Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Yemelyan]

I never said it was accurate, I just wanted to know what peoples thoughts are to them going down the hill the opposite way. Perhaps someone could draw a more accurate but basic sketch.

I'm not trying to criticize your drawing skills. But the way you drew the map is inaccurate, which led you to inaccurate possibilities.

Why not just look at a map instead of drawing it?

The way you placed the crime scene and the bridge over the creek is wrong. As far as I know from looking at a satellite view map of the area, no matter which side of the bridge you exit at the south end, you will still have to cross the water to get to the crime scene. Unless you're trying to say he put them in a car and drove them around?

 

[Barbieshell]

I'm not trying to criticize your drawing skills. But the way you drew the map is inaccurate, which led you to inaccurate possibilities.

Why not just look at a map instead of drawing it?

The way you placed the crime scene and the bridge over the creek is wrong. As far as I know from looking at a satellite view map of the area, no matter which side of the bridge you exit at the south end, you will still have to cross the water to get to the crime scene. Unless you're trying to say he put them in a car and drove them around?

He may have drove them round, I never thought of that tbh.
I just got a bit confused, so thanks for letting me know that even if they went down the hill the other way that they'd still have to go through water to get to the crime scene etc.

 

[Yemelyan]

He may have drove them round, I never thought of that tbh.
I just got a bit confused, so thanks for letting me know that even if they went down the hill the other way that they'd still have to go through water to get to the crime scene etc.

It's okay, the area is confusing and I don't think we know an exact, pinpoint location of the crime scene, though we know generally. Honestly wasn't trying to be rude about the drawing itself, just the position of the crime scene and especially the creek was throwing you off.

 

[Yemelyan]

@Barbieshell One thing that isn't well conveyed about the bridge from pictures (some of the ones posted from users here have shown this, though) is that after it crosses over the water near the north end, it carries on for quite a distance over land. So when they went "down the hill" at the south end they weren't immediately right on the creek bank.

 

[Barbieshell]

It's okay, the area is confusing and I don't think we know an exact, pinpoint location of the crime scene, though we know generally. Honestly wasn't trying to be rude about the drawing itself, just the position of the crime scene and especially the creek was throwing you off.

It's very confusing yes, I was just trying to simplify / condense it down so I could make more sense of it but made a pigs ear of it lol.
It's hard watching the videos as it's just such a large space to cover and hard to make out places from aerial views or even the first person stuff.

 

[Barbieshell]

@Barbieshell One thing that isn't well conveyed about the bridge from pictures (some of the ones posted from users here have shown this, though) is that after it crosses over the water near the north end, it carries on for quite a distance over land. So when they went "down the hill" at the south end they weren't immediately right on the creek bank.

Thank you, that explains it a bit more.

 

[catch_22]

On your drawing, the crime scene should be near the bottom, right-hand corner of the drawing. Across the creek from the end of the bridge.

 

[Barbieshell]

On your drawing, the crime scene should be near the bottom, right-hand corner of the drawing. Across the creek from the end of the bridge.

Thank you, so they probably did just come down the hill on the side we all thought (which is nearer to the crime scene etc).

 

[Jax49]

Linked on first page of each thread is a map created by skibaboo. "X" marks the crime scene.

Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

 

[catch_22]

I think it is kind of an unwritten rule/common courtesy to not pass people on the bridge. The bridge is plenty wide enough to do so "safely." The issue is being in such a vulnerable position and having a stranger so close that someone could easily get pushed off the side of the bridge. The odds are like one in a million that someone would try to push you off. The odds are like one in one that a stranger passing you would make you scared and uncomfortable.

Is it far-fetched to think that BG might ignore this unwritten rule? I suspect he may be a bit of a rule-breaker. What if the girls were 90% of the way across the bridge, and BG appeared at the end of the bridge and was walking towards them? What were they supposed to do? Turn around and scamper back the 800 feet to the other end of the bridge?

But why would BG do this? Why didn't he wait until they got to the end of the bridge? Was he gauging their reaction to him? Was he toying with them, or trying to terrorize them? I recently watched the "night stalker" documentary on netflix. Richard Ramirez apparently enjoyed seeing the fear in his victims.

That being said, I think that BG coming from the SE end of the bridge is totally feasible, but I'm leaning more towards him following them across from the NW side. Especially if the report about "that creepy guy behind us" is accurate. I can't see them making that statement if he passed them on the bridge and then turned around.

Also, I don't think BG necessarily crossed the bridge particularly fast. All he had to do was be on the bridge and the girls would have waited at the SE end for him to either turn around, or completely cross the bridge. They were following the unwritten rule. I don't agree with the theory that he sped across the bridge and caught up to them.

MOO

 

[photographer4]

Feb 13 - is there any significance to the date when the girls were killed?

I've considered possible religious events but

That cigarette butt I see mentioned, that could have been tossed by one of the hundreds who tramped all over that area searching for the girls. Unless I missed the piece where it's proven to be a butt from the killer.

I imagine searchers could have been in that cemetery, or not.

