Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Laughing]

I still wonder if the Covid pandemic isn't having a detrimental effect on the case. This guy walks around with a mask. Maybe limiting his time outside his residence. And if he works in the type of business where he can tele-work that is just that much less public exposure.

Well, my situation may be atypical, but I had a variety of on-line meetings just this week with cameras on.

If this applies to BG of course, the jacket is not in the frame, no distinctive gait, and there is no baby goat/puppy/ rope/belt pack, either.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[JnRyan]

An interesting article on serial killers - assuming we might be dealing with one here. They discuss the "decline" of serial killers since the 1980's, but they also have some interesting statistics and they mention the difficulty of trying to link crimes.
What Explains the Decline of Serial Killers?

(I wonder if we have really have a decline or the number of serial killers in the 1980's was overstated.)

This is one of many times recently that I have heard of Thomas Hargrove and the Murder Accountability Project.

I, among others on here, believe this isn't this killer's only crime. I believe that at least prior to these murders he committed other sex related crimes like sexual assault or peeping tom and just hasn't been caught or linked to this case. We've never heard LE link Abigail and Liberty's murders to another unsolved murder or abduction case. Of course, they may have or they have possible theoretical link to one other or others and just haven't said anything to the public.

 

[Ozoner]

An interesting article on serial killers - assuming we might be dealing with one here. They discuss the "decline" of serial killers since the 1980's, but they also have some interesting statistics and they mention the difficulty of trying to link crimes.
What Explains the Decline of Serial Killers?

(I wonder if we have really have a decline or the number of serial killers in the 1980's was overstated.)

This is one of many times recently that I have heard of Thomas Hargrove and the Murder Accountability Project.

I, among others on here, believe this isn't this killer's only crime. I believe that at least prior to these murders he committed other sex related crimes like sexual assault or peeping tom and just hasn't been caught or linked to this case. We've never heard LE link Abigail and Liberty's murders to another unsolved murder or abduction case. Of course, they may have or they have possible theoretical link to one other or others and just haven't said anything to the public.

I haven't read the article posted yet, but I've read others on the same topic. If there's been a decline, I think that we have improved forensics to thank. Would-be serial killers are getting caught before the second killing and sometimes before they graduate from crimes like peeping or rape to murder.

ETA: After reading the article, I realize that I'd forgotten about changes in parole. Looking back at old cases from the 70s, it's unbelievable how often convicted murderers and rapists were released on parole. With the current push to reduce "mass incarceration," we may be at the beginning of a new uptick in serial killers.

 

[sandy_80]

crimes no longer make the buzz they used to make when everybody just watched tv and the same news...so who really knows if there were hidden serial killers in the vast majority of crimes that no one hears about...
also with the alleged decline of serial killer I would say there is also a decline in good old devoted detectives who would wreck their lives for cases and so on that we used to hear about ..

 

[sandy_80]

note that a prolific serial killer like samuel little wouldn't have become so if he didn't confess himself...why.. cause no one knew his victims... those who are unknown and forgotten...no one there to report them missing ...how would you know the figures about serial killers active when you don't know about those invisible crimes in the first place

 

[Number8]

note that a prolific serial killer like samuel little wouldn't have become so if he didn't confess himself...why.. cause no one knew his victims... those who are unknown and forgotten...no one there to report them missing ...how would you know the figures about serial killers active when you don't know about those invisible crimes in the first place

Agreed and I think they are many more serials than we know about for this very reason - “invisible crimes”. Unfortunately, there is still a “hierarchy” of victims in our society - some make the news way more than others. Samuel Little (and many others) got away with it for so long precisely because he intentionally preyed on the most vulnerable and those who society/media cares the least about. That’s why there are so many missing and murdered Indigenous women (a big issue up here in Canada). The more we fight for LE and the media to pay equal attention to crimes against people of colour, sex workers, homeless people, etc the less those predators will be able to get away with it and operate under the radar. JMO.

This guy (BG) is an entirely other kettle of fish. He picked very high profile/risky victims who would make huge news and whose absence would be noticed immediately. He obviously seeks the thrill and danger aspect. I worry that he will strike again. MOO.

