Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[Diddian]

So early on, do you think they had an idea of where he came in or left? I don't think they knew about the vehicle at the CPS building the first day or so. My guess is that people found out about the murders and then started calling in tips or things they saw that day, alone with LE interviewing anyone at the reserve of course. I think the may concern at that point was to get all the different agencies in and around and to the crime scene. I know they didn't realize that it was so large, up to the bridge until they found the phone and then enlarged it. It really chaotic and intense when you first start analyzing your crime scene, there are so many factors and people and they had how many agencies there.... So if it was a mistake, it was hindsight and you go with what you have. I don't know what they would have gleaned from the cemetery in the way of evidence, maybe a tire track, or foot impressions, but foot impressions would be at the crime scene too.

I wonder whether they noticed whether the cemetery had been freshly mown?

 

[Nancy1954]

Probably. From the views in Julie Melvin's videos, I was having a hard time accepting the idea that someone on the bridge side could see bodies flat on the ground.

In the beginning we read that a set of footprints led them to the victims, which made sense to me except I wondered why there weren't 3 sets.

 

[Nancy1954]

Perhaps because both girls were deceased by the time they got to the bank of where that one set of footprints is found. I have always wondered this, given that there was only mention of the one set of footprints. MOO.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm wondering how wide the bridge was, does anyone know? All along I've thought that he must've just followed across the bridge from the get-go, and speed up to catch up to them. But some do think he passed by them on the bridge, and I just think that would be tricky to do. HArd to say!

On this link flick the top photo to the second one. The bridge is not very wide at all. I think if he started approaching from the NW while the girls were on the bridge deck the logical option for them would be to walk SE ahead of him, even if they’d never intended to go the full length of the bridge. If so, I’d suppose they expected him to just turn around once he got to the end and walk back to the trails. Then they could cross back after he was gone.

That’s the most likely scenario I can think of because passing someone on that bridge would scare the daylights out of most people, especially if it were a stranger. All it would take is a sharp nudge and the river or tree tops are 60 feet down below.

Sponsor, donors sought to turn trestle into trail crossing

 

[stattlich1]

I wonder whether they noticed whether the cemetery had been freshly mown?

Doubtful there was any grass mowing going on in February.

 

[Satchie]

I'm wondering how wide the bridge was, does anyone know? All along I've thought that he must've just followed across the bridge from the get-go, and speed up to catch up to them. But some do think he passed by them on the bridge, and I just think that would be tricky to do. Hard to say!

I'm not sure how wide, but it's a railway bridge with some extra platform on either side so maybe 6 feet, BUT, it is very high up over a gorge, without guardrails. People must have to pass each other on occassion, but IMO it would be done carefully and slowly.

 

[MistyWaters]

I wonder whether they noticed whether the cemetery had been freshly mown?

In February, a warm winter day? That would appear suspicious for sure.

 

[Diddian]

Perhaps because both girls were deceased by the time they got to the bank of where that one set of footprints is found. I have always wondered this, given that there was only mention of the one set of footprints. MOO.

One set of footprints could also mean the girls took a different path, as would happen if there were two predators working together, one initially confronting them on the south side of Deer Creek and then driving them toward the other on the north side and the other capturing or hunting them as they came in his direction.

 

[Diddian]

In February, a warm winter day? That would appear suspicious for sure.

Good point! SMH.

 

[photographer4]

I wonder whether they noticed whether the cemetery had been freshly mown?

If it had been freshly mown, in February no less, I'm sure we wouldn't have seen LE vehicles parked there in the photos / video of the investigation unfolding! Surely they'd have noticed that and wondered why and then searched it with a fine tooth comb or two?

 

[TL4S]

Yes, that’s what I’m thinking. I was leaning towards the bridge as being part of a predetermined homicide site but now I’m beginning to wonder if instead it was a case of him hunting for a vulnerable victim (or two) in any part of the 10 mile historic trail system, anywhere that afforded a certain amount of privacy with nobody around. And he just happened to have walked toward the NE end of it that day and unfortunately Libby and Abby just happened to be there too. Fantasies don’t involve homicide at one sole location, particularly not if he is or has the potential of becoming a serial killer.

