Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Jerrod]

BBM
Too my knowledge, that was never said.
What was mentioned, is Abby asking Libby if the "creepy guy was still behind her"

Correct. As mentioned off & on over the years, this came directly from the early Facebook Q & A hosted by Becky Patty, along with Tara German. Some of us were online for that. Portions of the transcript have appeared here over the years. Here's an excerpt:

"Bridge is reportedly in quite bad condition; large adult-sized gaps in rotting rails. Not crossed without great caution and concentration. Wind was strong that day, and made crossing bridge more challenging than usual. Confirmed by hiker who crossed bridge around same time frame."

Question: "Did Libby and Abby go anywhere earlier in the day before heading to the bridge?"
Becky: "No."

Question: "Did Libby text Mike?"
Becky: "Libby did not text Mike saying some creep was following them - I searched phone records to confirm this - Mike does not use messenger or messages on Facebook. She was heard on audio she turned on as BG was spotted coming towards them, they were talking about that creepy guy they'd seen earlier."

Question: "Was Libby carrying a purse or clothing with pockets to carry her phone?"
Becky: "Had pockets in sweatpants."

 

[ReadySet]

Maybe the other girls weren't at the south end of the bridge? And if they were, he wasn't close enough to get to them?

Thanks @steeltowngirl
Agree and just to add--- An unhinged man not only walks by ten other men, but several other young girls and still goes after Abby and Libby
I just cant get past that... that bothers me
He saw them, he bypassed other young people there that day and went after them.

 

[sunshineray]

If there really were 50 people a day who visited that park and it was a nice day with no school why would this guy risk killing 2 people in broad daylight? Wouldn’t he worry someone would see him? That’s very risky. It really makes me wonder if he knew they were going to be there at that time and maybe scouted the area beforehand to see who else was around. He would have had to attempt to control as many of the variables of the situation as possible in order not to get caught. And four years later he still hasn’t.

According to that HLN discussion panel that was posted recently, in conjunction with the new Delphi Murders HLN show, someone approached another young girl that day on the trails. She was able to turn and go away from him after exchanging some words with him.

Maybe this interaction's demise spurred him on to look at Abby and Libby. Abby was a very petite young lady. It's possible that emboldened him?

This killer had to have known his environment very well to take such bold actions and I think he brandished a weapon which terrified the girls. Praying for justice for these two sweet children.

 

[Beachlife926]

Not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious - for anyone who still thinks the killings were targeted and not random after reading TL's answer in the Carroll County Comet last week - how do you reconcile his answer to the question "were the murders planned?" He said "Not planned. Victims of circumstance or opportunity."

To me, that would seem to rule anything targeted out. But I'm wondering, if you still believe it after reading his answer, why? Is he lying? Are we not correctly interpreting what he's saying? How does a targeted scenario still fit into that?

IMO
I think it’s possible they were targeted once BG realized they could be victims of circumstance or opportunity.
In my possible scenario, the girls asked other friends to join them as teenage girls might do, and someone overheard their plans (such as friends brother, brothers friend, etc.). Due to no school, the parents could’ve been at work and left the house up to the older kids (if someone needed a ride etc) so if he didn’t overhear then was asked.
Concerning your questions:
1) I still think it’s possible they were targeted even if it wasn’t planned (includes variety of scenarios)
2) I believe TL so I guess it’s an interpretation issue since I don’t think his comments rule out many additional scenarios (if any). We already knew they weren’t targeted due to SM, or internet. IMO besides lying and wait, most other scenarios include a combination of opportunity and target such as BG seeing the girls get dropped off then going in or one mentioned above.
ETA: I saw your updated post clarifying it’s only if we think it’s planned and targeted, as you can see I don’t. I may have missed them but haven’t saw any theories like that here once they find out it wasn’t a catfish or SM

 

[Charlot123]

I think we can safely say BG doesn't have vertigo. If that was me I would be on my belly pulling myself along crying for about a metre and then shuffling back again compounding my complete refusal to cross it.
I feel sick crossing metal motorway bridges with concrete and railings, nevermind a rotten bridge like the MHB.

