Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

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A new episode of the HLN podcast Down the Hill was released today. It's a short one at 18 minutes. Leazenby and prosecutor Nic McClelland are interviewed. I'll summarize a bit of what was revealed.

HLN's new two part episode will show the actual location where the girls' bodies were recovered.

Leazenby says that there is a lot of evidence ("From what I know.") Fingerprints were collected - but every crime scene has fingerprints. LE does not know yet who the fingerprints belong to. DNA was recovered. Again, there is not a person who has been matched with the DNA that they have.

Leazenby was asked if they have more video and does he think it should be released. He stated that he's not sure what advantage releasing more of it would have. People think that there's something earthshattering contained on the video that will jump out at them and lead them to solve the case but he doesn't think there is anything like that contained on it.

As far as Leazenby is aware, there is no more audio of BG's voice on the video. "Guys....down the hill" is all there is from the offender. There are still "items" studied within the video by investigators and he considers it a positive piece that will eventually be used in the courtroom. Leazenby, for his part, re-watches the video at least once every two weeks.

Cause of death - Leazenby believes this should be saved for the courtroom. If shared, the individual responsible will know that LE are correct about their theory of the crime. In addition to maintaining the integrity of the case, however, in his opinion, in this case knowing COD would not help an outsider to know the offender's identity.

Does Leazenby have any regrets? His regret is that there was a canine unit in route to help locate the girls and after they were found, the canine unit was not used. Canines maybe could have tracked down where the offender exited the scene. He was asked do investigators know how/where the offender exited and his answer is that nothing factual in this regard has been developed at this point.

His personal faith leads him to believe that good will eventually triumph over evil in this case.

The prosecutor who took over when Robert Ives stepped down, Nic McClelland, is interviewed. He stressed that the case is still open and active. Full time investigators work on the case every single day. Things are still happening behind the scenes. They are still investigating tips but even more importantly, they are still executing search warrants in this case. Does he think more info could be released? From his standpoint, there is strategy involved. If he wants to solve the case, he must maintain the integrity of some of this information. He states that when the case is over, it will all be public. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty through the process so evidence will all come out. He is confident that this will be prosecuted and that they "will catch the person or people responsible."

Link to HLN podcast site here: https://www.downthehillpodcast.com/
 
A new episode of the HLN podcast Down the Hill was released today. It's a short one at 18 minutes. Leazenby and prosecutor Nic McClelland are interviewed. I'll summarize a bit of what was revealed.

HLN's new two part episode will show the actual location where the girls' bodies were recovered.

Leazenby says that there is a lot of evidence ("From what I know.") Fingerprints were collected - but every crime scene has fingerprints. LE does not know yet who the fingerprints belong to. DNA was recovered. Again, there is not a person who has been matched with the DNA that they have.

Leazenby was asked if they have more video and does he think it should be released. He stated that he's not sure what advantage releasing more of it would have. People think that there's something earthshattering contained on the video that will jump out at them and lead them to solve the case but he doesn't think there is anything like that contained on it.

As far as Leazenby is aware, there is no more audio of BG's voice on the video. "Guys....down the hill" is all there is from the offender. There are still "items" studied within the video by investigators and he considers it a positive piece that will eventually be used in the courtroom. Leazenby, for his part, re-watches the video at least once every two weeks.

Cause of death - Leazenby believes this should be saved for the courtroom. If shared, the individual responsible will know that LE are correct about their theory of the crime. In addition to maintaining the integrity of the case, however, in his opinion, in this case knowing COD would not help an outsider to know the offender's identity.

Does Leazenby have any regrets? His regret is that there was a canine unit in route to help locate the girls and after they were found, the canine unit was not used. Canines maybe could have tracked down where the offender exited the scene. He was asked do investigators know how/where the offender exited and his answer is that nothing factual in this regard has been developed at this point.

His personal faith leads him to believe that good will eventually triumph over evil in this case.

The prosecutor who took over when Robert Ives stepped down, Nic McClelland, is interviewed. He stressed that the case is still open and active. Full time investigators work on the case every single day. Things are still happening behind the scenes. They are still investigating tips but even more importantly, they are still executing search warrants in this case. Does he think more info could be released? From his standpoint, there is strategy involved. If he wants to solve the case, he must maintain the integrity of some of this information. He states that when the case is over, it will all be public. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty through the process so evidence will all come out. He is confident that this will be prosecuted and that they "will catch the person or people responsible."

Link to HLN podcast site here: https://www.downthehillpodcast.com/

This is very very interesting and great information. I have a little more hope that an arrest may come after all!
 
