Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Sneaker33]

With so many new people and perspectives on here, I’m asking again about BG’s height. The FBI poster gives a range of 5’6 to 5’10...and a weight range of 180-220. I simply cannot agree to those relative proportions because I see a fairly slim man. If that height, I’d guess 155-170. If 180-220 pounds, I’d have to guess 6 feet tall or even taller. BG doesn’t look tall though to my eye, nor do the feet look big.
Is their range accurate? It’s the FBI, so I must assume some good math and tech goes into their estimate. I guess I could see the top of their height range and the bottom of the weight range at 5’10 and 180.
I have zero experience other than thinking about what my dad/husband/son measure. What do others think?

I think an athletic man could weigh more but appear slim.

 

[MistyWaters]

With so many new people and perspectives on here, I’m asking again about BG’s height. The FBI poster gives a range of 5’6 to 5’10...and a weight range of 180-220. I simply cannot agree to those relative proportions because I see a fairly slim man. If that height, I’d guess 155-170. If 180-220 pounds, I’d have to guess 6 feet tall or even taller. BG doesn’t look tall though to my eye, nor do the feet look big.
Is their range accurate? It’s the FBI, so I must assume some good math and tech goes into their estimate. I guess I could see the top of their height range and the bottom of the weight range at 5’10 and 180.
I have zero experience other than thinking about what my dad/husband/son measure. What do others think?

I’d think investigators should have the ability to determine his approximate height from the video factoring it with distance and camera angle against the height of the trees in the background. I’m just guessing but it would seem a comparable process would to possible to that of security footage at entrances of retail stores with height markers at or near exit doors.

I have noticed the weight and height didn’t change from sketch to sketch, another reason I think the video was relied upon. As for weight, I have no idea other than maybe it was estimated given his height and appearance. JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

This question has probably been asked before, but I have always wondered why police have not released more of the video of BG. Could it be that Libby used live mode on her phone to take a photo and these few seconds in live mode is all the video they had of BG walking?

Tobe Leazenby addressed this in episode 10 of the Down the Hill podcast. This piece of his interview may also be in the HLN Down the Hill special but the podcast is where I heard it.

He was asked if they have more video and does he think it should be released. He stated that he's not sure what advantage releasing more of it would have. People think that there's something earthshattering contained on the video that will jump out at them and lead them to solve the case but he doesn't think there is anything like that is contained on it. In addition, the video is shorter than many people believe. Some people have speculated it's eight minutes long but he can say that it's not nearly that long. There are still "items" within the video that investigators continue to look into and he considers it a positive piece that will eventually be used in the courtroom.

Sorry that this doesn't address how Libby filmed it but I hope it gives you some insight into why there might not be more to release, or at least, anything more that is deemed helpful at this time.

 

[Charlot123]

I am so glad that this has been brought up!

I’m not a Dr, nor a PT. So I won’t be able to share medical terms. But I do know what I’m talking about, and will try my best to convey things in a way that you, the reader will understand, hopefully.

Both my husband and I have a foot drop. Both for totally different reasons.

Something I noticed off the bat with BG is his malalignment, from his hips to his feet, and more.

Very, very, very long story short in my late 30s I have diagnosed with a connective tissue disorder. And because I am autistic, this new subject became my entire life, hyper-focusing on it for several years.

I know so much about this disorder that I can nearly immediately tell when strangers have it. Most people have never even heard of it because it is rare. Like NORD rare. But just between us, it’s not at all that rare. It’s more of people not knowing what it is, including most doctors. And really that’s just because they don’t know enough about it to actually recognize the various, unseemingly connected symptoms as actually being apart of a disorder.

This is how I immediately recognized BG’s malalignment and odd/abnormal gait.

I am not at all saying that he has a connective tissue disorder, but it should definitely be considered, and looked into through a magnifying glass. Especially considering if BG does have a CT disorder, it’s probably more than likely that it’s genetic!

As well as what the other posters were saying about any potential neurological and/or spinal abnormalities. I think this could definitely of value. His legs are very wide set. This is something that is done, usually unknowingly by the person who has experienced some kind of deficit/injury. It’s done instinctively by the body to help stabilize the persons balance, or lack there of.

