Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

[155etta]

DBM: Already posted.

 

[gregjrichards]

I’m so sorry that the fourth anniversary has been reached without an arrest. Abigail and Liberty, their loved ones and Delphi law enforcement continue to be in my thoughts and prayers today and every day. It is very difficult to not feel despondent about the fact this Monster has not been arrested yet but we should never give up hope. I still believe the Monster will be caught and Liberty’s recording will be used to help convict him in court. It will be a great day when that happens.

Thank you so much to all of you for continuing to hope and pray that justice will be done and for continuing to post in the girl’s thread.

Off topic: I hope you are all doing ok despite the extremely challenging time we are going through. Best wishes to you all.

 

[Rocky1]

I thought this article was pretty interesting.
Just to clarify on the parts of the article shown here...Harmon, is Rockne Harmon, a long time prosecutor in California, so part of what he is talking about is his experience on how DNA is used in California, not Indiana.
I thought it was interesting that he said Indiana is one of those states that does not do familial DNA. That answers some questions we had here on WS. The Tribune asked ISP about it and got no answer. I wondered why it took a California prosecutor and four years for a reporter to think that might be a good question to ask. Slack.
Personally, I think all they have is touch DNA and it will prove not so important, but it makes me wonder about the statements LE has said about doing everything they can. But there have been questions from the public about familial and genealogical DNA from the public for a long time and ISP knows Indiana doesn’t do that.
Just weird to me.

Carter and the rest of the ISP are all about Public relations. I couldn't believe the things he said during that press conference. They wanted everyone, including the killer to think they were on the door step of this guy, and in the end, he made fools out of LE.
Let's review..
Carter claimed this guy was between 18 and 40. Aren't most criminals?
Carter claimed this guy may be sitting right here in the room, then back pedaled the next day on a talk show saying he may have been close. What's close? 20 miles away having lunch at McDonalds?
Carter claimed that this guy may be from the area, worked in that area, or may frequent that area. Who found that hard to figure out?
A large presentation and an unveiling of a photograph that looks nothing like the first sketch and a message about how the killer didn't think they'd change their strategy. All that did was lower the confidence level the public had in reference to the ISP.
A cliffhanger throughout the presser about how they had new audio that may help crack the case.
"Guys."

 

[Rocky1]

I’m so sorry that the fourth anniversary has been reached without an arrest. Abigail and Liberty, their loved ones and Delphi law enforcement continue to be in my thoughts and prayers today and every day. It is very difficult to not feel despondent about the fact this Monster has not been arrested yet but we should never give up hope. I still believe the Monster will be caught and Liberty’s recording will be used to help convict him in court. It will be a great day when that happens.

Thank you so much to all of you for continuing to hope and pray that justice will be done and for continuing to post in the girl’s thread.

Off topic: I hope you are all doing ok despite the extremely challenging time we are going through. Best wishes to you all.

I am confident this case will be solved. What I don't believe is the ISP. will solve it. This case will be solved by someone in the general public that will drop a dime on this guy and contact LE. Not by anything the ISP does. They've had 4 years with all this "evidence" they claim to have, a picture of the guy, and I don't believe they are any closer to catching this creep than they were 4 years ago.
All MOO.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I thought this article was pretty interesting.
Just to clarify on the parts of the article shown here...Harmon, is Rockne Harmon, a long time prosecutor in California, so part of what he is talking about is his experience on how DNA is used in California, not Indiana.
I thought it was interesting that he said Indiana is one of those states that does not do familial DNA. That answers some questions we had here on WS. The Tribune asked ISP about it and got no answer. I wondered why it took a California prosecutor and four years for a reporter to think that might be a good question to ask. Slack.
Personally, I think all they have is touch DNA and it will prove not so important, but it makes me wonder about the statements LE has said about doing everything they can. But there have been questions from the public about familial and genealogical DNA from the public for a long time and ISP knows Indiana doesn’t do that.
Just weird to me.

Yet this article from 2018 says familial DNA was used in the April Tinsley case. Did the law change since that time? Would the technique possibly still be available to use, but results not legally admissible in court?