A new episode of the HLN podcast Down the Hill was released today. It's a short one at 18 minutes. Leazenby and prosecutor Nic McClelland are interviewed. I'll summarize a bit of what was revealed.

HLN's new two part episode will show the actual location where the girls' bodies were recovered.

Leazenby says that there is a lot of evidence ("From what I know.") Fingerprints were collected - but every crime scene has fingerprints. LE does not know yet who the fingerprints belong to. DNA was recovered. Again, there is not a person who has been matched with the DNA that they have.

Leazenby was asked if they have more video and does he think it should be released. He stated that he's not sure what advantage releasing more of it would have. People think that there's something earthshattering contained on the video that will jump out at them and lead them to solve the case but he doesn't think there is anything like that contained on it.

As far as Leazenby is aware, there is no more audio of BG's voice on the video. "Guys....down the hill" is all there is from the offender. There are still "items" studied within the video by investigators and he considers it a positive piece that will eventually be used in the courtroom. Leazenby, for his part, re-watches the video at least once every two weeks.

Cause of death - Leazenby believes this should be saved for the courtroom. If shared, the individual responsible will know that LE are correct about their theory of the crime. In addition to maintaining the integrity of the case, however, in his opinion, in this case knowing COD would not help an outsider to know the offender's identity.

Does Leazenby have any regrets? His regret is that there was a canine unit in route to help locate the girls and after they were found, the canine unit was not used. Canines maybe could have tracked down where the offender exited the scene. He was asked do investigators know how/where the offender exited and his answer is that nothing factual in this regard has been developed at this point.

His personal faith leads him to believe that good will eventually triumph over evil in this case.

The prosecutor who took over when Robert Ives stepped down, Nic McClelland, is interviewed. He stressed that the case is still open and active. Full time investigators work on the case every single day. Things are still happening behind the scenes. They are still investigating tips but even more importantly, they are still executing search warrants in this case. Does he think more info could be released? From his standpoint, there is strategy involved. If he wants to solve the case, he must maintain the integrity of some of this information. He states that when the case is over, it will all be public. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty through the process so evidence will all come out. He is confident that this will be prosecuted and that they "will catch the person or people responsible."

Link to HLN podcast site here: https://www.downthehillpodcast.com/


This feels like positive information. I appreciate that within this post/interview there are clarifications made- that at least I , myself- have desperately searched for.

It also makes me more optimistic that LE is on the right track.
 
If shared, the individual responsible will know that LE are correct about their theory of the crime.
Snipped for focus:

This stands out to me and makes me curious about the nature of their COD. For example, if it was as straight forward as the individual responsible had shot them both, then there would really be no theory given away by releasing the COD. It would have been obvious the victims had been shot and the killer would have known it. Jmo. So maybe this wasn't so straight forward. (And I only used being shot as an example...)
 
Snipped for focus:

This stands out to me and makes me curious about the nature of their COD. For example, if it was as straight forward as the individual responsible had shot them both, then there would really be no theory given away by releasing the COD. It would have been obvious the victims had been shot and the killer would have known it. Jmo. So maybe this wasn't so straight forward. (And I only used being shot as an example...)

Yes, I had the same conclusion as you. There may have been an "order" of events that took place at the scene. What happened first, what happened next. Did something not work to his satisfaction and another method was also used. I'm deliberately being vague in my speculation here. Not straightforward, as you said.
 
I don't think anyone saw him that day. The sketches at this point are useless, MOO.
Snipped for emphasis. This is a point I lose track of most of the time. This case is unique in that the sketches are not based on witnesses who saw the killer at the crime scene, leaving the crime scene or even with the girls. These are from those in the area at the time trying to remember who they saw in the area at the time. The general area - which could be on the trail, on Freedom Bridge or in a parking lot. And who really pays much attention to those around them? If one of us went to the grocery store this weekend and LE stated they believed a killer was in the parking lot would any of us remember who we saw walking to or from vehicles one to two days later? Heck, one of the 'witnesses' gave a description of the killer and it turned out to be Liberty's grandfather, Mike Patty, who was out searching. (Per ISP 1st Sgt Holeman and Mike Patty himself.) I believe that someone saw the killer. But the possibility that no one did is something I can't ignore.
 