I sense the evening of the day of the murders, when the 'official' search was called off, that there were numerous folks tramping around the trails, and the bridge. However, I've always sensed they most likey did not venture across the creek. With that in my mind, I doubt they were coming in from the cemetery side at that stage of the search. In fact, I doubt searchers were in that cemetery at all.

I'll add, I've always had a problem with believing the killer walked back out that trail, along that road to that abandoned CPS building, in broad daylight, after he murdered these two girls. I just can't see him doing that.

MOO

RSBM
If he wore layers, or it was warm enough outside, he easily could have removed the jacket he was wearing while carrying out the actual murders. If he placed it far enough from where they were killed, there would be no blood on it (if there was blood at the scene at all). He could then put that on over any shirt he was wearing at the time to hide any blood stains or spatter and be on his way. In regards to his pants, it could be the same scenario. He may have had other pants on underneath - we simply don't know. But if he took care to conduct the murders in clothes other than whatever he wore to the scene, then he probably could have appeared reasonably clean when he left. If he was bloody, he could have washed his hands / face in the creek.

It was Feb 13 as well. The sun would not set until around what time that day? When I searched in Google it said the sunset at 6:19pm in Indiana that day. So he would have had to blend in with his surroundings if he just went out knowing he might pass people as he left who might remember him.

 

[photographer4]

I wonder, why BG should have thought, the girls were cornered at the end of the bridge? They weren't, if they hadn't had a problem with trespassing in the recent past. Did BG know of the disput, Libby had had with a property owner before? If so: WHY did he know of that?
BG's attack did start in some form on the bridge already. I remember, LE saying, that the "criminal action" began on the bridge, when Libby took the video. But of course: you are not wrong with your wording.

RBBM:
Libby had a dispute with a property owner? I'm quite new to learning about this crime, having only started reading last week - can you help me understand this point pls?

 

[photographer4]

I wonder if one set was created by him crossing the creek upon return. That would make his feet muddy and leave footprints. Maybe on February 13th, a warm day, it was dry, too, so neither the BG nor the girls left the traces. But if “the other one” had to cross the creek on his way back and go up the hill, then, yes.

I can’t see much from BG’s shoes on the bridge, but they look clean to me.

Interesting thought here: did searchers notice muddy footprints on the bridge as they were searching for the girls? I imagine they did not, or they would have followed them. They must not have noticed blood anywhere either, or they'd have been alarmed and followed that / notified LE right away upon noticing it.

This suggests to me a few other options:
-BG left a different way then he went in (maybe no one saw him).
- BG left the way he came in, but had made a change of clothes either in taking something off and putting it back on after the murders were complete or adding something over whatever he was wearing to ensure he wasn't leaving footprints etc in places they'd be noticed.

 

[Skully]

That cigarette butt I see mentioned, that could have been tossed by one of the hundreds who tramped all over that area searching for the girls. Unless I missed the piece where it's proven to be a butt from the killer.

I imagine searchers could have been in that cemetery, or not.

I sense the evening of the day of the murders, when the 'official' search was called off, that there were numerous folks tramping around the trails, and the bridge. However, I've always sensed they most likey did not venture across the creek. With that in my mind, I doubt they were coming in from the cemetery side at that stage of the search. In fact, I doubt searchers were in that cemetery at all.

I'll add, I've always had a problem with believing the killer walked back out that trail, along that road to that abandoned CPS building, in broad daylight, after he murdered these two girls. I just can't see him doing that.

MOO

can you tell me where you see this mentioned?

 

[MistyWaters]

can you tell me where you see this mentioned?

I think it began from post #649 on this thread. But nowhere has LE stated they are certain it identifies the killer.

 

[FrostedGlass]

can you tell me where you see this mentioned?

I copied it from the media thread pg 45

 

[Pyschsandi]

I think it began from post #649 on this thread. But nowhere has LE stated they are certain it identifies the killer.

I wonder if the cigarette was found near the girls, in this case I would think it was an area that there wasn’t a lot of people that would be walking around.

 

[MistyWaters]

I wonder if the cigarette was found near the girls, in this case I would think it was an area that there wasn’t a lot of people that would be walking around.

I don’t know but if so, LE has had over four years to work on it. It could lead somewhere or nowhere, much like any other physical evidence that was found.

But considering LEs ongoing ask for tips, I really get the distinct impression LE is sincere in requiring specific information from somebody who knows the suspect in order for this case to be solved.

 

[Yemelyan]

I wonder if the cigarette was found near the girls, in this case I would think it was an area that there wasn’t a lot of people that would be walking around.

The podcast Scene of the Crime (which Libby's family was involved in producing) is where that piece of information from the media thread was quoted from and is worth a listen if you get the chance. If I'm not mistaken, the podcast goes into an explanation of how the cigarette was found and from what was related there it was not, IMO, likely to be right next to the victims. But then, we have heard that the crime scene was a very large one.

 

[ReadySet]

That's not what I meant, let me clarify.
I meant that the FBI etc. may have looked at the criminal profile they made of BG, determined what the message should be, and that the way Carter expressed himself, included his tendency to be emotional and have religious references, would be the most effective person to deliver the message. In other words, DC didn't decide, others decided.

Perhaps of all the officials DC felt, he was the most betrayed by BG; so he had a special reason to give the BG a conscience.