They all did one right thing, though. They looked down. With the height, it is less the height itself and more the empty "Vista" that scares us. (Example: you feel totally OK at the 37th floor of the hotel. Now get outside on the balcony and tell me how you feel).

Why some people need additional "visionary input" to feel "on solid land", and others don't, is very interesting, but the advise to those panicking of the vistas is, look at something, don't leave the horizon empty.

In winter, no leaves, the height, probably many people felt scared on that bridge, and if you can't look at the trees, looking under your feet might help. Ties are objects, too.

In short, I would not discount people with fear of heights, they, too, can cross this bridge, it is where to look when crossing that matters.

 

[sunshineray]

Not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious - for anyone who still thinks the killings were targeted and not random after reading TL's answer in the Carroll County Comet last week - how do you reconcile his answer to the question "were the murders planned?" He said "Not planned. Victims of circumstance or opportunity."

To me, that would seem to rule anything targeted out. But I'm wondering, if you still believe it after reading his answer, why? Is he lying? Are we not correctly interpreting what he's saying? How does a targeted scenario still fit into that?

At 3:15 mark, when asked if the community was in immediate danger...

Sheriff's comments mentioned there was no ongoing danger and crimes were isolated to the victims...I think this is what led people to think maybe the girls were targeted. He says he didn't want large scale panic and people looking over their shoulders all the time, no way to live etc...

I myself find his words a bit cavalier considering two young girls had been brutally murdered in broad daylight on popular hiking trails used by all ages of the community. The residents of Delphi were traumatized and wanted the monster caught asap. Of course they would be panicked, on-edge and looking at everyone, thinking who had killed their children. For the Sheriff to expect otherwise seems unreasonable to me. AJMO

 

[Charlot123]

I hate how there is so much conflicting info about the trails and bridge! This event implies that many people know about the existence and location of the bridge. It might even be a tradition amongst local families and a fun, unique experience to take out of town visitors. Kelsi has said high school kids go there to hang out, Libby and Kelsi had been there several times. There was a woman who was interviewed on HLN’s DTH special who said Delphi was becoming a travel destination and she regularly got requests for maps of the trails. Some estimates put approximately 50 people there the day of the murder and 300-500 searchers that night and the following day, maybe more.

Yet we repeatedly hear that the bridge is hidden, locals don’t even know where it is, very few people go there, it’s very secluded. We’re told BG must be local to have any knowledge of the bridge and how to get in and out of the area.

It just doesn’t add up to me. And I wonder why there two very different versions out there.

I think there is a very good reason why they think he is a local, but they can't disclose it to us, and it has nothing to do with the bridge being poorly known. They know how he did it. And there is some trick there that we don't know, but they, LE, do. And they know how he made the escape route. And - they didn't know it in 2017, otherwise why pursue DN, but they found out in 2019. Simply paid attention to something. I don't know what it is, though. Simple logic. If in 2017 they were looking at DN, and in 2019, at locals, then, it is some knowledge gained in between.

 

[Charlot123]

In the case of Tampa serial killer Howell Donaldson III, 24: He was a young, good looking, polite, well-dressed, but quiet, recent college graduate who was a walk-on for his college basketball team in NY, but never played 1 game. When he graduated he worked at McDonalds. His victims were random, unrelated and unknown to him. 3 men, one woman. All shot while standing or walking alone on the street. Cops aren’t sure of his motive. Read the above. His motive’s right there.

He did not achieve what he set out to. Was disappointed with his life. No doubt struggling financially. F* the world mentality. But nobody is his orbit saw it, or even believed it once they knew.

He chose a neighbor he “didn’t have a link to,” but LE found one anyway on his cell phone. He had plans to leave the state before cops nabbed him.

I think BGs motive is similar. Angry at the world. Disappointed with his life. Seeking power thru killing innocent, unsuspecting people.

I don't know anymore. The case of YingYing Zhang taught me that I could not predict anything.

The man in whose car she got was: a Ph.D. in physics, handsome, married, had a GF on top of it. Nice, offered her a ride when she missed a bus.

And he raped and killed and dismembered her, in his apartment, when his wife was away.

When I imagine the Delphi girls' killer, I see him not unlike Brendt Christinsen.