The possibility that two persons might be directly involved? LE has stated - most recently by the sheriff - that the possibility of two persons is on their minds to some extent. One aspect I think of is DNA from the scene and the victims. ISP 1st Sgt Holeman has stated (August 2017 interview?) that 'touch DNA' is a very powerful LE tool. One scenario that I've thought about is not just direct touch, but transfer. For example, a person is touched by another person or multiple persons while working in a retail store. Then that person on a lunch break or after their shift bumps into Kelsie while she is wearing the sweatshirt. Multiple DNA might be transferred. The day of the murders, Kelsie loaned that hooded sweatshirt to Abby. (We know this happened because it is mentioned in various interviews.) If LE pulls DNA they would now have multiple unidentified DNA.

Just one possible scenario. In that scenario, only one set of DNA might actually belong to the killer. Assuming he left any behind. But with multiple DNA who knows for sure if it is one killer, two killers or if LE actually has the DNA of the killer? Or killers?

Personally, I'm in the camp of only one killer. But if LE has stated they have doubts, I can't rule two killers.
 
The possibility that two persons might be directly involved? LE has stated - most recently by the sheriff - that the possibility of two persons is on their minds to some extent. One aspect I think of is DNA from the scene and the victims. ISP 1st Sgt Holeman has stated (August 2017 interview?) that 'touch DNA' is a very powerful LE tool. One scenario that I've thought about is not just direct touch, but transfer. For example, a person is touched by another person or multiple persons while working in a retail store. Then that person on a lunch break or after their shift bumps into Kelsie while she is wearing the sweatshirt. Multiple DNA might be transferred. The day of the murders, Kelsie loaned that hooded sweatshirt to Abby. (We know this happened because it is mentioned in various interviews.) If LE pulls DNA they would now have multiple unidentified DNA.

Just one possible scenario. In that scenario, only one set of DNA might actually belong to the killer. Assuming he left any behind. But with multiple DNA who knows for sure if it is one killer, two killers or if LE actually has the DNA of the killer? Or killers?

Personally, I'm in the camp of only one killer. But if LE has stated they have doubts, I can't rule two killers.

Agree. If an item left behind (intentionally) had the DNA of a person on it, it doesn't necessarily mean it was the killers, especially if it was something totally inanimate and not like a used condom, a blade of a knife, etc. The killer could have picked up that item at Goodwill or something. So what he said on the podcast about them not knowing if the DNA belongs to the killer made sense to me. They may have DNA, but I don't think this case is going to be solved BY DNA.

If two killers were involved, I don't think two killers did the actual murdering. Maybe two were together at the trail that day and one is just covering for the other after the fact (or even helped with the planning/staging things).
 
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I have never given up the thought that the killer lost his hat. There was discussion about it at one time but I can't exactly recall it. I do know it stuck with me. Old bridge guy with hat...young bridge guy without a hat. I do remember somewhere LE said to not focus on the hat or something to that effect. JMHO
MOO a hat would give them unequivocal DNA - and a good shot at familial DNA work up. It would be great if they did.
 
I had a discussion with someone today about spies and in particular about John Walker. When I was in the military, we had annual required security training and the Walker case was covered. As a junior member, I was in one staff unit with some senior military personnel who were in the later part of the Vietnam War and had missions that went sideways. And some of these such missions may have been because of codes Walker gave to the Soviets who in turn provided that to the North Vietnamese. It was believed that missions from 1968 on were severely compromised by Walker.

Where is this going? Well, how does a guy like Walker do this and not get noticed by his family? It seems that Walker’s wife suspected him as early as 1968. He was betraying our country in the middle of a war and yet she didn’t say anything. She was benefiting from the extra money as Walker’s pay as a senior enlisted or CWO was not that large back then. (We had senior enlisted, chief petty officers and senior chief petty officers who had 2nd jobs and were on food stamps in the late 1970’s and early to mid 1980’s.) She was also scared of him. But sometime after the divorce and before the FBI finally believed her, she made several calls to the FBI. But she either hung up or was too drunk to be taken seriously by the authorities. She did this for years - 1976 to 1984. Walker does not get arrested till 1985.

I, for one, believe those of us on here are in a very small minority with regard to this case. We cite news media and interviews over and over. We hope for any such update such as the upcoming HLN feature on this case. But I would bet the overwhelming majority, even in Indiana, don’t follow it. When an update comes on the news, now is the time to get that beer from the fridge, while they wait for the weather forecast or sports news coming later. (“Oh, that case in that whatchamacallit town of central Indiana? I thought they solved that. That’s the problem of that town and not mine.”) Those that even know of the case that is.

IF, and I emphasize IF, there exists that one person who does recognize the person in the video (and MAYBE one of the sketches), they may be like Walker’s ex-wife. (I think the non-family members and some acquaintances of this killer haven’t paid much attention to this case or the video/audio/sketches.) If someone does suspect maybe they’ve tried and hung up. Or maybe were too drunk, or stoned or otherwise high to be taken seriously and their call is lost among the thousands in the database.

