of fleeing he’d risk walking around looking for his puppy. No, sorry, I just can’t imagine a killer hiding a puppy in his coat.

 

[K.jill]

somehow the inference that a 13 year old girl is too old to be lured by a puppy is bothersome to me..granted the girls are not very young children they are still children and the person who attacked them may have a preference for children of a certain age, which can definitely include 13 year old girls. A 13 year old girls is a child. not even a young woman, just a young barely teen.

there are many tricks and slight of hand moves in the killer's tool bag. deception is a favorite. Imagine the the pleasure a sadist will have when it is discovered by their victim that they were lured, deceived and trapped.

Imagine when Ted Bundy's victim realizes his sling / cast are fake. or when the car a victim is riding in takes a wrong turn and they are not going where they thought they were going.

I feel like nothing is too ridiculous to consider because I have read so many outrageous accounts of how children and women are victimized by killers who appeal to their empathy and goodness.

mOO

I am 50, Been following cases on websleuths for 10 years and I’m very security conscious. I think someone could lure me with a puppy or any other animal. I actually think about this more than you would think...like when I was chasing down a German shepherd puppy at 2 AM, behind murder Kroger in Atlanta..
anyway, animals are a weak spot for me and probably lots of other people.

 

[girlfriday]

In every example of a pet being used to lure young children I can think of, it occurs near a playground or somewhere in a public area and the reason is so the child innocently approaches a vehicle and an abduction goes unnoticed. Most times the pet doesn’t even exist - the plot is the child is asked to help the culprit look for a missing dog that doesn’t exist.

So if the killer had a dog in his jacket, why would he request the girls go “down the hill” to look at it? That would seem very suspicious to most people, including 13 or 14 year old girls IMO. And as nobody else was anywhere around, what would be the reason to lure them “down the hill” as opposed to the killer producing a weapon as obviously he was prepared to murder them.

You make good points. Bolded by me, for focus on one point. ISP DB has said, at least twice, that it is just an assumption that the person depicted on the bridge is the person in the audio clips. It’s also been officially said of the person depicted that they at least played a role, if not the killer. So his role may have been to create a distraction, lure, ambush, etc. We all can only opine, without more specific facts. MOO