Disappointed with his life? Yes, maybe not on his way to Nobel Prize, but he had a life, and a future! Struggling financially? Maybe, but all is relative. A nice car, and not on the street, sorry. Girls in his lab liked him. Zhang must have liked him, too, and trusted him.

Except for that Fetlife nothing else raises a flag, but even that flag is not a huge one as Fetlife could well be a crowded place.

So, not sure.

 

[Charlot123]

I wonder if they set this up to caught the guy. Make him sign up or get his IP.

Not sure. Brendt Christinsen was young enough and not totally dissociated from this world - he spoke about the murder to a GF and even boasted to be "a serial killer" (hero, anyone?).

This guy probably is a SK in the making, and he had been mentally far away from everyone for a long time. Of course he won't call the gazette.

 

[Charlot123]

Exactly. Imagine if all of the Christmas festival goers went out onto the bridge at once. COLLAPSE.

Seems the bridge is sturdier than we think

 

[Boxer]

Wow. This list has just gone to the top of my suspect list. 100%. Never heard this before. So many suspects. Were they taking them straight from the jails or from their homes or both? I wonder how closely they are monitored while at the plant. Could they sneak away for an hour or two?

Here is an article on it.

‘Wheels for Work’ ministry gives riders a second chance

 

[Ozoner]

Except for that Fetlife nothing else raises a flag, but even that flag is not a huge one as Fetlife could well be a crowded place.

So, not sure.

Fetlife is crowded with psychopathic sexual sadists. If I found out that someone I knew was on that site, I would ghost that person in a New York minute.
Most psychopaths never commit murder, but that's only because the urge never strikes them. None of them would give a second thought to killing if it advanced their personal goals.
Here in Detroit we had a BDSM guy, Bob Bashara, who paid a handyman to kill his wife a few years ago. (He just died in prison.)

 

[Boxer]

Thanks @steeltowngirl
Agree and just to add--- An unhinged man not only walks by ten other men, but several other young girls and still goes after Abby and Libby
I just cant get past that... that bothers me
He saw them, he bypassed other young people there that day and went after them.

If he passed others I would say that until the bridge the trail is basically on a narrow strip between the road and the edge of the creek embankment. MOO The chance of someone coming along would be very great.

 

[Barbieshell]

They all did one right thing, though. They looked down. With the height, it is less the height itself and more the empty "Vista" that scares us. (Example: you feel totally OK at the 37th floor of the hotel. Now get outside on the balcony and tell me how you feel).

Why some people need additional "visionary input" to feel "on solid land", and others don't, is very interesting, but the advise to those panicking of the vistas is, look at something, don't leave the horizon empty.

In winter, no leaves, the height, probably many people felt scared on that bridge, and if you can't look at the trees, looking under your feet might help. Ties are objects, too.

In short, I would not discount people with fear of heights, they, too, can cross this bridge, it is where to look when crossing that matters.

At the very least I would be walking looking down with my arms both extended for balance - but because of my fear I wouldn't cross due to the lack of railings and the potential that the wood would break under me and I would fall to my doom.
The main fear would be the bridge collapsing underneath me, just like it is when I walk over a concrete bridge - I even see it in my mind, it's a really weird feeling and very scary.

BG walked over it with his hands in his pockets rather nonchalantly, of course he was looking down as he knew some of the treads could be dodgy.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yep. Fake cop / security guard type thing I bet. Thanks for this.

"Fake cop" (perhaps!), but appearing in SWAT gear would have been a little too much and in any case inappropriate obviously?? (I think of MissyB/TX.)
I don't know, if there is a connection, but my thoughts are connecting these cases sometimes because of the senseless (?) blitz attack and the/a disguise in some form.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

At the very least I would be walking looking down with my arms both extended for balance - but because of my fear I wouldn't cross due to the lack of railings and the potential that the wood would break under me and I would fall to my doom.
The main fear would be the bridge collapsing underneath me, just like it is when I walk over a concrete bridge - I even see it in my mind, it's a really weird feeling and very scary.

BG walked over it with his hands in his pockets rather nonchalantly, of course he was looking down as he knew some of the treads could be dodgy.

