Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[Angels Advocate]

Imagine the confidence (narcissism?) you would need to have if - and this is pure speculation - you were to park a vehicle on that main road, walk to the path via a different entrance than where the girls entered, stalk/follow/happen upon two girls at the end of the bridge, before completing the circle and taking off in whatever vehicle was parked. MOO, as I am making an educated guess based off the maps.

IMO, this is too slick a turnaround to be happenstance. You would need to know that area well, or have completed this 'circuit' before.

Now, if we adopt this scenario, then would the car at the CPS building be of interest anymore? Or would the focus need to be on that strip of road by the cemetery between the two properties?

Again, all MOO!

I agree.

 

[Angels Advocate]

The area south of the cemetery does feel like more than just a blocked access point to the real crime scene, imo, because it appears to be taped-off on three sides. It's obvious I'm open to considering there's an unknown CS farther east, but I do think the taped-off area is either it, or maybe where they crossed the creek (or both). I'm having a hard time, however, reconciling LE leaving the spot where two children died, on private property, taped-off for weeks after the the fact, but maybe that's normal procedure.

I also thought it was standard procedure to preserve the possible entrance and exit paths, as well, but it seems the cemetery wasn't considered that at the time of the investigation. That's odd to me, if the taped-off area is indeed the final CS, because of its proximity, but I'm not LE. Here's what TL said in the Comet Q&A:


Q. Are there regrets about not securing the Morning Heights Cemetery as a possible part of the crime scene (i.e. possible exit route of the killer(s)?

A. At the time, it was uncertain exactly what the “totality of the circumstances” were.
------

Q. There are many residents of the county that have never been on the trails, describe the terrain of where the girls were found? What is the most direct route out of the area they were found? How long of a walk from where they entered to where they were found?

A. Very similar to one of the state’s parks. A lot of hills, brush, trees, etc. Directly south of the Morning Heights Cemetery but on private property. I do not recall the specific distance.

“Totality of the circumstances” is a legal term of art and does not fit as an answer to that question. There is much more going on with this case.

 

[catch_22]

There was one picture, posted a few days ago, of the large taped-off area. There was an area that appeared to be somewhat in the center of the taped area that the ground looked different. The ground looked kinda bare, instead of covered by leaves. It is kinda hard to tell exactly what is going on at that spot, though. I think it is a decent chance that this is where the bodies were found.

JMO

 

[catch_22]

Dbm

 

[DeDee]

“Totality of the circumstances” is a legal term of art and does not fit as an answer to that question. There is much more going on with this case.

Instead of admitting to possible regrets, TLs stating LE didn't know what LE had on their hands in those early hours as far as a double homicide of not one but two little girls from their tiny town.

I'm not sure BG would have been arrested before now even if the Delphi Daughters had been found on Monday, even before dark.

RLs property would have been searched, if he'd been home. Instead, RL was out breaking parole violations when he was needed at his home to give permission for the searches on his land for these precious children.

What difference would it have made if they had been found on Monday opposed to Tuesday as for a better opportunity to nab BG?

 

[catch_22]

No, the circular divot is not the location.

If you look at this photo that had been posted by WTHR news, you can see the general area where they were - on the right hand side center just beyond the trees.

Found the post. Sorry, my quote didn't include the picture. Post #293 of this thread. Sunday 4/4/2021 at 6:15pm (time zone?).

 

[Jax49]

Found the post. Sorry, my quote didn't include the picture. Post #293 of this thread. Sunday 4/4/2021 at 6:15pm (time zone?).

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

 

[MistyWaters]

There was one picture, posted a few days ago, of the large taped-off area. There was an area that appeared to be somewhat in the center of the taped area that the ground looked different. The ground looked kinda bare, instead of covered by leaves. It is kinda hard to tell exactly what is going on at that spot, though. I think it is a decent chance that this is where the bodies were found.

JMO

My question is how can it be known what area is the centre when no photo reveals the entire length of the crime scene tape?

