Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[stattlich1]

That cigarette butt I see mentioned, that could have been tossed by one of the hundreds who tramped all over that area searching for the girls. Unless I missed the piece where it's proven to be a butt from the killer.

I imagine searchers could have been in that cemetery, or not.

I sense the evening of the day of the murders, when the 'official' search was called off, that there were numerous folks tramping around the trails, and the bridge. However, I've always sensed they most likey did not venture across the creek. With that in my mind, I doubt they were coming in from the cemetery side at that stage of the search. In fact, I doubt searchers were in that cemetery at all.

I'll add, I've always had a problem with believing the killer walked back out that trail, along that road to that abandoned CPS building, in broad daylight, after he murdered these two girls. I just can't see him doing that.

MOO

 

[TL4S]

I don't think he put up cams either, but he came prepared. The common thought is that he had at least a gun to control them, a weapon to kill them other than a gun (no shots heard that we know of) maybe even a stun gun to get control of one of the girls so he could deal with the other. His jacket is full, you can see it. What's in the fanny pack? So I do think he was hunting that day. He most likely had hunted before but didn't get his victim, that day it lined up for him. JMO

I do agree he could have had a gun, but I tend to think having one in his vehicle wasn't unusual for him. I've always wondered if maybe one of the things that was odd about the scene was that he had to improvise with what he had available to commit the crimes.

 

[ReadySet]

News.com au is an Australian news site that focuses on entertainment.
If I wanted to read about missing Australian boy William Tyrrell, I wouldn't depend on US sites, I would find out what the credible and most factual Australian sites were.

New clues in chiling case of young girls who filmed their killer on iconic bridge

"he passed the girls on the bridge"??? I had never read / heard this before, but it makes more sense that it would have gone down this way! If he passed them on the bridge, it might just be that he told the girls to follow him because their route was unsafe and he'd show them a safe way back!? What made her "recognize they were in danger" and caused her to start recording?

 

[ReadySet]

Yes, or maybe the profile of BG indicated that Carter would be exactly the right person to send a message.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Thinking about what happened at the end of the trail, I noticed in this screen cap from JM's video that there seems to be a little clearing on the right at the end of the bridge. See where the gravel curves to the right, then that leaf-covered area?

I think the natural inclination for BG would have been to move over to the left at the end of the bridge but the girls were there; so maybe they crossed the path to that little clearing to give him room to pass. However, once there, they were trapped. He could have been non-threatening until he was right in front of them.

 

[Beachlife926]

But they had a "no school day", and it was unusually warm winter day. I would think that changed the numbers a little bit. I heard about 50 people that day, but again, when did they arrive, or leave. Ebb and flow. Either way, no one saw what he did. So sad.

It’s sad how many risks he took and everything worked out for him.
IMO
I’m not great at putting my thoughts to writing so sorry for the confusion. My original post I was thinking that due to the consistent “usually a little busy” at 2pm on weekdays, it could be a possibility BG was on his lunch break.
The trail system is so big that he could’ve had a stash hidden somewhere to pull out when he wanted to. Adding to this a little more, it’s possible when he saw the witness he didn’t yet have his stash but did have it when he saw the girls. What if the witness was an original target ?
It could be anything but reminded me of when we use to walk the trails during lunch.

 

[ReadySet]

Yes, or maybe the profile of BG indicated that Carter would be exactly the right person to send a message.

 

[Falling Down]

Yes, that’s what I’m thinking. I was leaning towards the bridge as being part of a predetermined homicide site but now I’m beginning to wonder if instead it was a case of him hunting for a vulnerable victim (or two) in any part of the 10 mile historic trail system, anywhere that afforded a certain amount of privacy with nobody around. And he just happened to have walked toward the NE end of it that day and unfortunately Libby and Abby just happened to be there too. Fantasies don’t involve homicide at one sole location, particularly not if he is or has the potential of becoming a serial killer.

At the lowest point of the sand bar iirc it’s been said the water was only a few inches deep so he wouldn’t have been wet from head to toe, had he walked out to any place he parked his car. If LE knew he’d been cut or scratched then a full DNA profile would not be in doubt.