At the lowest point of the sand bar iirc it’s been said the water was only a few inches deep so he wouldn’t have been wet from head to toe, had he walked out to any place he parked his car. If LE knew he’d been cut or scratched then a full DNA profile would not be in doubt.

He could’ve been long gone at least 1/2 hour before the pickup time if, as ISP have said, the killings occurred within minutes of the video. I can’t think of how they’d know that other than cellphone audio recordings. But still, there’s much we don’t know and those questions won’t be answered until an arrest and trial occurs, adding into the picture the “who”. Soon, I hope.

JMO

I also think it's quite possible he was not hunting for a victim that day at all, but he saw them at whatever point and for whatever reason wanted to engage them. I don't think it necessarily took planning to corner them there, either, but I bet he knew he could if they crossed the bridge, because he was familiar.

This is JMO, and it's only me guessing at random, but I don't think he planned or prepared a kill site, hung trail cams, scoped out the trail for victims, stuffed his jacket full of fantasy items, or any other pre-mediated activity. I don't know why I think that, but I do. There's just as good a chance he did any of those things as not, but I can't see it.

I think in the space between the south end of the bridge and the creek, he got control and started his attack. I'm guessing L's shoe and phone and whatever else might have been lost during a struggle on the south side and whatever caused him to decide to take them across the creek was maybe an impulsive move to get them all out of sight. Or the girls ran that way. I don't know. If he left signatures, I think they were likely manifestations of his heightened state in that moment, and if things were "odd" it's because he's odd in his mentality, anyway. JMO

 

[stattlich1]

I'm not sure how wide, but it's a railway bridge with some extra platform on either side so maybe 6 feet, BUT, it is very high up over a gorge, without guardrails. People must have to pass each other on occassion, but IMO it would be done carefully and slowly.

I would guess the railroad bridge to be greater than 8 and half feet wide.

The standard railroad ties dimensions and most used are 7” (in) x 9” (in) x 8.5’ (feet). Some other dimensions are also in use, those are 7” (in) x 8” (in) x 8.5’ (feet) ; 6” (in) x 8” (in) x 8.5’ (feet).

https://trainconductorhq.com/railroad-tie-dimensions/

 

[Beachlife926]

I would guess the railroad bridge to be greater than 8 and half feet wide.

The standard railroad ties dimensions and most used are 7” (in) x 9” (in) x 8.5’ (feet). Some other dimensions are also in use, those are 7” (in) x 8” (in) x 8.5’ (feet) ; 6” (in) x 8” (in) x 8.5’ (feet).

https://trainconductorhq.com/railroad-tie-dimensions/

In addition, last year they announced widening it to 10 feet.
“The City of Delphi is working on the project as well. A $1.2 million grant from the state will help pave the trail, widen it 10 feet and help with soil erosion.”
$260K renovation underway to turn Delphi's Monon High Bridge into pedestrian trail

 

[stattlich1]

In addition, last year they announced widening it to 10 feet.
“The City of Delphi is working on the project as well. A $1.2 million grant from the state will help pave the trail, widen it 10 feet and help with soil erosion.”
$260K renovation underway to turn Delphi's Monon High Bridge into pedestrian trail

My interpretation of this is that it refers to the trail, not the bridge. It appears they intend to pave the trail, and also widen it 10 feet.

 

[JnRyan]

So early on, do you think they had an idea of where he came in or left? I don't think they knew about the vehicle at the CPS building the first day or so. My guess is that people found out about the murders and then started calling in tips or things they saw that day, alone with LE interviewing anyone at the reserve of course. I think the may concern at that point was to get all the different agencies in and around and to the crime scene. I know they didn't realize that it was so large, up to the bridge until they found the phone and then enlarged it. It really chaotic and intense when you first start analyzing your crime scene, there are so many factors and people and they had how many agencies there.... So if it was a mistake, it was hindsight and you go with what you have. I don't know what they would have gleaned from the cemetery in the way of evidence, maybe a tire track, or foot impressions, but foot impressions would be at the crime scene too.

