Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Yemelyan]

That's not what I meant, let me clarify.
I meant that the FBI etc. may have looked at the criminal profile they made of BG, determined what the message should be, and that the way Carter expressed himself, included his tendency to be emotional and have religious references, would be the most effective person to deliver the message. In other words, DC didn't decide, others decided.

I totally agree with this. IMO if you look at this from a profiling perspective, here you likely have a killer with a serious issue with power and control ("we know this is about power to you") and who is the person, out of everyone associated with multi- agency task force, who would elicit a reaction in a killer who is looking to assert power? Who is going to bring out his inferiority complex? ("Only a coward would do such a thing.") IMO the best person is Doug Carter, head of the entire ISP, who radiates power and authority in his uniform, who speaks with passion and conviction, like a preacher does.

 

[MistyWaters]

I totally agree with this. IMO if you look at this from a profiling perspective, here you likely have a killer with a serious issue with power and control ("we know this is about power to you") and who is the person, out of everyone associated with multi- agency task force, who would elicit a reaction in a killer who is looking to assert power? Who is going to bring out his inferiority complex? ("Only a coward would do such a thing.") IMO the best person is Doug Carter, head of the entire ISP, who radiates power and authority in his uniform, who speaks with passion and conviction, like a preacher does.

And DC certainly did a great job of it because that PC in Apr/19 is still being talked about as if it occurred yesterday. It’s a very difficult task to illicit a positive and optimistic public response by introducing a New Direction, while at the same time taking all the prior emphasis off a wrong one.

But did it yield in the tip LE were looking for? Dramatics are a powerful thing in capturing public attention, hoped to result in a positive outcome. Almost two years later, I’m becoming doubtful. As time goes on it seems to me more energy is being focused on speculation to fill in the blanks as opposed to emphasis on a critical tip by someone close to the suspect, leading to an arrest. I hope I’m wrong.

 

[Skully]

I think it began from post #649 on this thread. But nowhere has LE stated they are certain it identifies the killer.

I just wanted to make sure I am in TOS. I want to mention that a cigarette at a CS, could mean the person may have been there smoking after the murders. But that seems unlikely to me. So depending on the condition of the cigarette butt, someone may have been there earlier, or someone other than the killer hung out there. That is why if they got DNA from it, it may not be the killer's.

 

[Pyschsandi]

I totally agree with this. IMO if you look at this from a profiling perspective, here you likely have a killer with a serious issue with power and control ("we know this is about power to you") and who is the person, out of everyone associated with multi- agency task force, who would elicit a reaction in a killer who is looking to assert power? Who is going to bring out his inferiority complex? ("Only a coward would do such a thing.") IMO the best person is Doug Carter, head of the entire ISP, who radiates power and authority in his uniform, who speaks with passion and conviction, like a preacher does.

I agree as well, sexual assault is usually a power/control crime. I think LE was trying to get BG to contact them with a response to them calling him a coward. A power/control perpetrator will be angered by them calling him a coward and may contact them to set them straight.

 

[MistyWaters]

I just wanted to make sure I am in TOS. I want to mention that a cigarette at a CS, could mean the person may have been there smoking after the murders. But that seems unlikely to me. So depending on the condition of the cigarette butt, someone may have been there earlier, or someone other than the killer hung out there. That is why if they got DNA from it, it may not be the killer's.

Yes iirc it was recently posted here that LE are not certain they have the killers DNA....from either the DTH podcast or Comet Q&A?

The problem with litter scattered about is its impossible to prove in court precisely when any items were discarded. IMO the case became more difficult after the focus was placed on someone with a possible local connection, who was familiar with the trail system. If so, that in itself suggests the opposite of an isolated one-time trail murder walk.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree as well, sexual assault is usually a power/control crime. I think LE was trying to get BG to contact them with a response to them calling him a coward. A power/control perpetrator will be angered by them calling him a coward and may contact them to set them straight.

IMO LE also hoped to instigate a noticeable over-reaction from the perpetrator, others noticing his unusual behaviour motivating them to call in a tip. It was worth a try.

 

[Yemelyan]

IMO LE also hoped to instigate a noticeable over-reaction from the perpetrator, others noticing his unusual behaviour motivating them to call in a tip. It was worth a try.