In the photo the river isn’t visible. That’s because RLs residence is at a much higher elevation above the creek. The crime scene tape definitely isn’t at creek level making it impossible to see what’s 50 feet from the creek bank.

I would think the reason the tape was placed there was to protect and secure from sight the location where the bodies were found. Surely LE wouldn’t have wanted RL venturing into his “backyard” along with a gaggle of reporters observing the crime scene being processed. The “do not cross” crime scene tape prevents him or anyone else from venturing further. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

With real life crime cases, even after the perpetrator is convicted there’s always a lot unanswered questions, unfortunately. That’s the difference between fictional books or movies where by the end it’s satisfying when all the loose ends are tied together.

So something I try to remember is LE have given the public only as much information as they believe will lead to the identification of the killer. Their objective of releasing information is not to enable us to recreate the crime. Hopefully that’ll happen in front of a jury in a courtroom in the upcoming future, maybe well before the end of 2022.

“We still have the up and down days is the best way to put it," Sheriff Leazenby said. "My term ends in 2022 - would love nothing more than to see someone convicted of this crime before I am out of office."..”
Delphi Murders Update 2021: Reward in 2017 killings of 2 Indiana teens Abby Williams, Libby German grows to $325K | abc7chicago.com

Snipped by me...
“We still have the up and down days is the best way to put it," Sheriff Leazenby said. "My term ends in 2022 - would love nothing more than to see someone convicted of this crime before I am out of office."..”

I'm not truly not trying to read into Sheriff Leazenby's words overly much. He chose his words and to me saying by 2022 he'd love to see someone convicted is not something you'd probably say if you had no clear suspect at all. I'd reckon it would be more, "love nothing more than to see someone arrested for this crime before I'm out of office."

I take heart in his words and pray his words do mean LE are not at square one and have a clear suspect. AJMO

 

[Boxer]

I think the reason they started much further upstream than the body location is as simple as not knowing how far north or east the girls may have been. At the time they didn’t know how the girls got where they were.

Another possibility is that they saw evidence of someone (BG) having traveled in that direction. IIRC those pics were taken on the afternoon of the 14th. Very little was known at that point.

Isnt there a fairly recent comment by the Sheriff that the killer left through the woods?

 

[sunshineray]

Here’s another photo of the crime scene tape.

The tape goes out of view into the distance running parallel beneath the top of the ridge.


View attachment 292103
As investigation of Indiana teens' mysterious murder enters 4th week, tips pour in and reward surges

This might help with orientation? The picture at the top of this article is the first one I've seen facing away from the inland taped off crime scene looking down towards the creek.

Police question multiple people in Delphi girls' murders - WISH-TV | Indianapolis News | Indiana Weather | Indiana Traffic

 

[Ekliptika]

What difference would it have made if they had been found on Monday opposed to Tuesday as for a better opportunity to nab BG?

One thing that immediately comes to my mind is forensic evidence. If there were DNA traces, I tend to believe that the sooner you find the bodies, the bigger chance of retrieving DNA evidence, especially in this case being outside and evidence was prone to the elements.

 

[Jethro4WS]

Some of the photos that I’ve noticed show one corner of crime scene tape but never the other. In this video there’s glimpses of crime scene tape running into the far distance - the area taped off is most definitely far larger than just a small square. Maybe it ran a narrow path along the entire mile of RLs property along the creek bank. No way would RL have the ability to identify the exact location and I don’t think that was ever his intention. I think he was just pointing out crime scene tape located on his property and people automatically jumped to the conclusion the bodies were found wherever the reporters pointed their camera.

Delphi, Indiana Murders: Reward in 2017 killings of 2 teens grows to $325K

The first attachment is the photo with RL's dog and the cameraman further down. It shows the north side of the crime scene marked off from the northwest corner to almost the northeast side (left). You can make out at the left of the image the crime scene tape going down the east side. The second attachment is a photo taken by the media taken nearer the north side tape that completely shows the northeast corner of the crime scene. Between the two images the length across is likely 150-200 feet.