Also, something that has just not sat right with me from the beginning was the fact that the initial photo of BG released showed that his foot is blurry. But AFTER the release of the short video, it is evident in the video that the foot was not at all blurry.

I personally feel that the pic first released, showing the blurry foot was presented that way on purpose.But for what purpose exactly??!!?!

I feel like this case could have been solved way before now had there not be so many mistakes and/or coverups, and/or more research would have been done of LE end.

MOO. mOo. m00.

PS: I’m trying to upload the photo of his blurred foot but my phone has mysteriously closed my folder 5 times!

ETA: I did it! I uploaded the photo.

@UnapologeticallyAspie (love this name! Marie Curie was an Aspiegirl).

First, I hope that you and your husband are doing well. ))

Second, I like that you mentioned connective tissue disorder... intuitively, I always felt something...

When I first saw the video of the BG, before it was cleared and processed, and read the comments about bulbous nose, two things came to my mind. One, rosacea, and two, malar rash.

Very different skin changes, and for different reasons. With rosacea in his age, one would think, heavy drinking. Malar rash implies a spectrum of connective tissue disorders (not that they are rare, they are interconnected, at times, the diagnosis is approximate).

And at first I thought, surely, alcoholic, look at him, and then I remembered how healthy people would look between, say, lupus attacks. In short, to me a flare-up of an autoimmune condition, or even, steroids used for treatment, could explain how a seemingly normal person might get very ill (and mentally, too). So ill that he'll do the unthinkable.

So while I understand the futility of diagnosing an apparition on a decrepit bridge, hey, people saw a dog in his jacket )))

In short, I always intuitively felt it. Not connective tissue, autoimmune disorder. Do you think he might have something autoimmune, or rather, genetic, like collagen disorder?

 

[Shamrock1]

@UnapologeticallyAspie (love this name! Marie Curie was an Aspiegirl).

First, I hope that you and your husband are doing well. ))

Second, I like that you mentioned connective tissue disorder... intuitively, I always felt something...

When I first saw the video of the BG, before it was cleared and processed, and read the comments about bulbous nose, two things came to my mind. One, rosacea, and two, malar rash.

Very different skin changes, and for different reasons. With rosacea in his age, one would think, heavy drinking. Malar rash implies a spectrum of connective tissue disorders (not that they are rare, they are interconnected, at times, the diagnosis is approximate).

And at first I thought, surely, alcoholic, look at him, and then I remembered how healthy people would look between, say, lupus attacks. In short, to me a flare-up of an autoimmune condition, or even, steroids used for treatment, could explain how a seemingly normal person might get very ill (and mentally, too). So ill that he'll do the unthinkable.

So while I understand the futility of diagnosing an apparition on a decrepit bridge, hey, people saw a dog in his jacket )))

In short, I always intuitively felt it. Not connective tissue, autoimmune disorder. Do you think he might have something autoimmune, or rather, genetic, like collagen disorder?

Minor point, and I don’t want to derail the conversation. It’s no longer believed that the bulbous nose indicates alcoholism. Here’s a link explaining it: Why do some old men have big red noses? No, it's not alcohol

All the ideas about his gait are so interesting! There was someone here who thought he may have a prosthetic leg - within the past year, I think. I’ll try to find it.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I agree as well, sexual assault is usually a power/control crime.

Agreed, but an ultimate form of power and control is strangulation, where a killer can demonstrate control over the victim’s next breath. It also prevents the victim from crying out.

 

[stattlich1]

I think an athletic man could weigh more but appear slim.

I've though him to be younger and athletic, or maybe a weightlifter/bodybuilder. I don't see him as old and frumpy at all. Strong upper, what did the old song say, Big John, broad at the shoulders, narrow at the hip.

I too have thought from the beginning that he throws his right foot, has some odd gait, even in light of navigating the crossties.