He could’ve been long gone at least 1/2 hour before the pickup time if, as ISP have said, the killings occurred within minutes of the video. I can’t think of how they’d know that other than cellphone audio recordings. But still, there’s much we don’t know and those questions won’t be answered until an arrest and trial occurs, adding into the picture the “who”. Soon, I hope.

JMO

Correct, LE know much more than we know.

That said, I'd imagine the murders happened within mere minutes of the abduction from the SE end of the bridge. It's only roughly 500 feet from there to the CS, give or take.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

When reviewing a location on google it informs you of the “popular times”. While looking at “Monon High Bridge Trail” the busiest times are the following for a Monday:
10am: usually a little busy
11am-2pm: usually not too busy
2pm-4pm: usually a little busy
4pm-6pm: usually not too busy
6pm-9pm: usually not busy

It was similar for other days too (except Tuesday, the more busy times were 12/1pm and Thursday at 4pm). All week days had the 2pm hour as “usually a little busy”.
IMO
My old job had a trail system nearby so during our lunch break people would often walk the trails and I assume show that location as busy since we all took our lunch at the same time. I wonder if any businesses in the area regularly take their lunch breaks during the more busy hours and are close enough to drive/walk to trail system.

I was there, alone, October 11th, mid and late afternoon time. A Sunday.

Parked at the parking area across IN 25. A bunch of vehicles were parked there, which surprised me. I saw maybe 3 or 4 people milling about on that side of the highway, as there is a recently-improved section of trail west of the Freedom Bridge. I try to keep in mind the trail system along there is a 'work in progress', it was terribly overgrown and impassible up until 2012 or so, before the highway was put through. Off of that trail is an historical marker for the Milroy family, who were some of the earliest settlers of that part of Carroll County.

Between the Freedom Bridge and the intersection of the two trails where the girls were dropped off nearby, and down into the gorge on the Girard Trail, I saw maybe 20 people. Families, mostly, two Mennonite families, an older couple on the Girard Trail, etc. I walked down the Girard Trail, first, before walking to the MHB. I passed the older couple, after that I saw no other human on my way to the creek bed.

Walking back up from the creek was eerie. Nobody else was around, I heard birds and maybe some small animals doing their thing. Got on to the main trail and walked towards the bridge, again, no one was around. Just me and nature.

Point being, even on a beautiful Autumn day, and despite there being some traffic out there at the MHB, you will find yourself alone like I did, depending on the timing of your visit.

JMO

 

[news buff]

In satellite map views I have seen, the leaves were all on the trees so the parking area is not really that visible. If you search for "Mary Gerard Nature Reserve" on Google Maps, I believe you can see a fairly close representation to where the drop off area is, directly across from Mears farm. I'll attach a picture.

Thank you.

 

[news buff]

Go to the following website, type in Delphi, IN, then zoom out a wee bit. Follow Deer Creek to the right of the screen until you recognize where you want to be. Click the "Aerials" tab at the upper left, then choose year 2005, then zoom in.

Historic Aerials: Viewer

FYI, if you hit the "compare" tab, then choose "transparency" (the bottom block on the window that opens), two tab lists appear, one on either side of the map. You can then choose what year on the left you want, and what year on the right you want, and use the slider up top to move back and forth between the two dates.

That is a wonderful site. Thanks.

 

[Beachlife926]

I was there, alone, October 11th, mid and late afternoon time. A Sunday.

Parked at the parking area across IN 25. A bunch of vehicles were parked there, which surprised me. I saw maybe 3 or 4 people milling about on that side of the highway, as there is a recently-improved section of trail west of the Freedom Bridge. I try to keep in mind the trail system along there is a 'work in progress', it was terribly overgrown and impassible up until 2012 or so, before the highway was put through. Off of that trail is an historical marker for the Milroy family, who were some of the earliest settlers of that part of Carroll County.

