Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Charlot123]

Is there anyone else, besides myself, that analyzed his gait pattern?
I am a physical therapy doctor and I specialize in neurological rehabilitation.
I understand that this bridge appears to be very uneven, does anyone know if it is sloped at a decline towards the left?
Regardless of the structure of the bridge I believe that this man has very distinct gait characteristics. BG demonstrates a stepparent gait pattern with increased hip flexion on the right that is not evident on the left, he also appears to shift his weight over his left side when the right limb is stepping forwards. I have analyzed this video with great detail. What this kind of gay pattern suggests is some sort of neurological event that occurred in his past. I know that people are saying that he’s likely around 40 years of age which usually isn’t a common age to have suffered from a stroke . But I’m this gait pattern could be a result of a variety of
Spinal cord impairments as well. Even something as simple as bad low back pain and dysfunction.

I’m hoping others with expertise in gait analysis like
myself will continue to look into this as it could provide important information into the BG’s past that may help distinguish BG from others

Thank God, a PT Doctor is posting it now... I have mentioned steppage and linked YouTube videos as early as in 2019. At 2019 PC, DC said that the gait was due to the “structure of the bridge”. I still have my doubts. BG lifts one thigh rather high; one doesn’t need it to navigate the slope, one needs it to compensate for the foot drop. But we don’t know how they processed the film, and whether they cut out portions of it, thus creating odd gait? Or maybe, whatever was hidden under the jeans (a weapon?) was long enough to create oddity of the gait.
@MegPTdoc, do you see some outlook, some shape, on his R foot, under jeans? Could it be braces, what do you think?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Does anyone know where I can view Kelsi’s live stream on July 9, 2019?
It’s listed in articles on the media thread but when I click the link it says the video is now private. Interesting IMO

The following posts outline what was said:

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

and

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

I have an opinion as to why the video is now private but am not prepared to discuss it.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I also think it's quite possible he was not hunting for a victim that day at all, but he saw them at whatever point and for whatever reason wanted to engage them. I don't think it necessarily took planning to corner them there, either, but I bet he knew he could if they crossed the bridge, because he was familiar.

This is JMO, and it's only me guessing at random, but I don't think he planned or prepared a kill site, hung trail cams, scoped out the trail for victims, stuffed his jacket full of fantasy items, or any other pre-mediated activity. I don't know why I think that, but I do. There's just as good a chance he did any of those things as not, but I can't see it.

I think in the space between the south end of the bridge and the creek, he got control and started his attack. I'm guessing L's shoe and phone and whatever else might have been lost during a struggle on the south side and whatever caused him to decide to take them across the creek was maybe an impulsive move to get them all out of sight. Or the girls ran that way. I don't know. If he left signatures, I think they were likely manifestations of his heightened state in that moment, and if things were "odd" it's because he's odd in his mentality, anyway. JMO

bbm
I wonder, why BG should have thought, the girls were cornered at the end of the bridge? They weren't, if they hadn't had a problem with trespassing in the recent past. Did BG know of the disput, Libby had had with a property owner before? If so: WHY did he know of that?
BG's attack did start in some form on the bridge already. I remember, LE saying, that the "criminal action" began on the bridge, when Libby took the video. But of course: you are not wrong with your wording.

 

[Charlot123]

Ok, now I wonder, what made the deer move? How close were the deer to the bodies? This might be super important because to my knowledge, deer do not eat carrion and are fairly weary of humans. I wonder, was some sort of attractant left near the bodies to entice animals to visit the scene? That is probably far fetched - but otherwise, how likely is it the deer would go near a scene that may have smelled like human activity or... unpleasant to wildlife? So how close were the deer to the bodies?

A very interesting question. From my own experience with deers who basically lived in my backyard for a year due to developers’ activity -

they are not the smartest of animals. They are curious and easily scared, but unless there is an unpleasant smell, they probably won’t realize that the body is dead. They likely won’t approach anything unknown to them, but they are scared by movement.

They are attracted by different smells and eat various products; they love rose petals (rose oil?), so, maybe, other flowers, too?

In winter, they are seriously lacking salt, so anything salty would attract them, big-time.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes, or maybe the profile of BG indicated that Carter would be exactly the right person to send a message.

Perhaps of all the officials DC felt, he was the most betrayed by BG; so he had a special reason to give the BG a conscience.

 

[Charlot123]

One set of footprints could also mean the girls took a different path, as would happen if there were two predators working together, one initially confronting them on the south side of Deer Creek and then driving them toward the other on the north side and the other capturing or hunting them as they came in his direction.