Delphi detectives working closely with investigators who cracked Fort Wayne cold case | Fox 59

 

[Tealgrove]

Sigh....he we are again. Another year gone by and BG is still out there.

I have this terrible feeling that LE has bungled this investigation. No proof, no nothing...just this horrible feeling.

I mean, how do you have audio and video and probably a lot more on that phone and we still haven't put this monster behind bars?

I just don't get it.

MOO

 

[Nancy1954]

I know this is a bit ridiculous, but has anybody considered the fact that in the video BG might be wearing a mask? It popped into my head last night, the skin on his face seems awfully lose and saggy IMO and for some reason I thought it could be a mask.

Just a hunch anyway and could be a part of a disguise if so. You can't see BG's neck either, it looks like he's covering it up. Just a brief thought and probably that's all it is. Imagine if BG was a prosthetic makeup artist or something so literally disguised how he looked!

I still don't get why he allowed himself to be filmed (he must've seen it in his periphery) but didn't destroy the girls' cellphones.

ALL MOO.

It has been a LONG time since I've been replying but I hope that this comes out right! I don't think it is ridiculous at all to think that BG was disguised, and part of his disguise was a mask. I have been saying exactly that from the very beginning of this case in fact. That is the reason I believe that he DID allow himself to be videotaped and not destroy the girls cell phones. MOO

 

[Falling Down]

I believe that LE claimed they had a lot of evidence at the crime scene because, as with so many other statements Carter made, they were bluffing in hopes the killer would give himself up.
The timeline, as you stated, just a little over an hour, is another reason this makes me think this wasn't planned. If this was planned, what exactly was the motive to kidnap and kill them? Just for kicks, or was it for sexual assault? If it was for sexual assault purposes, he didn't spend a lot of time doing that.
I may be wrong, but I doubt he was chasing them across the river. If he was, I'd think they would have ran in different directions making it hard to be captured. I believe he had control of them when they crossed the river.
I'm not saying that he didn't know the area. I am saying that I'm not convinced this wasn't a spur of the moment thing, because he boxed himself in. It was poor planning if it was planned in advance. If he did know the area, then why not wait till the girls walked back across the RR tracks, knowing they would have had to cross the river? He would have known they would have to walk back over the bridge to leave.
Why not just murder them there before crossing the river? Good question. I think it was because he intended on spending a lot more time with them and intended on taking them elsewhere, then panicked when he got closer to the road. Yes, his car may have been parked at the cemetery, he could have tied them in the car and drove out, but something made him change his mind imo.

Just bouncing my ideas off .

Why walk back across the bridge, which carried with it huge risks including being seen by other trail users?

The walk from the SE end of the bridge to the CS would have been under 4 minutes.

JMO

 

[JnRyan]

Delphi deaths, 4 years later

snipped from the article...

“You know our DNA offender database,” he said, “that’s been in place for over 20 years. You can get the evidence type, upload it in the state. If it doesn’t match anyone there, it gets uploaded to the national database … which is just a network of the state databases. … But [an exact match] only succeeds about 30% of the time. So about 70% of the time, cases get uploaded and end up matching nobody.

“Familial searching uses the same state offender database that police look for the direct match in,” Harmon added. “But it says, ‘OK, within Indiana, is there a close relative of the person who left the evidence in our state database?’”

Close relatives, Harmon noted, are limited to parent, child or full sibling in this case.

“Then I look at a profile and from the evidence can say, ‘Is that a father-son thing right there?’ Because you inherit half of your DNA from your father,” he said. “So which is it, the father or the son? … That’s what happened in the Grim Sleeper serial murder in L.A.”

Once they’ve honed in on a possible individual, Harmon said that investigators can then use tactics like getting DNA off of a drinking glass or a cigarette butt, even digging through someone’s trash, to locate the exact DNA that was found at a crime scene.

“It works,” Harmon said, “I’ve seen it.”

But Indiana is one of dozens of states whose state police labs don’t conduct familial DNA searching. The Tribune called ISP for answers as to why that’s the case but did not hear back as of press time.