I wonder if somewhere down the road there will be arrest. (And this thread will blow up when that happens!) And we hear that a tip was actually called in the first few months. And maybe the person called back again later. It happened in the Tara Grinstead murder case years before an arrest.

Just thinking out loud late at night. After a few shots of bourbon to aid (or not) in my speculations.
 
Yes, I had the same conclusion as you. There may have been an "order" of events that took place at the scene. What happened first, what happened next. Did something not work to his satisfaction and another method was also used. I'm deliberately being vague in my speculation here. Not straightforward, as you said.
Not to be flippant, but I don't think anybody has ever suggested that the killings were "straightforward", or that there wasn't an "order" of events (after all, two different murders were committed). I think most people simply assume that one murder happened first, and the other murder happened second. Is there any way you could be a little less vague with your speculation? I'd be interested to hear your theory. TIA and JMO
 
A new episode of the HLN podcast Down the Hill was released today. It's a short one at 18 minutes. Leazenby and prosecutor Nic McClelland are interviewed. I'll summarize a bit of what was revealed.

HLN's new two part episode will show the actual location where the girls' bodies were recovered.

Leazenby says that there is a lot of evidence ("From what I know.") Fingerprints were collected - but every crime scene has fingerprints. LE does not know yet who the fingerprints belong to. DNA was recovered. Again, there is not a person who has been matched with the DNA that they have.

Leazenby was asked if they have more video and does he think it should be released. He stated that he's not sure what advantage releasing more of it would have. People think that there's something earthshattering contained on the video that will jump out at them and lead them to solve the case but he doesn't think there is anything like that contained on it.

As far as Leazenby is aware, there is no more audio of BG's voice on the video. "Guys....down the hill" is all there is from the offender. There are still "items" studied within the video by investigators and he considers it a positive piece that will eventually be used in the courtroom. Leazenby, for his part, re-watches the video at least once every two weeks.

Cause of death - Leazenby believes this should be saved for the courtroom. If shared, the individual responsible will know that LE are correct about their theory of the crime. In addition to maintaining the integrity of the case, however, in his opinion, in this case knowing COD would not help an outsider to know the offender's identity.

Does Leazenby have any regrets? His regret is that there was a canine unit in route to help locate the girls and after they were found, the canine unit was not used. Canines maybe could have tracked down where the offender exited the scene. He was asked do investigators know how/where the offender exited and his answer is that nothing factual in this regard has been developed at this point.

His personal faith leads him to believe that good will eventually triumph over evil in this case.

The prosecutor who took over when Robert Ives stepped down, Nic McClelland, is interviewed. He stressed that the case is still open and active. Full time investigators work on the case every single day. Things are still happening behind the scenes. They are still investigating tips but even more importantly, they are still executing search warrants in this case. Does he think more info could be released? From his standpoint, there is strategy involved. If he wants to solve the case, he must maintain the integrity of some of this information. He states that when the case is over, it will all be public. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty through the process so evidence will all come out. He is confident that this will be prosecuted and that they "will catch the person or people responsible."

Link to HLN podcast site here: https://www.downthehillpodcast.com/
Usable fingerprints from an outside crime scene where victims were exposed to overnight winter temps is interesting. I've read lifting fingerprints from skin and fabrics is possible but difficult and it's nearly impossible with organic materials such as leaves or branches etc.

No other audio capturing the killer's voice except those 4 words is unfortunate to hear. With no more audio I would think trying to match it to any suspect couldn't be very accurately done.

LE doesn't factually know the route the Delphi killer took leaving an the outdoor crime scene. I'm guessing there was too much ground cover, fallen leaves to track a man's path and killer didn't leave any trail of blood because he didn't get much on his person?

Stilling executing search warrants 4 years later stumps me but good as to what the heck they could be telling a judge they're looking for or why they think they have a probable cause of finding it. I'd really love to hear what everyone thinks about this one

Thanks for all this info, very thought provoking in many areas!
 
I had a discussion with someone today about spies and in particular about John Walker. When I was in the military, we had annual required security training and the Walker case was covered. As a junior member, I was in one staff unit with some senior military personnel who were in the later part of the Vietnam War and had missions that went sideways. And some of these such missions may have been because of codes Walker gave to the Soviets who in turn provided that to the North Vietnamese. It was believed that missions from 1968 on were severely compromised by Walker.