 

[JnRyan]

note that a prolific serial killer like samuel little wouldn't have become so if he didn't confess himself...why.. cause no one knew his victims... those who are unknown and forgotten...no one there to report them missing ...how would you know the figures about serial killers active when you don't know about those invisible crimes in the first place

Another example is the West Mesa Murders. The prostitutes were missing, but there wasn't really any talk of a serial killer till the bones were found and the victims identified. The killer of Abigail and Liberty could be someone who has killed children that LE considers runaways. We just don't know.

 

[somequestions]

An interesting article on serial killers - assuming we might be dealing with one here. They discuss the "decline" of serial killers since the 1980's, but they also have some interesting statistics and they mention the difficulty of trying to link crimes.
What Explains the Decline of Serial Killers?

(I wonder if we have really have a decline or the number of serial killers in the 1980's was overstated.)

This is one of many times recently that I have heard of Thomas Hargrove and the Murder Accountability Project.

I, among others on here, believe this isn't this killer's only crime. I believe that at least prior to these murders he committed other sex related crimes like sexual assault or peeping tom and just hasn't been caught or linked to this case. We've never heard LE link Abigail and Liberty's murders to another unsolved murder or abduction case. Of course, they may have or they have possible theoretical link to one other or others and just haven't said anything to the public.

If the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German is a serial killer, then the idea that this person is a local to Delphi or the surrounding area because they are familiar with the location of the Monon High Bridge trail and could cross it, does not make a lot of sense.

I think if there were related crimes in surrounding towns or cities then wouldn't people be trying to link those cases even if there was no proof. So if this person is a serial killer it does not sound like they operate in the Delphi or surrounding area. I think it could possibly be a serial killer, but I do not think they are from Delphi, Indiana or the surrounding area.

The killer in this case seems like an older person who is patient and waits for the right opportunity to present itself. They commit the crime and then are long gone soon after. I could never understand at the beginning why so many people thought that being able to cross the Monon High Bridge meant the killer must be familiar with the bridge and therefore from somewhere near or around the Delphi, Indiana area. The Monon High Bridge trail, while remote, is a public place. At first it seemed like a good theory because of the remote location, and the Monon High Bridge does look very rundown. It looks like a bridge you have to be very careful trying to cross.

It might be risky, but so is double murder.

 

[Ozoner]

If the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German is a serial killer, then the idea that this person is a local to Delphi or the surrounding area because they are familiar with the location of the Monon High Bridge trail and could cross it, does not make a lot of sense.

I think if there were related crimes in surrounding towns or cities then wouldn't people be trying to link those cases even if there was no proof. So if this person is a serial killer it does not sound like they operate in the Delphi or surrounding area. I think it could possibly be a serial killer, but I do not think they are from Delphi, Indiana or the surrounding area.

The killer in this case seems like an older person who is patient and waits for the right opportunity to present itself. They commit the crime and then are long gone soon after. I could never understand at the beginning why so many people thought that being able to cross the Monon High Bridge meant the killer must be familiar with the bridge and therefore from somewhere near or around the Delphi, Indiana area. The Monon High Bridge trail, while remote, is a public place. At first it seemed like a good theory because of the remote location, and the Monon High Bridge does look very rundown. It looks like a bridge you have to be very careful trying to cross.

It might be risky, but so is double murder.

I can see what you mean. I have done a lot of hiking, and to me, crossing the Monon High Bridge would be nothing. I've hiked across natural features that were much more dangerous—mountain trails where a mis-step could mean plummeting hundreds of feet, not sixty; slippery rock trails near raging rivers; steep talus slopes hundreds up feet up the side of a mountain; etc.
Still, BG seems to be moving pretty briskly. You would think that either he had some familiarity with it—which might just mean that he crossed it a couple of times before the girls arrived—or the bridge wasn't as dilapidated as people have made out. Who here has visited the bridge? How many ties were actually missing? Were the ties that were there rotten enough that they seemed like they might break, or were they relatively sound?
ETA: I googled railroad tie spacing, and Google says that wooden railroad ties are typically 19.5 inches on center. Is that about how far apart the ties on the Monon High Bridge are?