“In order to be done, a state has to agree that it’s the right thing to do,” Harmon said. “And I guess no one’s ever said, ‘How come other states are doing them and you’re not?’ … The premise behind familial searching is that crime tends to run in families. So if you committed a crime, and you haven’t been caught yet, chances are pretty good that someone else close to you in your family committed a crime and are likely in a state database. That’s why something like this works.”

This prompts the same unanswered questions in my mind. So they have DNA or we can assume from some LE comments, is it a complete profile or enough of one to identify the killer or do a familial search? Or, if complete, do we have more than one unidentified DNA profile? Assuming a complete profile and Indiana labs don't do familial searches, has LE reached out to the FBI? Or a private group that has done this before? It's too late to submit questions, but if someone like myself has these questions then others must have the same questions as well. I hope they got submitted. Of course, the next step would be for LE to answer them and we've all had our speculations on that probability.

 

[TTF14]

I know this is a bit ridiculous, but has anybody considered the fact that in the video BG might be wearing a mask? It popped into my head last night, the skin on his face seems awfully lose and saggy IMO and for some reason I thought it could be a mask.

Just a hunch anyway and could be a part of a disguise if so. You can't see BG's neck either, it looks like he's covering it up. Just a brief thought and probably that's all it is. Imagine if BG was a prosthetic makeup artist or something so literally disguised how he looked!

I still don't get why he allowed himself to be filmed (he must've seen it in his periphery) but didn't destroy the girls' cellphones.

ALL MOO.

Well, a mask would explain all the confusion over the sketches and whether or not to keep looking at the video of BG. Look at his body/gait, but not his face....look at THIS face....

 

[steeltowngirl]

4 years

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Carter and the rest of the ISP are all about Public relations. I couldn't believe the things he said during that press conference. They wanted everyone, including the killer to think they were on the door step of this guy, and in the end, he made fools out of LE.
Let's review..
Carter claimed this guy was between 18 and 40. Aren't most criminals?
Carter claimed this guy may be sitting right here in the room, then back pedaled the next day on a talk show saying he may have been close. What's close? 20 miles away having lunch at McDonalds?
Carter claimed that this guy may be from the area, worked in that area, or may frequent that area. Who found that hard to figure out?
A large presentation and an unveiling of a photograph that looks nothing like the first sketch and a message about how the killer didn't think they'd change their strategy. All that did was lower the confidence level the public had in reference to the ISP.
A cliffhanger throughout the presser about how they had new audio that may help crack the case.
"Guys."

I was sucked in at that April 2019 press conference like a lot of people.
I have come to think now that it was nothing more than a carefully crafted drama put on for the benefit of the killer. The purpose was to put some pressure on the killer in hopes he would inadvertently show himself. It failed.
I’m not sure whether the info about a vehicle and the new sketch were entirely fiction but the fact we haven’t heard anything about a car...not from LE, not from rumor, no real discussion anywhere...and all the wishy washy statements about the sketch, make me wonder.

 

[JnRyan]

Carter and the rest of the ISP are all about Public relations. I couldn't believe the things he said during that press conference. They wanted everyone, including the killer to think they were on the door step of this guy, and in the end, he made fools out of LE.
Let's review..
Carter claimed this guy was between 18 and 40. Aren't most criminals?
Carter claimed this guy may be sitting right here in the room, then back pedaled the next day on a talk show saying he may have been close. What's close? 20 miles away having lunch at McDonalds?
Carter claimed that this guy may be from the area, worked in that area, or may frequent that area. Who found that hard to figure out?
A large presentation and an unveiling of a photograph that looks nothing like the first sketch and a message about how the killer didn't think they'd change their strategy. All that did was lower the confidence level the public had in reference to the ISP.
A cliffhanger throughout the presser about how they had new audio that may help crack the case.
"Guys."

At the time it was encouraging. It made me believe that an arrest would be imminent. Hope. Now I see this way, too.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Delphi murders remain unsolved ahead of four-year anniversary

 

[JnRyan]

I’m not sure whether the info about a vehicle and the new sketch were entirely fiction but the fact we haven’t heard anything about a car...not from LE, not from rumor, no real discussion anywhere...and all the wishy washy statements about the sketch, make me wonder.