I wonder if one set was created by him crossing the creek upon return. That would make his feet muddy and leave footprints. Maybe on February 13th, a warm day, it was dry, too, so neither the BG nor the girls left the traces. But if “the other one” had to cross the creek on his way back and go up the hill, then, yes.

I can’t see much from BG’s shoes on the bridge, but they look clean to me.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I do agree he could have had a gun, but I tend to think having one in his vehicle wasn't unusual for him. I've always wondered if maybe one of the things that was odd about the scene was that he had to improvise with what he had available to commit the crimes.

A gun or no gun, in any case some tools - reminds pretty much of the same mistery around the MissyB case. I have to mention it from time to time ....

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If he left signatures, I think they were likely manifestations of his heightened state in that moment, and if things were "odd" it's because he's odd in his mentality, anyway. JMO

^^ This.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes, that’s what I’m thinking. I was leaning towards the bridge as being part of a predetermined homicide site but now I’m beginning to wonder if instead it was a case of him hunting for a vulnerable victim (or two) in any part of the 10 mile historic trail system, anywhere that afforded a certain amount of privacy with nobody around. And he just happened to have walked toward the NE end of it that day and unfortunately Libby and Abby just happened to be there too. Fantasies don’t involve homicide at one sole location, particularly not if he is or has the potential of becoming a serial killer.

At the lowest point of the sand bar iirc it’s been said the water was only a few inches deep so he wouldn’t have been wet from head to toe, had he walked out to any place he parked his car. If LE knew he’d been cut or scratched then a full DNA profile would not be in doubt.

He could’ve been long gone at least 1/2 hour before the pickup time if, as ISP have said, the killings occurred within minutes of the video. I can’t think of how they’d know that other than cellphone audio recordings. But still, there’s much we don’t know and those questions won’t be answered until an arrest and trial occurs, adding into the picture the “who”. Soon, I hope.

JMO

I think, it's all depending on, if BG had an accomplice or not. IF he had one, he couldn't have strolled along the trails or the bridge or where ever; he must have made an arrangement beforehand with the second person. IMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

We don't need to guess about this - early on in the investigation LE did not know how the killer left, and they still don't know to this very day! Check out TL's words to the reporter in episode 10 of Down the Hill, this comes at minute 10:14:

Reporter: "Do you know for certain which way this killer left?"
TL: "I guess the way I’ll respond to that is, there is speculation but nothing factual developed at this point."

See also this exchange from the Carroll County Comet Q&A with TL:
Q. Are there regrets about not securing the Morning Heights Cemetery as a possible part of the crime scene (i.e. possible exit route of the killer(s)?
A. At the time, it was uncertain exactly what the “totality of the circumstances” were.

Well, we don't have to guess, because it would be without a final result atm. BUT didn't someone of LE said now, they know the whole expiration EXCEPT the tiny middle part?

 

[Andreee]

Unfortunately the paragraph before states it was speculation and not from LE:
“DTH speculates the man rehearsed his plan, walked the route and was ready to act whenever suitable victims appeared.
He passed the girls on the bridge, then turned back and when the girls noticed him walking back in their direction, Libby started recording.
Gaining control of them with a knife or gun, he forced them to turn northward – and down the hill.”

I'm wondering how wide the bridge was, does anyone know? All along I've thought that he must've just followed across the bridge from the get-go, and speed up to catch up to them. But some do think he passed by them on the bridge, and I just think that would be tricky to do. HArd to say!

On this link flick the top photo to the second one. The bridge is not very wide at all. I think if he started approaching from the NW while the girls were on the bridge deck the logical option for them would be to walk SE ahead of him, even if they’d never intended to go the full length of the bridge. If so, I’d suppose they expected him to just turn around once he got to the end and walk back to the trails. Then they could cross back after he was gone.

That’s the most likely scenario I can think of because passing someone on that bridge would scare the daylights out of most people, especially if it were a stranger. All it would take is a sharp nudge and the river or tree tops are 60 feet down below.

Sponsor, donors sought to turn trestle into trail crossing

Thanks, and yes, I too do not think they passed him on the bridge. That photo actually makes it look quite wide, lol, but most other photos do not. It would not be a safe thing to do!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I had a thought that maybe he put up trail cams (possibly post mortem) and sat back and watched it unfold live or relived it later on. I wonder if he did that if he could watch it live from a remote location? He might wonder if police ever found his trail cam. My understanding is they can be super well concealed and you wouldn't notice them unless you were right on top of them sometimes.

Maybe some installation, which gives a view from above? Idk, if that is possible.

 

[Boxer]

I also think it's quite possible he was not hunting for a victim that day at all, but he saw them at whatever point and for whatever reason wanted to engage them. I don't think it necessarily took planning to corner them there, either, but I bet he knew he could if they crossed the bridge, because he was familiar.