IMO this was definitely the strategy. They were hoping that some relative, friend, or co-worker of his has a little piece of information that they may not even realize they know - and that any reaction from the person responsible would get them to re-think the days surrounding the murders and tip it in. JMO

 

[Jax49]

We can't bring info from the scanner thread here, but in case someone wants to read:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...s-scanner-thread.333467/page-10#post-13299892

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...s-scanner-thread.333467/page-19#post-15019925

 

[Charlot123]

I totally agree with this. IMO if you look at this from a profiling perspective, here you likely have a killer with a serious issue with power and control ("we know this is about power to you") and who is the person, out of everyone associated with multi- agency task force, who would elicit a reaction in a killer who is looking to assert power? Who is going to bring out his inferiority complex? ("Only a coward would do such a thing.") IMO the best person is Doug Carter, head of the entire ISP, who radiates power and authority in his uniform, who speaks with passion and conviction, like a preacher does.

The only thing that tells me that DC knows who the perpetrator is, or thinks he knows, is the reference to "the Shack".

Tell me if I am wrong. There is a huge gap between the Bible- based and Gospel- based branches of Christianity. Am I right in assuming that DC would address only his Protestant brethren with appealing to the Shack?

So at least, this, about BG, he somehow should know? Religious, Protestant, attending the church, watched the Shack...

 

[MistyWaters]

The only thing that tells me that DC knows who the perpetrator is, or thinks he knows, is the reference to "the Shack".

Tell me if I am wrong. There is a huge gap between the Bible- based and Gospel- based branches of Christianity. Am I right in assuming that DC would address only his Protestant brethren with appealing to the Shack?

So at least, this, about BG, he somehow should know? Religious, Protestant, attending the church, watched the Shack...

I thought TL4S summed it up very nicely, post #614.

Quoted from @Yemelyan several pages back:

In the podcast Scene of the Crime: A New Direction, minute 50:10: Kelsi asks Carter, can he clear up his remarks regarding The Shack? Did the girls die in a shack? Carter's answer: "There was no shack." He goes on to ask her if she has seen the movie: KG: "Yes, a couple of times." DC: "Then you know." He further explains that the movie reflects his personal values about morality and redemption and illustrates, in his opinion, how a person might cope with loss through faith.

I believe LE chooses their wording very carefully, even when being vague. But this reference, along with other religious undertones during the PC, and various LE comments in this and other cases, IMO, reflects the culture of the region. My guess is DC regrets ever bringing up that movie. His intended message was lost.

 

[minazoe]

I don't think Carter calling bg a coward had any impact whatsoever...this guys doesn't care. maybe if you call him something like a girl or someone with low intelligence..like saying this
murder was done by someone of low intelligence and from the fringes of society...someone with very little skill like someone who has not completed grammar school, someone who is sexually conflicted and probably needs a psychiatrist.

Carter should call me, I know how to aggravate this POC. mOO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I don't think Carter calling bg a coward had any impact whatsoever...this guys doesn't care. maybe if you call him something like a girl or someone with low intelligence..like saying this
murder was done by someone of low intelligence and from the fringes of society...someone with very little skill like someone who has not completed grammar school, someone who is sexually conflicted and probably needs a psychiatrist.

Carter should call me, I know how to aggravate this POC. mOO

Non of that helps, I believe. He had enough opportunity reading/hearing something about himself since 2017, and he will laugh at it.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

That's not what I meant, let me clarify.
I meant that the FBI etc. may have looked at the criminal profile they made of BG, determined what the message should be, and that the way Carter expressed himself, included his tendency to be emotional and have religious references, would be the most effective person to deliver the message. In other words, DC didn't decide, others decided.

I agree, DC didn't decide himself and without agreement, what to say, but he was the one, who could convey it most convincingly, because he was most offended (and the killer knows very well! IMO). The FBI of course is informed about the betraying and scripted the speech accordingly, maybe in teamwork with DC. IMO

 

[Optics]

I was there, alone, October 11th, mid and late afternoon time. A Sunday.