My biggest fear would have been, while crossing the very high bridge, whether someone of the other visitors might push me off the bridge by chance. When I heard here on WS, actually it wasn't allowed, to enter the bridge, if someone other hadn't left already, I felt reassured somehow (re the girls).

 

[Shadowtrix]

The "fake security guard" scenario would make sense. Or perhaps he told them something along the lines of "my dog ran off" and asked for their help in looking for it? I've always gotten the feeling this may have been what happened when the "down the hill" audio was released. They could've been cornered at that point / creeped out by him and he could've flipped the switch and veered towards intimidation. All of this is JMO, of course.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Seems the bridge is sturdier than we think

How dare they to enter the bridge together with so many other people??? I can't understand their courage!
I believe, sometime BG was a participant of such event, incognito of course.

 

[Barbieshell]

At 3:15 mark, when asked if the community was in immediate danger...

Sheriff's comments mentioned there was no ongoing danger and crimes were isolated to the victims...I think this is what led people to think maybe the girls were targeted. He says he didn't want large scale panic and people looking over their shoulders all the time, no way to live etc...

I myself find his words a bit cavalier considering two young girls had been brutally murdered in broad daylight on popular hiking trails used by all ages of the community. The residents of Delphi were traumatized and wanted the monster caught asap. Of course they would be panicked, on-edge and looking at everyone, thinking who had killed their children. For the Sheriff to expect otherwise seems unreasonable to me. AJMO

Thinking on about those statements, they must have someone in mind that they're keeping an eye on - otherwise there would still be a danger to the public.......it's a pretty logical conclusion tbh......"1 piece away" etc etc, they just need to prove it in it's entirety I guess - fingers crossed they do it soon because the girls deserve justice and that murdering SOB needs to pay the price for what he did.

 

[stattlich1]

Not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious - for anyone who still thinks the killings were targeted and not random after reading TL's answer in the Carroll County Comet last week - how do you reconcile his answer to the question "were the murders planned?" He said "Not planned. Victims of circumstance or opportunity."

To me, that would seem to rule anything targeted out. But I'm wondering, if you still believe it after reading his answer, why? Is he lying? Are we not correctly interpreting what he's saying? How does a targeted scenario still fit into that?

I tend strongly to trust LE. I actually worked with local LE on numerous matters over the years, even side by side with the Sheriff's son (for quite some time). I am a strong supporter

That being said, I've learned LE is not always the most knowledgeable in all domains, they are human too. On occasion, I had LE come to me to read graffiti for instance, as they could not make out the meaning, or what was being portrayed. They would come to me to assist in identification, to explore internet evidence, and other things.

With regard to this case, it is clear to me that mistakes were made early on. I'm putting no blame. I think LE was actually led away from the true investigative strategy they should have been on. Were they duped? Possibly. Who really knows?

Speaking of 'twists'. Have there not been a few 'twists' in terms of the investigation in to this murder? Might there be more 'twists' in the future. Paths that were taken, then shown to be in error?

For me, it is evidence that this investigation is an evolving process. For the most glaring example, LE stated as fact BG1 sketch was of the man being sought, then BG2 sketch came on the scene. Would one be able, as a result, to say that LE was wrong in their pursuit of BG1? Was the public not shown one thing, told one thing, yet it was found to be in error?

This case is not solved. LE seeks evidence. I think we agree the evidence they seek is such that it would either name the killer, or be undeniable in it's link to the killer, or prove who is in fact, the killer.

Possibly, LE knows who the killer is, and as a result, the comments made regarding circumstance/opportunity. Yet I ask, what if a shred of evidence comes to light that shows the connection?

Would there ever be a circumstance where LE would put out information contrary to truth to assist in the apprehension of a murderer?

Were it known to locals these, or one of these, girls were targeted by this killer, might that be enough reason to keep such information from the public?

I have been privy to some LE investigative strategies and tactics. Working with, and knowing, an undercover drug task force agent, looking like one person in real life, and a totally different person while on the job. Is that not deception of a kind?

I'm not on the wagon with those who think these girls were lured to the bridge. However, I do reserve the possibility that they were murdered, or possibly one of them was targeted, for a reason.

MOO