And that maybe why in the latest HLN special, Sheriff Leazenby stated they could only speculate as to how and where the murderer left the crime scene. In fact, some of the searchers before they found Abigail and Liberty might have parked there. Add to that, Sheriff Leazenby stated he may have made a mistake by calling off the tracking dogs. As you point out, hindsight is 20-20.

 

[Skully]

And that maybe why in the latest HLN special, Sheriff Leazenby stated they could only speculate as to how and where the murderer left the crime scene. In fact, some of the searchers before they found Abigail and Liberty might have parked there. Add to that, Sheriff Leazenby stated he may have made a mistake by calling off the tracking dogs. As you point out, hindsight is 20-20.

Yes another good point, the searchers had to park somewhere.

 

[Skully]

I also think it's quite possible he was not hunting for a victim that day at all, but he saw them at whatever point and for whatever reason wanted to engage them. I don't think it necessarily took planning to corner them there, either, but I bet he knew he could if they crossed the bridge, because he was familiar.

This is JMO, and it's only me guessing at random, but I don't think he planned or prepared a kill site, hung trail cams, scoped out the trail for victims, stuffed his jacket full of fantasy items, or any other pre-mediated activity. I don't know why I think that, but I do. There's just as good a chance he did any of those things as not, but I can't see it.

I think in the space between the south end of the bridge and the creek, he got control and started his attack. I'm guessing L's shoe and phone and whatever else might have been lost during a struggle on the south side and whatever caused him to decide to take them across the creek was maybe an impulsive move to get them all out of sight. Or the girls ran that way. I don't know. If he left signatures, I think they were likely manifestations of his heightened state in that moment, and if things were "odd" it's because he's odd in his mentality, anyway. JMO

I don't think he put up cams either, but he came prepared. The common thought is that he had at least a gun to control them, a weapon to kill them other than a gun (no shots heard that we know of) maybe even a stun gun to get control of one of the girls so he could deal with the other. His jacket is full, you can see it. What's in the fanny pack? So I do think he was hunting that day. He most likely had hunted before but didn't get his victim, that day it lined up for him. JMO

 

[Angels27]

How much DNA can they get from a cigarette? And how could they tell it was fresh? If true, that evidence should be as good or better than the video and audio. The cigarette brand. The DNA. The fact that someone involved smoked. Unless it was from a searcher. Did they get close to where it was found? That’s the first I’ve heard of a cigarette. Thanks for posting that.

 

[Beachlife926]

When reviewing a location on google it informs you of the “popular times”. While looking at “Monon High Bridge Trail” the busiest times are the following for a Monday:
10am: usually a little busy
11am-2pm: usually not too busy
2pm-4pm: usually a little busy
4pm-6pm: usually not too busy
6pm-9pm: usually not busy

It was similar for other days too (except Tuesday, the more busy times were 12/1pm and Thursday at 4pm). All week days had the 2pm hour as “usually a little busy”.
IMO
My old job had a trail system nearby so during our lunch break people would often walk the trails and I assume show that location as busy since we all took our lunch at the same time. I wonder if any businesses in the area regularly take their lunch breaks during the more busy hours and are close enough to drive/walk to trail system.

 

[Skully]

When reviewing a location on google it informs you of the “popular times”. While looking at “Monon High Bridge Trail” the busiest times are the following for a Monday:
10am: usually a little busy
11am-2pm: usually not too busy
2pm-4pm: usually a little busy
4pm-6pm: usually not too busy
6pm-9pm: usually not busy

It was similar for other days too (except Tuesday, the more busy times were 12/1pm and Thursday at 4pm). All week days had the 2pm hour as “usually a little busy”.
IMO
My old job had a trail system nearby so during our lunch break people would often walk the trails and I assume show that location as busy since we all took our lunch at the same time. I wonder if any businesses in the area regularly take their lunch breaks during the more busy hours and are close enough to drive/walk to trail system.

But they had a "no school day", and it was unusually warm winter day. I would think that changed the numbers a little bit. I heard about 50 people that day, but again, when did they arrive, or leave. Ebb and flow. Either way, no one saw what he did. So sad.