 

[TL4S]

At the April 2019 PC, just before presenting the video, DC said this:

DELPHI PRESS CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT (2019) - CrimeLights

"The video shows the suspect walking on the bridge. When you see the video, watch the person’s mannerisms as they walk. Do you recognize the mannerisms as being someone that you might know? Remember, he is walking on the former railroad bridge. Because of the deteriorated condition of the bridge, the suspect is not walking naturally due to the spacing between the ties."

 

[Deleted member 102539]

In short, I always intuitively felt it. Not connective tissue, autoimmune disorder. Do you think he might have something autoimmune, or rather, genetic, like collagen disorder?

bbm
^^ Maybe this. IMO Though it seems to be much too intimate going into this field, because I don't think, it has something to do with his muscels or gait. Medical treatment, well, it might play a role (Idk).

 

[Yemelyan]

Agreed, but an ultimate form of power and control is strangulation, where a killer can demonstrate control over the victim’s next breath. It also prevents the victim from crying out.

I would add a bit of information to support this....the Keppel & Brown study on child abduction murders showed that when children are killed by their abductor (as happened in the Delphi case) those cases are very different from child murders in general or adult murders. One of these quantifiable differences is in cause of death.

In child abduction murders, death by strangulation or asphyxiation of unknown method accounted for over 55% of murders. Compare this to child murders in general (13%) and all murders (9%).

On this particular data point, child abduction killers (even if they commit only one offense of this type) are very similar to serial killers of adults.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

We can't bring info from the scanner thread here, but in case someone wants to read:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...s-scanner-thread.333467/page-10#post-13299892

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...s-scanner-thread.333467/page-19#post-15019925

Thank you SO much for reminding me of this!!!! (maybe & possibly others, but I don’t want to speak for them)

ETA: MOO.

 

[photographer4]

Kelsi said in the Infamous Indy podcast

"

Around 7:30 in the morning we had all went back out to search.

…

Three of us chose to cross the bridge to look underneath the bridge on the opposite side.

Um, and that’s where I ended up hearing that we found the bodies.

...

I was standing on the trail that’s right under the bridge looking out into the woods and somebody yelled up that they had found a shoe.

And when they had found the shoe they had asked what kind of shoes the girls were wearing, and they yelled up the type of shoe that Libby was wearing. So I yelled down and told them that.

Actually then the person that had asked that had put up their phone and saw two deer in the ground moving. And so he was looking to see what it might be, and he saw two deer standing up there, and when he saw them, he moved the camera down, and that’s when we found them."

RBBM:
Well if that is how the girls were actually found, that may explain a comment by LE that I spoke of upthread where he said they may not have realized what they were looking at when the girls were found. Maybe no one was even that close to the girls to have seen their bodies then besides LE?

 

[Pyschsandi]

I found an interview with Anna Williams (Abby’s mom) that was very informative. I don’t know if I can post it up here. If I can please tell me, if not you all may be able to find it on your own. It might have already been posted.

 

[MistyWaters]

I found an interview with Anna Williams (Abby’s mom) that was very informative. I don’t know if I can post it up here. If I can please tell me, if not you all may be able to find it on your own. It might have already been posted.

I don’t know if you’re aware of the Media Thread but over time various members have been very diligent in copying links, plus there’s several transcripts there as well and most recently a lot of dedicated work from podcasts by cujenn81. Just thought I’d mention this, for the benefit of all newer members who’ve recently joined us here as well.

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

 

[Pyschsandi]

I would add a bit of information to support this....the Keppel & Brown study on child abduction murders showed that when children are killed by their abductor (as happened in the Delphi case) those cases are very different from child murders in general or adult murders. One of these quantifiable differences is in cause of death.

In child abduction murders, death by strangulation or asphyxiation of unknown method accounted for over 55% of murders. Compare this to child murders in general (13%) and all murders (9%).

On this particular data point, child abduction killers (even if they commit only one offense of this type) are very similar to serial killers of adults.

I have only read the abstract of the study done by Kepel and Brown, but it is so interesting. They claim that the men that usually commit such a crime are approximately 27 years of age. The age is much younger than the first drawing of the suspect and a little older than the drawing of the second suspect. I always thought that the drawings should be combined to make a clearer picture of BG.