Yes, what about that vehicle. Not much if anything from LE. We don't even know if it is a sedan, SUV, pickup or sports car.
If it is vital to the case why isn't it mentioned on the poster?
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/liberty-german/@@download.pdf

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I believe that LE claimed they had a lot of evidence at the crime scene because, as with so many other statements Carter made, they were bluffing in hopes the killer would give himself up.
The timeline, as you stated, just a little over an hour, is another reason this makes me think this wasn't planned. If this was planned, what exactly was the motive to kidnap and kill them? Just for kicks, or was it for sexual assault? If it was for sexual assault purposes, he didn't spend a lot of time doing that.
I may be wrong, but I doubt he was chasing them across the river. If he was, I'd think they would have ran in different directions making it hard to be captured. I believe he had control of them when they crossed the river.
I'm not saying that he didn't know the area. I am saying that I'm not convinced this wasn't a spur of the moment thing, because he boxed himself in. It was poor planning if it was planned in advance. If he did know the area, then why not wait till the girls walked back across the RR tracks, knowing they would have had to cross the river? He would have known they would have to walk back over the bridge to leave.
Why not just murder them there before crossing the river? Good question. I think it was because he intended on spending a lot more time with them and intended on taking them elsewhere, then panicked when he got closer to the road. Yes, his car may have been parked at the cemetery, he could have tied them in the car and drove out, but something made him change his mind imo.

Just bouncing my ideas off .

Good thoughts.
I tend to think the killer was lying in wait to a certain extent. Seeing if things lined up right for his crime.
I think the reason things went rather quickly and they ended up across the creek was because the girls bolted, not because the killer had no real plan. They spoiled his plans.
I do think he was probably parked at the cemetery, but I think he intended to walk back across the bridge to get there after killing the girls but chasing the girls put him across the creek.
No one has ever talk about where, on the south side of the bridge, he could possibly have been leading them to attack and kill them. I don’t even know if that’s possible. Is there a place on the south side?
Just my thoughts.

 

[Falling Down]

Good thoughts.
I tend to think the killer was lying in wait to a certain extent. Seeing if things lined up right for his crime.
I think the reason things went rather quickly and they ended up across the creek was because the girls bolted, not because the killer had no real plan. They spoiled his plans.
I do think he was probably parked at the cemetery, but I think he intended to walk back across the bridge to get there after killing the girls but chasing the girls put him across the creek.
No one has ever talk about where, on the south side of the bridge, he could possibly have been leading them to attack and kill them. I don’t even know if that’s possible. Is there a place on the south side?
Just my thoughts.

Unless he intended to take them upstream (east) on the south side, say a little ways onto the private property there, I'd say no.

Where the CS is located is just under 3/8 of a mile from the NW end of the bridge. Despite the fact that the terrain is fairly steep in spots along there, an adult in reasonable physical shape could have gotten away from the CS after the murders and been back to a vehicle within minutes.

There's been much talk about why this and that about crossing the creek, I think the killer figured the CS would be much more convenient for him, vs. a crime scene where he'd have to either A) Cross the creek then go through the woods, afterwards, or B) Re-cross the bridge. Both would carry huge risks of being seen, and would be more work on his part, vs. just forcing a victim or victims to go where he wanted them to, away from the bridge.

People have brought up the word "privacy" since early on in the investigation, and I have to agree. He needed some in order to carry this out. He needed a CS that couldn't be seen from the bridge and much of the gorge.

Edit:

If indeed he parked at the CPS building, much of what his walking paths looked like that day from above would resemble kind of a triangle shape. At least the paths on the trail, the bridge, and the gorge.

I've said it since early on in this case, "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line".

JMO

 

[3blue1pink]

1st time posting in this thread . Have they even had a presser this year ? Seems like LE is avoiding answering to anyone including the families . I mean these people have been waiting 4 years and they still don’t even know what happened to these girls . Something has got to give . As one of the mothers said “A fresh set of eyes would go a long way “ . I really think they need to focus on the gait . I can tell my husbands and fathers walk from a block away with only a few steps . You can say he was walking weirdly because of the state of the bridge but he was walking with purpose and with his hands in his pockets ... not good for balance . He’s been there before my guess is many times .