This is JMO, and it's only me guessing at random, but I don't think he planned or prepared a kill site, hung trail cams, scoped out the trail for victims, stuffed his jacket full of fantasy items, or any other pre-mediated activity. I don't know why I think that, but I do. There's just as good a chance he did any of those things as not, but I can't see it.

I think in the space between the south end of the bridge and the creek, he got control and started his attack. I'm guessing L's shoe and phone and whatever else might have been lost during a struggle on the south side and whatever caused him to decide to take them across the creek was maybe an impulsive move to get them all out of sight. Or the girls ran that way. I don't know. If he left signatures, I think they were likely manifestations of his heightened state in that moment, and if things were "odd" it's because he's odd in his mentality, anyway. JMO

MOO this crime always has reminded me of shoplifting. Impulsive but observant guessing (correctly) he could gean two girls and no one would notice. A gun made compliance easier, and a stroke of luck, the further girl didn't run for help.
As for odd, have no idea what that might mean.

 

[Barbieshell]

Forgive my rather crappy drawing but I wondered if when they were directed "down the hill" could it have been the other way.......

I'm not sure if my X is in the right place as to where the girls were found, but if he'd taken them round that way would that mean they didn't cross the creek at all ?

 

[Yemelyan]

Well, we don't have to guess, because it would be without a final result atm. BUT didn't someone of LE said now, they know the whole expiration EXCEPT the tiny middle part?

DC said in Down the Hill that they knew what happened at the beginning and at the end but not in the middle. I don't think anyone can claim they know exactly what he meant by these vague terms (is the beginning when he approached them? When he first saw them walking? When he got in his car to drive to the trails?) but "the end" could be just the murders, not how the individual left the area.

 

[Yemelyan]

Forgive my rather crappy drawing but I wondered if when they were directed "down the hill" could it have been the other way.......

I'm not sure if my X is in the right place as to where the girls were found, but if he'd taken them round that way would that mean they didn't cross the creek at all ?

I don't believe the way you've drawn this map is accurate with respect to the position of the crime scene or the orientation of the bridge/Deer Creek.

 

[TL4S]

bbm
I wonder, why BG should have thought, the girls were cornered at the end of the bridge? They weren't, if they hadn't had a problem with trespassing in the recent past. Did BG know of the disput, Libby had had with a property owner before? If so: WHY did he know of that?
BG's attack did start in some form on the bridge already. I remember, LE saying, that the "criminal action" began on the bridge, when Libby took the video. But of course: you are not wrong with your wording.

You're right in that they were not strictly cornered, but they were cornered in the sense that they had no easy way back to where they had come from. He probably took the chance they wouldn't sense danger until he was basically on top of them, anyway. I still say that if at any point the situation had changed (like if they took off before he reached them), he knew he could walk away.

As for the south end of the bridge, I guess the "criminal activity" is obviously abduction. But I have to wonder if instead of it being his plan to march them across the creek and attack them on the north bank, maybe he actually started the attack on the south side below the bridge. JMO. I don't think he even cared about the risk of being seen in that moment. It all changed when one or both of the girls went running toward the creek, or BG decided things needed to go differently and out of view, or some other occurance happened to make him decide then to cross. It's just a possibility in my mind. I don't know that it's likely, but it's one guess.

 

[Barbieshell]

I don't believe the way you've drawn this map is accurate with respect to the position of the crime scene or the orientation of the bridge/Deer Creek.

I never said it was accurate, I just wanted to know what peoples thoughts are to them going down the hill the opposite way. Perhaps someone could draw a more accurate but basic sketch.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Thinking about what happened at the end of the trail, I noticed in this screen cap from JM's video that there seems to be a little clearing on the right at the end of the bridge. See where the gravel curves to the right, then that leaf-covered area?

I think the natural inclination for BG would have been to move over to the left at the end of the bridge but the girls were there; so maybe they crossed the path to that little clearing to give him room to pass. However, once there, they were trapped. He could have been non-threatening until he was right in front of them.

Sorry for quoting my own post; it was supposed to have this image with it. If they moved over, he could have taken charge of them pretty easily.

 

[TL4S]

I never said it was accurate, I just wanted to know what peoples thoughts are to them going down the hill the opposite way. Perhaps someone could draw a more accurate but basic sketch.

I might be crazy, but my thought is that taking them down the opposite direction (southwest off the south end of the bridge) would actually be the direction he might have taken them had he planned it all out. At least it would have avoided a creek crossing. Jmo.

But while I'm unconvinced that we know the true locations of the bodies, it does seem they were on the north side of the creek based on police activity and tape.