Finally, this video of mostly raw footage by WXIN (Fox 59) shows various parts of the crime scene area. Pertinent to see the other (east side) the video begins with the reporter and RL at the east side down near the creek but doesn't show much of anything however the next sequence beginning around 10 seconds has the camera at the west side edge (closer to the north end rather than the south) looking across to the east side and then the camera pans left (toward the north) where it eventually shows almost all of the north side.

WXIN- A look around the woods near the Delphi Historic Trail.mp4

 

[Jethro4WS]

BBM

So this is the map I use to help me judge grade. Obviously it can't replace surveying the area in person, but it's the best I can find.

Go to IndianaMAP
On there you can choose a number of different mappings. Go to the Layer Gallery - that is where I pull my LIDAR _ Topo images from. Add the layers you want and then in the search box change the drop down from address to city/location and enter Delphi and the map will zoom to that area. Then move east to get to the creek area and you can then do other things like add in hydrology layers for example, and you can change the opacity of each layer to produce what you want.

 

[news buff]

I know that the man whose property Abby and Libby were found on was said to have been cleared but it boggles the mind that this man was gone to a dump when they were looking for the girls, when he was nearly off probation and not allowed to drive. Property owner also went drinking another probation violation on that very same day. Something or someone made him break his probation on that very day.

 

[stattlich1]

THIS is what constantly wracks my brain!
If he entered from there, how would he have gotten to the opposite side of the bridge, coming towards the girls? Is there something I can't see from the (many, many) maps I've looked at?

It's a rather straight shot from the cemetery area to the NW side of the bridge. If I recall there's a path that goes across there, not that one would need it though. No crossing the creek needed. Plus it affords a decent view of the area. A person can view the bridge from numerous points along the way and likely even the trail leading up to it. Without ever being detected.

I think a person could visually determine void of people the entire route from the cemetery, down to the CS, across the creek to the SE side of the bridge, across the bridge to the NW side, and even back the trail a ways, all from taking this route from the cemetery, across the high ground, to the NW side of the bridge.

 

[Yemelyan]

I know that the man whose property Abby and Libby were found on was said to have been cleared but it boggles the mind that this man was gone to a dump when they were looking for the girls, when he was nearly off probation and not allowed to drive. Property owner also went drinking another probation violation on that very same day. Something or someone made him break his probation on that very day.

I believe the drinking violation was a different day, actually - February 27th.

See this article: https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/del...-to-charges-unrelated-to-delphi-teens-murders

 

[rainwaterstill]

Why haven’t they questioned the person that they’d like to speak with?

Just MOO, but maybe because that person is a minor, LE would need parent permission tpo speak with them, and the parent(s) are refusing to give permission?

 

[Ekliptika]

THIS is what constantly wracks my brain!
If he entered from there, how would he have gotten to the opposite side of the bridge, coming towards the girls? Is there something I can't see from the (many, many) maps I've looked at?

Someone has made a video of the walk from where the trail ends and the bridge starts, walking along the north shore of the creek to the supposed crime scene South of the cementary. The video is on YouTube. It’s not a Long walk, 5-10 mins if I recall and in my opinion does not look like a difficult walk at all.

 

[Ekliptika]

THIS is what constantly wracks my brain!
If he entered from there, how would he have gotten to the opposite side of the bridge, coming towards the girls? Is there something I can't see from the (many, many) maps I've looked at?

I sometimes wonder if he came from the South side entering the area using the private drive, either on foot or if he had a vehicle parked there that he was trying to get one or both girls to. Why they crossed the creek I do not know. Maybe the girls ran or maybe he intentionally led them there as a planned action. And I wonder if he crossed back over the creek to the South side when he was leaving the area and lost Libby’s shoe (if he intended to take this as a trophy). Just my own speculation trying to look for a different/alternative scenario/theory that I do not see discussed, but maybe it has been in the past threads. I am not fixed on this theory but like to consider alternatives.