 

[TTF14]

1st time posting in this thread . Have they even had a presser this year ? Seems like LE is avoiding answering to anyone including the families . I mean these people have been waiting 4 years and they still don’t even know what happened to these girls . Something has got to give . As one of the mothers said “A fresh set of eyes would go a long way “ . I really think they need to focus on the gait . I can tell my husbands and fathers walk from a block away with only a few steps . You can say he was walking weirdly because of the state of the bridge but he was walking with purpose and with his hands in his pockets ... not good for balance . He’s been there before my guess is many times .

Welcome to the thread. No presser this year .

 

[Charlot123]

There are three videos fresh to YouTube. One is the Delphi related segment on tonight's CBS 4 news in Indianapolis, plus two Web extra videos. The interview subjects are former Carroll County Prosecutor Robert Ives and Jay Abbott, the retired special agent in charge of the FBI's Indianapolis division.

From the news segment, the highlight is that Ives believes more info should be released, saying after four years he believes the advantages to withholding have diminished, and there are greater advantages to releasing..."it might ring a bell." Ives concedes he is not an expert on the topic.

Ives' web extra is essentially an expanded version of his podcast interview from last year. Same themes. He says there was so much evidence at the scene, and the crime discovered so quickly, that even during the '60s without cell phones or DNA evidence everyone would have assumed it would be wrapped up in 2 or 3 days. Abbott hates to say it but he now believes this might not be solved until the murderer commits again, then confesses to Delphi. Identical to the podcast interview, Ives says in 2017 he initially believed it had to be local perpetrator. But since there doesn't appear to be any motivation for the murders, and they haven't been solved, Ives believes it could be..."a serial killer type of thing"..."a random act by someone who isn't around here all the time."

The Jay Abbott web extra had a yikes moment, at least for me. He begins by detailing the extraordinary manpower in the early days, more than 100 investigators working on the case. Then Abbott emphasizes what most impressed him when he visited the command center: They began the day with a prayer. He repeats how impressed he was with that.

I guess nobody has to wonder why Doug Carter has control and free reign. In fact, Abbott says he and his wife often get together for dinner with Carter and his wife.

Abbott says he is exasperated and frustrated. He is the first besides Ives to mention signature left at the scene, but he does so in singular tense. More than once he says signature and not signatures. Ives and Abbott may have varying interpretation. Abbott says things occurred and things were found at the crime scene that only the killer would know. He makes it clear the families have not been told about those aspects.

Difficult to listen to Jay Abbott in this video and cling to the conclusion that they know who did it. As I mentioned, Abbott remains tight with Carter. Abbott's emphasis near the end of the video is that they need somebody to come forward and provide the crucial tip..."There's someone out there who knows something, who knows the person, who knows something about the murder, that person is either afraid to come forward -- because they are fearful -- or maybe they even feel themselves being complicit in some way."

Abbott repeats the Ives theme that everyone assumed this would be solved quickly:

"...the numerous things that we had at our disposal, all the information and evidence that existed, it just boggles the mind..."

Now, tbh, i really like watching and listening to Ives speaking about the case. He has an analytical, if not to say, engineer's, mind, and his speech is very succinct. No excessive emotions, no extra information, just facts.

However, one thing that he says makes me wonder exactly the opposite. He said, there was no doubt that BG was responsible for the murders.

Thinking logically...

All we see is the man on the bridge with an odd gait. Unless the video extends (and we don't know what it shows), I am not a 100% sure that it is the same guy who approached the girls and marched them down the hill.

There were people around, maybe it is a passer-by. (It is another thing that the guy never came forward, but maybe he was an illegal alien from somewhere around?)

Maybe it is a red herring?

Maybe he wore a mask, and maybe one of the descriptions fits this guy (it is interesting how the sketches of the OBG and the NBG differ in the amount of details - really, I'd trust NBG sketch more because this is the same I would remember from a chance meeting with someone I didn't know).

At this point in time, I believe, the ISP has reached two dead ends, with two big cases. Maybe it is the result of being overwhelmed, because they have to do their daily job, too.

Really, it calls for two target groups, who will start from the very beginning. Before the murders.