 

[JnRyan]

If the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German is a serial killer, then the idea that this person is a local to Delphi or the surrounding area because they are familiar with the location of the Monon High Bridge trail and could cross it, does not make a lot of sense.

I think if there were related crimes in surrounding towns or cities then wouldn't people be trying to link those cases even if there was no proof. So if this person is a serial killer it does not sound like they operate in the Delphi or surrounding area. I think it could possibly be a serial killer, but I do not think they are from Delphi, Indiana or the surrounding area.

The killer in this case seems like an older person who is patient and waits for the right opportunity to present itself. They commit the crime and then are long gone soon after. I could never understand at the beginning why so many people thought that being able to cross the Monon High Bridge meant the killer must be familiar with the bridge and therefore from somewhere near or around the Delphi, Indiana area. The Monon High Bridge trail, while remote, is a public place. At first it seemed like a good theory because of the remote location, and the Monon High Bridge does look very rundown. It looks like a bridge you have to be very careful trying to cross.

It might be risky, but so is double murder.

I can't argue against your theory even if it would be just my opinion.

 

[Marzipan]

It wasn't long after I started following this case -- a year -- ago, that some verified LE people on here stated that they thought when the killer was found it would be a serial killer, not his first time, and we would have never heard of him.
I keep going back to that, after having so many POIs over the year. It's going to be similar to the Jacob Wetterling case: None of us will have ever heard of him, and we will have been wrong about all our POIs (however vile many of them are regardless). And, he won't be completely unknown to the investigation, but will have just slipped through the cracks after some early suspicion. My opinion only, and only at this moment.
After Jacob's killer was finally found, I swore I wouldn't follow these cases anymore because they pull in too much of myself. I've been better though lately about not going down too many rabbit holes. Gotta take time for the living too. Wishing a peaceful holiday to all who are celebrating now or will be in the next couple of weeks.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

If the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German is a serial killer, then the idea that this person is a local to Delphi or the surrounding area because they are familiar with the location of the Monon High Bridge trail and could cross it, does not make a lot of sense.

I think if there were related crimes in surrounding towns or cities then wouldn't people be trying to link those cases even if there was no proof. So if this person is a serial killer it does not sound like they operate in the Delphi or surrounding area. I think it could possibly be a serial killer, but I do not think they are from Delphi, Indiana or the surrounding area.

The killer in this case seems like an older person who is patient and waits for the right opportunity to present itself. They commit the crime and then are long gone soon after. I could never understand at the beginning why so many people thought that being able to cross the Monon High Bridge meant the killer must be familiar with the bridge and therefore from somewhere near or around the Delphi, Indiana area. The Monon High Bridge trail, while remote, is a public place. At first it seemed like a good theory because of the remote location, and the Monon High Bridge does look very rundown. It looks like a bridge you have to be very careful trying to cross.

It might be risky, but so is double murder.

I totally agree. I have never thought just because the killer could easily walk across the bridge, or knew the terrain etc, he had to be local or connected in some way to Delphi. We are all familiar with places we vacation at or enjoy visiting even though we don’t live there. Or a little scouting around could draw a killer to the trails. If LE truly thinks he’s local there needs to be some other reason than his walking on the bridge etc.

 

[Yemelyan]

I totally agree. I have never thought just because the killer could easily walk across the bridge, or knew the terrain etc, he had to be local or connected in some way to Delphi. We are all familiar with places we vacation at or enjoy visiting even though we don’t live there. Or a little scouting around could draw a killer to the trails. If LE truly thinks he’s local there needs to be some other reason than his walking on the bridge etc.

This is all true. I keep going back to the idea, too, that LE may have reasons other than what they've stated that led them to the conclusion that he is or was relatively local. Just because they haven't told the public all of their evidence or their line of reasoning, doesn't mean that they are guessing.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

If the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German is a serial killer, then the idea that this person is a local to Delphi or the surrounding area because they are familiar with the location of the Monon High Bridge trail and could cross it, does not make a lot of sense.

Exactly. I've made that point on multiple sites. In one case after another, pronouncements are often made that may seem logical separately, but with total disregard to the combined meaning.