Parked at the parking area across IN 25. A bunch of vehicles were parked there, which surprised me. I saw maybe 3 or 4 people milling about on that side of the highway, as there is a recently-improved section of trail west of the Freedom Bridge. I try to keep in mind the trail system along there is a 'work in progress', it was terribly overgrown and impassible up until 2012 or so, before the highway was put through. Off of that trail is an historical marker for the Milroy family, who were some of the earliest settlers of that part of Carroll County.

Between the Freedom Bridge and the intersection of the two trails where the girls were dropped off nearby, and down into the gorge on the Girard Trail, I saw maybe 20 people. Families, mostly, two Mennonite families, an older couple on the Girard Trail, etc. I walked down the Girard Trail, first, before walking to the MHB. I passed the older couple, after that I saw no other human on my way to the creek bed.

Walking back up from the creek was eerie. Nobody else was around, I heard birds and maybe some small animals doing their thing. Got on to the main trail and walked towards the bridge, again, no one was around. Just me and nature.

Point being, even on a beautiful Autumn day, and despite there being some traffic out there at the MHB, you will find yourself alone like I did, depending on the timing of your visit.

JMO

Absolutely agree. There are 10 miles of that Trail, so when I read some of the earlier stats on numbers of people, one has to keep in mind if there are/were 50 people there, it was at different times of the day and could be spread anywhere on that 10 mile area.

 

[MegPTdoc]

Thank God, a PT Doctor is posting it now... I have mentioned steppage and linked YouTube videos as early as in 2019. At 2019 PC, DC said that the gait was due to the “structure of the bridge”. I still have my doubts. BG lifts one thigh rather high; one doesn’t need it to navigate the slope, one needs it to compensate for the foot drop. But we don’t know how they processed the film, and whether they cut out portions of it, thus creating odd gait? Or maybe, whatever was hidden under the jeans (a weapon?) was long enough to create oddity of the gait.
@MegPTdoc, do you see some outlook, some shape, on his R foot, under jeans? Could it be braces, what do you think?

You are absolutely right, he is demonstrating excessive hip movement on the right side. His gait deviations are not consistent with an uneven surface.
When walking on an uneven surface. A healthy person would widen their base of support and take shortened steps. BG is doing neither of those things. He is compensating for some form of weakness on his right side by using the “steppage pattern” he also is doing a lateral weight shift over the left limb which if the bridge was declining at an angle down towards the left side you would expect to see a weight shift laterally over the RIGHT limb during stance!
I think it’s awesome @Charlot123 that you’re at least questioning their interpretation. A gun hidden or a brace would not result in that gait pattern. BG gait is very noticeably due to some form of foot drop on the right limb IMO.

 

[MegPTdoc]

Thank God, a PT Doctor is posting it now... I have mentioned steppage and linked YouTube videos as early as in 2019. At 2019 PC, DC said that the gait was due to the “structure of the bridge”. I still have my doubts. BG lifts one thigh rather high; one doesn’t need it to navigate the slope, one needs it to compensate for the foot drop. But we don’t know how they processed the film, and whether they cut out portions of it, thus creating odd gait? Or maybe, whatever was hidden under the jeans (a weapon?) was long enough to create oddity of the gait.
@MegPTdoc, do you see some outlook, some shape, on his R foot, under jeans? Could it be braces, what do you think?

You are absolutely right, he is demonstrating excessive hip movement on the right side. His gait deviations are not consistent with an uneven surface.
When walking on an uneven surface. A healthy person would widen their base of support and take shortened steps. BG is doing neither of those things. He is compensating for some form of weakness on his right side by using the “steppage pattern” he also is doing a lateral weight shift over the left limb which if the bridge was declining at an angle down towards the left side you would expect to see a weight shift laterally over the RIGHT limb during stance!
I think it’s awesome @Charlot123 that you’re at least questioning their interpretation. A gun hidden or a brace would not result in that gait pattern. BG gait is very noticeably due to some form of foot drop on the right limb IMO.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Thank God, a PT Doctor is posting it now... I have mentioned steppage and linked YouTube videos as early as in 2019. At 2019 PC, DC said that the gait was due to the “structure of the bridge”. I still have my doubts. BG lifts one thigh rather high; one doesn’t need it to navigate the slope, one needs it to compensate for the foot drop. But we don’t know how they processed the film, and whether they cut out portions of it, thus creating odd gait? Or maybe, whatever was hidden under the jeans (a weapon?) was long enough to create oddity of the gait.
@MegPTdoc, do you see some outlook, some shape, on his R foot, under jeans? Could it be braces, what do you think?