Between the Freedom Bridge and the intersection of the two trails where the girls were dropped off nearby, and down into the gorge on the Girard Trail, I saw maybe 20 people. Families, mostly, two Mennonite families, an older couple on the Girard Trail, etc. I walked down the Girard Trail, first, before walking to the MHB. I passed the older couple, after that I saw no other human on my way to the creek bed.

Walking back up from the creek was eerie. Nobody else was around, I heard birds and maybe some small animals doing their thing. Got on to the main trail and walked towards the bridge, again, no one was around. Just me and nature.

Point being, even on a beautiful Autumn day, and despite there being some traffic out there at the MHB, you will find yourself alone like I did, depending on the timing of your visit.

JMO

Thank you for sharing.

I was pointing out the trails are “usually a little busy” during the 2pm hour, every weekday. One possibility is certain local businesses could take their lunch break during that hour (including BG) where it’s close enough to go to trails everyday. As I said in my original post, my whole office took their break at the same time and going to the trails was common. I’m sure it showed up as “usually a little busy” during that hour even though we hardly saw each-other on the tiny trail system we had.
IMO If BG went to the trails most lunch breaks, he could’ve been building up a plan in his head, maybe even had a stash and was ready when the time came

 

[MistyWaters]

I would guess the railroad bridge to be greater than 8 and half feet wide.

The standard railroad ties dimensions and most used are 7” (in) x 9” (in) x 8.5’ (feet). Some other dimensions are also in use, those are 7” (in) x 8” (in) x 8.5’ (feet) ; 6” (in) x 8” (in) x 8.5’ (feet).

https://trainconductorhq.com/railroad-tie-dimensions/

Yes but the entire width isn’t walkable because the two ties that once supported the rails were still in place. I can’t imagine anyone walking on the outside edge to let someone pass considering there’s no railings.

IIRC it was part of the Wabash so the gauge (space) between the rail ties is only 4 feet and 8 1/2 inches, if this info is correct.
Wabash Railroad - Wikipedia

 

[JudgeJudi]

I drove the perimeter road at the cemetery in 2017 and added BG parking there to my theory about what he was up to before the murders. A sedan or other car, not a truck or SUV, could be at the back of the cemetery where it slopes down some and not be seen from C.R. 300. That said, I'm of the opinion BG planned to park his vehicle where others wouldn't park next to it.

So it makes sense he may have parked at the now gone CPS building. His only other choices would have been to park at the cemetery, the spot where the girls were dropped off, or across IN 25 where most people park. I parked there in October, you park there then walk over 25 via the Freedom Bridge to get to the Monon Trail which leads to the bridge. IMO he wanted to park where people would be just driving by and not paying attention to a vehicle parked off a lightly-traveled road like C.R. 300.

JMO

I'm so glad you posted this. Last night before I went to bed (Oz time) I created the following and you're just the person to offer an opinion.

Has anyone considered that BG may have walked to the MHB starting at the Freedom Bridge?

Julie Melvin has previously done videos for Gray Hughes but she now has her own YT channel.

Here’s her video of that walk. It was obviously filmed at a different time of year. She states underneath the video that she started where the first eyewitness saw BG entering the trail “walking fast” like he was on a mission. At 1:45 you’ll see a bench to the left of the trail and there are more at 2:55 and 4:50. At 7:00 she enters a gate in a metal fence with a “private property” sign. The entire trail is level walking. At 10:10 you’ll see a red barrier with crosses and 13 secs. later she’s at the start of the MHB. The entire walk took 10:20.

I believe there’s a car parking area at the Freedom Bridge but as we know, he could have parked in the abandoned CPS building lot or somewhere between the two. Do you think BG may have entered the trail system at the FB but departed via the cemetery? Those who have visited the area are sure to have an opinion on this.

The second video is only 1:32 and shows the drive into the cemetery. Julie points to an overgrown area that you could previously back into and your car would be hidden from the road. She reaches the fence of RL’s property and indicates the direction where the girls were found way down the ravine. RL’s house is visible from the fence.