Decades ago our debate coach used to emphasize that all the time, to avoid conflicting arguments and always be on the lookout for them by the opponent

 

[somequestions]

This is all true. I keep going back to the idea, too, that LE may have reasons other than what they've stated that led them to the conclusion that he is or was relatively local. Just because they haven't told the public all of their evidence or their line of reasoning, doesn't mean that they are guessing.

I used to think the same way until I actually met LE. Being in LE is a job for them. Criminals keep committing crimes and there are more criminals and more crimes than just the Delphi murders.

Life goes on for the police and for the criminals they are tasked with apprehending. Maybe there is some type of other reasons police have that led them to their conclusions, but I really do think the police are just guessing with the second sketch because they are looking for an unknown. Maybe they get lucky with a tip that they can connect the forensic evidence they have to? I think they figured if they just cover their bases by saying the killer lives or lived, works or worked, and visits or visited that any type of association past or present will be seen as having an association to Delphi. Because in order to know any place usually it is because of one of those three reasons.

Just because police have not told us why they put out the second sketch does not mean they are not guessing either.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I can see what you mean. I have done a lot of hiking, and to me, crossing the Monon High Bridge would be nothing. I've hiked across natural features that were much more dangerous—mountain trails where a mis-step could mean plummeting hundreds of feet, not sixty; slippery rock trails near raging rivers; steep talus slopes hundreds up feet up the side of a mountain; etc.
Still, BG seems to be moving pretty briskly. You would think that either he had some familiarity with it—which might just mean that he crossed it a couple of times before the girls arrived—or the bridge wasn't as dilapidated as people have made out. Who here has visited the bridge? How many ties were actually missing? Were the ties that were there rotten enough that they seemed like they might break, or were they relatively sound?
ETA: I googled railroad tie spacing, and Google says that wooden railroad ties are typically 19.5 inches on center. Is that about how far apart the ties on the Monon High Bridge are?

19.5 inches seems too far. I'd estimate 14 or 15 from center to center at Monon High. I'll post a couple of pictures at end of the post. The gaps are considerably wider and the planks in worse shape at the beginning of the bridge, while it's over Deer Creek. Obviously for decades most bridge walkers sample that section only, before turning around. Maybe 40 feet out there is one prominent missing plank that stands out because the next plank is wearing out and insecure also. It's basically a requirement to step or jump over two plank sections. Then I believe there was another missing plank, but not as bad because the surrounding planks were secure.

Beginning is slow going and nerve wracking because so many planks are awful. They look awful and are awful. Fortunately there were videos prior to my visit that demonstrated that the worst section was the first 100 feet or so. Then it begins to improve. If I hadn't known that I probably wouldn't have ventured across because it is anything but evident while standing there at the foot. Subsequently the biggest problem I had were spongy planks that did not look spongy. Happened several times. Twice I got careless and had my weight leaning backwards while I stepped forward onto a spongy plank. That sent me whirlybirding to maintain balance. The first one was particularly scary because I had one or two seconds to wonder what would happen if I fell fully backwards onto worn planks at 6-3 and 205 pounds. It was 40 degrees and I was a Floridian burdened by a comparatively heavy jacket that I use maybe once or twice per year. In lighter more comfortable attire there's no question I would have felt more nimble and at ease.

Despite my two wobbles I'd say the difficulty and danger of crossing is wildly overstated by most followers of this case. That's because so many photos and videos are taken from below or above the bridge. Those angles lend toward human vulnerability. They also tend to exaggerate the gaps between planks. But once you're up there it's plenty wide enough and you focus on the task...one step at a time.