I am so glad that this has been brought up!

I’m not a Dr, nor a PT. So I won’t be able to share medical terms. But I do know what I’m talking about, and will try my best to convey things in a way that you, the reader will understand, hopefully.

Both my husband and I have a foot drop. Both for totally different reasons.

Something I noticed off the bat with BG is his malalignment, from his hips to his feet, and more.

Very, very, very long story short in my late 30s I have diagnosed with a connective tissue disorder. And because I am autistic, this new subject became my entire life, hyper-focusing on it for several years.

I know so much about this disorder that I can nearly immediately tell when strangers have it. Most people have never even heard of it because it is rare. Like NORD rare. But just between us, it’s not at all that rare. It’s more of people not knowing what it is, including most doctors. And really that’s just because they don’t know enough about it to actually recognize the various, unseemingly connected symptoms as actually being apart of a disorder.

This is how I immediately recognized BG’s malalignment and odd/abnormal gait.

I am not at all saying that he has a connective tissue disorder, but it should definitely be considered, and looked into through a magnifying glass. Especially considering if BG does have a CT disorder, it’s probably more than likely that it’s genetic!

As well as what the other posters were saying about any potential neurological and/or spinal abnormalities. I think this could definitely of value. His legs are very wide set. This is something that is done, usually unknowingly by the person who has experienced some kind of deficit/injury. It’s done instinctively by the body to help stabilize the persons balance, or lack there of.

Also, something that has just not sat right with me from the beginning was the fact that the initial photo of BG released showed that his foot is blurry. But AFTER the release of the short video, it is evident in the video that the foot was not at all blurry.

I personally feel that the pic first released, showing the blurry foot was presented that way on purpose.But for what purpose exactly??!!?!

I feel like this case could have been solved way before now had there not be so many mistakes and/or coverups, and/or more research would have been done of LE end.

MOO. mOo. m00.

PS: I’m trying to upload the photo of his blurred foot but my phone has mysteriously closed my folder 5 times!

ETA: I did it! I uploaded the photo.

 

[calvinshobbes]

This question has probably been asked before, but I have always wondered why police have not released more of the video of BG. Could it be that Libby used live mode on her phone to take a photo and these few seconds in live mode is all the video they had of BG walking?

 

[Marzipan]

With so many new people and perspectives on here, I’m asking again about BG’s height. The FBI poster gives a range of 5’6 to 5’10...and a weight range of 180-220. I simply cannot agree to those relative proportions because I see a fairly slim man. If that height, I’d guess 155-170. If 180-220 pounds, I’d have to guess 6 feet tall or even taller. BG doesn’t look tall though to my eye, nor do the feet look big.
Is their range accurate? It’s the FBI, so I must assume some good math and tech goes into their estimate. I guess I could see the top of their height range and the bottom of the weight range at 5’10 and 180.
I have zero experience other than thinking about what my dad/husband/son measure. What do others think?

 

[MistyWaters]

You are absolutely right, he is demonstrating excessive hip movement on the right side. His gait deviations are not consistent with an uneven surface.
When walking on an uneven surface. A healthy person would widen their base of support and take shortened steps. BG is doing neither of those things. He is compensating for some form of weakness on his right side by using the “steppage pattern” he also is doing a lateral weight shift over the left limb which if the bridge was declining at an angle down towards the left side you would expect to see a weight shift laterally over the RIGHT limb during stance!
I think it’s awesome @Charlot123 that you’re at least questioning their interpretation. A gun hidden or a brace would not result in that gait pattern. BG gait is very noticeably due to some form of foot drop on the right limb IMO.

The video of him walking is two steps looped over and over again, it’s not his actual gait walking down the bridge. Notice the forked tree in the background as it jumps to and fro but never fading into the distance. Indeed, the video is very deceiving as it does appears the suspect is lurching his way along. If anyone was videoed taking just two steps, then looped over and over IMO the results would never yield a natural uniform movement. Much the same as “down the hill”, the words in the recording were repeated several times.

Watch the tree first, not the suspect -