I'm still a few pages behind but several people have been discussing the exit or entrance to the area near the cemetery. They'll probably find it especially interesting regarding where BG may have parked his car.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I was once pretty sure that he covered the bodies with leaves and that's why they weren't seen. But then, we are told that the person looking at deer looked down and saw the bodies.

Was it the person on the bridge side who saw the deer or was it someone on the other side of the creek?

Kelsi said in the Infamous Indy podcast

"

Around 7:30 in the morning we had all went back out to search.

…

Three of us chose to cross the bridge to look underneath the bridge on the opposite side.

Um, and that’s where I ended up hearing that we found the bodies.

...

I was standing on the trail that’s right under the bridge looking out into the woods and somebody yelled up that they had found a shoe.

And when they had found the shoe they had asked what kind of shoes the girls were wearing, and they yelled up the type of shoe that Libby was wearing. So I yelled down and told them that.

Actually then the person that had asked that had put up their phone and saw two deer in the ground moving. And so he was looking to see what it might be, and he saw two deer standing up there, and when he saw them, he moved the camera down, and that’s when we found them."

 

[Sillybilly]

Sleuthing or discussing RSOs just because they are on the registry is not allowed. There are sex offenders everywhere and unless there is a known connection to this case, or LE indicates there may be some connection, please don't bring them into this discussion.

 

[JudgeJudi]

That publication is from Australia. Doubtful they’d be reporting breaking “new” news. Plus what already is known, they don’t have entirely correct -
“The girls were due to be collected by Libby’s grandfather Mike Patty, her legal guardian, in the trail car park at 3.15pm, but failed to show up.”

Terrible reporting. Libby's father, Derrick, was supposed to pick them up, and he rang Libby at 3:11 to tell her to start heading towards the trailhead as he'd be there in in a minute or two.
Libby's grandfather, Mike Patty, was as work at the time and Becky rang him at approx. 4:00 to let him know that Libby wasn't answering her phone.

 

[JudgeJudi]

*Please somebody help me with the source before we get carried away with this, but didn't family say the searcher spotted L's tie-dye shirt with the phone zoom? I could be mistaken.*JMO

She was last seen wearing a tie-dyed shirt with fringe at the bottom, gray sweat pants with unknown black lettering and black Nike shoes.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...-missing-after-being-dropped-off-to-go-hiking

 

[Awsi Dooger]

That’s the most likely scenario I can think of because passing someone on that bridge would scare the daylights out of most people, especially if it were a stranger. All it would take is a sharp nudge and the river or tree tops are 60 feet down below.

You described perfectly. It is not a passing bridge. That should have been the first consideration before the <modsnip> U turn theory. I'm a 6-3 guy but if someone attempted to pass me on that bridge I would drop down to pushup position and brace myself on the planks. I wouldn't care how stupid it looked.

Regarding the bridge usually busy at 2 PM on weekdays, again I would thrill to wager on the under. Make it 2.5 people and it's stealing to wager on the under. But I realize this is an argument I can't win on the internet. Somehow everyone prefers to believe this is a popular local park with businesses of all types encouraging their employees to dash over there. Meanwhile there are no businesses nearby except the Anderson plant. The highway essentially cut the town in half and Monon High Bridge is on the empty half, the difficult to reach half.

Picture empty trails and you nail the reality 90% of the time

 

[Deleted member 102539]

When reviewing a location on google it informs you of the “popular times”. While looking at “Monon High Bridge Trail” the busiest times are the following for a Monday:
10am: usually a little busy
11am-2pm: usually not too busy
2pm-4pm: usually a little busy
4pm-6pm: usually not too busy
6pm-9pm: usually not busy

It was similar for other days too (except Tuesday, the more busy times were 12/1pm and Thursday at 4pm). All week days had the 2pm hour as “usually a little busy”.
IMO
My old job had a trail system nearby so during our lunch break people would often walk the trails and I assume show that location as busy since we all took our lunch at the same time. I wonder if any businesses in the area regularly take their lunch breaks during the more busy hours and are close enough to drive/walk to trail system.

So even the busy- and non-busy-times BG could have learned by looking on Google - I didn't know that! For that he also hadn't to be a local, I notice.