The end of the bridge where Bridge Guy was videotaped is a comparative piece of cake, with narrow gaps. That is a cruise control section. I could have walked with hands in pockets. The only issue in that area was lots of green moss on the planks. And smack in the middle of the planks. That moss must not be frequent because I have never seen it in other photos or videos but it was all over the place during my November 2019 visit, and quite slick. The plentiful moss was a contributing factor to my decision not to cross the bridge on the way back.

imgur.com

imgur.com

 

[Number8]

It wasn't long after I started following this case -- a year -- ago, that some verified LE people on here stated that they thought when the killer was found it would be a serial killer, not his first time, and we would have never heard of him.
I keep going back to that, after having so many POIs over the year. It's going to be similar to the Jacob Wetterling case: None of us will have ever heard of him, and we will have been wrong about all our POIs (however vile many of them are regardless). And, he won't be completely unknown to the investigation, but will have just slipped through the cracks after some early suspicion. My opinion only, and only at this moment.
After Jacob's killer was finally found, I swore I wouldn't follow these cases anymore because they pull in too much of myself. I've been better though lately about not going down too many rabbit holes. Gotta take time for the living too. Wishing a peaceful holiday to all who are celebrating now or will be in the next couple of weeks.

A good reminder to all of us to keep coming back to the land of the living

 

[Awsi Dooger]

This is all true. I keep going back to the idea, too, that LE may have reasons other than what they've stated that led them to the conclusion that he is or was relatively local. Just because they haven't told the public all of their evidence or their line of reasoning, doesn't mean that they are guessing.

I remember a YouTube audio-only interview with Tobe Leazenby in which he said all the original focus was toward local, but when that didn't lead anywhere they switched to non-local emphasis. I think that interview was with Katt. It was prior to the two-year anniversary.

It must have been something regarding the car that caused authorities to switch back to local. Through subsequent digging they apparently had reason to believe the CPS car ventured through Delphi earlier in the day, and seemed to have familiarity. I think that's why they shifted back to local in the 2019 presser.

It could also be a case of local authorities deciding to do it their own way, to follow their own instincts, once the FBI and national presence was not as great.

 

[pearl]

The rapidity of the time frame of these murders just screams local perp to me. Someone with extensive knowledge of the trail system, and potential entrances and exits to the area.

 

[Ozoner]

19.5 inches seems too far. I'd estimate 14 or 15 from center to center at Monon High. I'll post a couple of pictures at end of the post. The gaps are considerably wider and the planks in worse shape at the beginning of the bridge, while it's over Deer Creek. Obviously for decades most bridge walkers sample that section only, before turning around. Maybe 40 feet out there is one prominent missing plank that stands out because the next plank is wearing out and insecure also. It's basically a requirement to step or jump over two plank sections. Then I believe there was another missing plank, but not as bad because the surrounding planks were secure.

Beginning is slow going and nerve wracking because so many planks are awful. They look awful and are awful. Fortunately there were videos prior to my visit that demonstrated that the worst section was the first 100 feet or so. Then it begins to improve. If I hadn't known that I probably wouldn't have ventured across because it is anything but evident while standing there at the foot. Subsequently the biggest problem I had were spongy planks that did not look spongy. Happened several times. Twice I got careless and had my weight leaning backwards while I stepped forward onto a spongy plank. That sent me whirlybirding to maintain balance. The first one was particularly scary because I had one or two seconds to wonder what would happen if I fell fully backwards onto worn planks at 6-3 and 205 pounds. It was 40 degrees and I was a Floridian burdened by a comparatively heavy jacket that I use maybe once or twice per year. In lighter more comfortable attire there's no question I would have felt more nimble and at ease.

Despite my two wobbles I'd say the difficulty and danger of crossing is wildly overstated by most followers of this case. That's because so many photos and videos are taken from below or above the bridge. Those angles lend toward human vulnerability. They also tend to exaggerate the gaps between planks. But once you're up there it's plenty wide enough and you focus on the task...one step at a time.

The end of the bridge where Bridge Guy was videotaped is a comparative piece of cake, with narrow gaps. That is a cruise control section. I could have walked with hands in pockets. The only issue in that area was lots of green moss on the planks. And smack in the middle of the planks. That moss must not be frequent because I have never seen it in other photos or videos but it was all over the place during my November 2019 visit, and quite slick. The plentiful moss was a contributing factor to my decision not to cross the bridge on the way back.

imgur.com

imgur.com

Thanks for the detailed reply. The video of BG may be a little misleading in that we don't see him walking on the more dangerous part of the bridge; he may have been much more cautious on the hazardous sections that you described.