Where is this going? Well, how does a guy like Walker do this and not get noticed by his family? It seems that Walker’s wife suspected him as early as 1968. He was betraying our country in the middle of a war and yet she didn’t say anything. She was benefiting from the extra money as Walker’s pay as a senior enlisted or CWO was not that large back then. (We had senior enlisted, chief petty officers and senior chief petty officers who had 2nd jobs and were on food stamps in the late 1970’s and early to mid 1980’s.) She was also scared of him. But sometime after the divorce and before the FBI finally believed her, she made several calls to the FBI. But she either hung up or was too drunk to be taken seriously by the authorities. She did this for years - 1976 to 1984. Walker does not get arrested till 1985.

I, for one, believe those of us on here are in a very small minority with regard to this case. We cite news media and interviews over and over. We hope for any such update such as the upcoming HLN feature on this case. But I would bet the overwhelming majority, even in Indiana, don’t follow it. When an update comes on the news, now is the time to get that beer from the fridge, while they wait for the weather forecast or sports news coming later. (“Oh, that case in that whatchamacallit town of central Indiana? I thought they solved that. That’s the problem of that town and not mine.”) Those that even know of the case that is.

IF, and I emphasize IF, there exists that one person who does recognize the person in the video (and MAYBE one of the sketches), they may be like Walker’s ex-wife. (I think the non-family members and some acquaintances of this killer haven’t paid much attention to this case or the video/audio/sketches.) If someone does suspect maybe they’ve tried and hung up. Or maybe were too drunk, or stoned or otherwise high to be taken seriously and their call is lost among the thousands in the database.

I wonder if somewhere down the road there will be arrest. (And this thread will blow up when that happens!) And we hear that a tip was actually called in the first few months. And maybe the person called back again later. It happened in the Tara Grinstead murder case years before an arrest.

Just thinking out loud late at night. After a few shots of bourbon to aid (or not) in my speculations.
One of the things ISP Carter made sure to say to the killer was LE was confident he'd either told someone or somebody close to him had noticed a change in his behavior.

I don't understand after 2 years why he'd think that. Both of these things, in my mind, would point more to LE thinking they're dealing with a first time killer. But maybe the person or persons closest to that first time killer just don't see a difference in their relation or acquaintance? The killer's state of mind may not be regretful enough or at all to admit anything to anyone.
 
I thought about that too. But if he did have a hat or really any other clothing item that was accidentally left at the scene, there would be a very good chance of getting an exact DNA profile. I know the hair follicle is needed but if he lost a hat/other item, I'd assume it was during a struggle and likely there were multiple hairs in and on the item. That would be a fantastic find.

I am periodically posting different articles about rootless hair, here is one more. It is possible now to extract DNA from rootless hair.
Forensics breakthrough: DNA extracted from rootless hair - Genome BC
 
Agree. If an item left behind (intentionally) had the DNA of a person on it, it doesn't necessarily mean it was the killers, especially if it was something totally inanimate and not like a used condom, a blade of a knife, etc. The killer could have picked up that item at Goodwill or something. So what he said on the podcast about them not knowing if the DNA belongs to the killer made sense to me. They may have DNA, but I don't think this case is going to be solved BY DNA.

If two killers were involved, I don't think two killers did the actual murdering. Maybe two were together at the trail that day and one is just covering for the other after the fact (or even helped with the planning/staging things).

I still think they have multiple sources of DNA, perhaps, multiple DNAs, as they are obviously able to rule suspects out based on their material. This indicates that they are more or less sure that what they have comes from the killer.
 
Snipped for focus:

This stands out to me and makes me curious about the nature of their COD. For example, if it was as straight forward as the individual responsible had shot them both, then there would really be no theory given away by releasing the COD. It would have been obvious the victims had been shot and the killer would have known it. Jmo. So maybe this wasn't so straight forward. (And I only used being shot as an example...)

Yes, it is complicated. Obviously, mode of killing was not straightforward. But imagine, another typical way of murdering, common for serial killers? In this case, if the details are released, suddenly, someone’s ex-, GF or wife realizes, the guy likes doing exactly this in our play... She could even think, this guy loves to march with his (cold weapon). It could be very helpful, potentially, I think.

On the other hand, each time anything of value is released, the police station probably explodes with calls from all disgruntled exes... or family members. It will be horribly difficult to sort through, I can not even think of the sheer volume of calls.

I wonder whether information about something that could be left at the CS, especially if unusual, could be released, but if the LE has a clear idea of who the perpetrator might be, it probably does not make any sense at this point in time as anything can jeopardize the case.
 
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