 

[photographer4]

With so many new people and perspectives on here, I’m asking again about BG’s height. The FBI poster gives a range of 5’6 to 5’10...and a weight range of 180-220. I simply cannot agree to those relative proportions because I see a fairly slim man. If that height, I’d guess 155-170. If 180-220 pounds, I’d have to guess 6 feet tall or even taller. BG doesn’t look tall though to my eye, nor do the feet look big.
Is their range accurate? It’s the FBI, so I must assume some good math and tech goes into their estimate. I guess I could see the top of their height range and the bottom of the weight range at 5’10 and 180.
I have zero experience other than thinking about what my dad/husband/son measure. What do others think?

I'm guessing that LE suggested his height / weight based on a few different possible factors:
- video / photo of the suspect: when lined up against surrounding objects its possible to go to the scene. Take a measurement. If they know roughly from where the photo / video was taken (distance), and they have a tree or something immediately behind / beside BG in that image / footage, they can do some math magic to figure out his rough height / weight. I'll add to it, if the object they're measuring was bent (eg: a bent tree trunk), they'd factor in the curve and straighten that to come up with their guess.
- footprints: can give away boot / shoe size. Gait. If the prints are in mud, sand etc, they can also provide a depth, associated with weight. This might depend on how frozen the ground might be (if it was, I have no idea).
- we don't know if they found any clothing worn by perp or brought by perp to the scene.

For those who might be interested to learn more about how LE come up with guesses on height / weight I found this video that helps explain some methods. Either way, I'd wager LE is going to be more accurate than we are on guesses in this area. They might even know if the perp wore ill fitting footwear!
How Video Forensic Experts Determine Height in Images and Videos | ncavf.com

 

[Pyschsandi]

I don’t know if you’re aware of the Media Thread but over time various members have been very diligent in copying links, plus there’s several transcripts there as well and most recently a lot of dedicated work from podcasts by cujenn81. Just thought I’d mention this, for the benefit of all newer members who’ve recently joined us here as well.

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

Thank you Mistywarers.

 

[MistyWaters]

Interesting, even the FBI describe the audio as “Guys.....Down the hill” which in my opinion surely indicates “guys” was not spoken immediately before “down the hill”.

Also noticing the video linked to the FBI website, it’s much easier to recognize the looping of the two steps by the suspect as each is separated by a brief flash effect. Towards the end his last two steps have been reduced in speed. The forked tree behind him is still jumping back and forth.

LIBERTY GERMAN | Federal Bureau of Investigation

 

[Yemelyan]

I have only read the abstract of the study done by Kepel and Brown, but it is so interesting. They claim that the men that usually commit such a crime are approximately 27 years of age. The age is much younger than the first drawing of the suspect and a little older than the drawing of the second suspect. I always thought that the drawings should be combined to make a clearer picture of BG.

That study is very comprehensive because it includes data on over 800 cases of child abduction/murder, which as everyone here knows, is one of the very rarest kinds of crimes against children. The average age of offenders in the study was 27 but there were perpetrators in the case studies with ages in the teens up to (I believe) age 62. It is the rarest of the rare for one of these offenders to be over age 50 at the time of the murder, for a variety of hormonal, fitness, and lifestyle reasons. Notice I'm not saying it never happens, but it's rare. IMO

 

[Pyschsandi]

That study is very comprehensive because it includes data on over 800 cases of child abduction/murder, which as everyone here knows, is one of the very rarest kinds of crimes against children. The average age of offenders in the study was 27 but there were perpetrators in the case studies with ages in the teens up to (I believe) age 62. It is the rarest of the rare for one of these offenders to be over age 50 at the time of the murder, for a variety of hormonal, fitness, and lifestyle reasons. Notice I'm not saying it never happens, but it's rare. IMO

Thank you yemelyan. My iPad wouldn’t download the entire study, so all I had to go on was the abstract. It’s sad that they found 800 cases to study of offenders that would hurt children.