Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[Argonaut]

Concerning bruises on the wrist and the difficulty of dragging a 200 lb. person, and controlling both of them at once: Suppose the girls were hand cuffed or 'wire tied' and a rope attached to the ties. BG could then pull the rope and the girls would be forced by pain to follow along. It would be pretty easy for BG to then have both of the girls follow him as he administered pain by pulling on the cuffs. Maybe the larger girl fell a few times and was even dragged somewhat by the cuffs until she got back up on her feet. Just tossing it out there.

 

[WildHuncher]

Concerning bruises on the wrist and the difficulty of dragging a 200 lb. person, and controlling both of them at once: Suppose the girls were hand cuffed or 'wire tied' and a rope attached to the ties. BG could then pull the rope and the girls would be forced by pain to follow along. It would be pretty easy for BG to then have both of the girls follow him as he administered pain by pulling on the cuffs. Maybe the larger girl fell a few times and was even dragged somewhat by the cuffs until she got back up on her feet. Just tossing it out there.

Those plastic ratcheting ties are a possibility. Police use those and anyone can buy them. But without the rope, that wouldn't stop anyone from running.

 

[Yemelyan]

And it makes me wonder if the girls were not killed where they were found, but the owners of the initial place got scared on finding two bodies and hastily moved them at night. (Panic makes people do weird stuff. Especially if those people, for example, already had an open case against them.) So in this situation, the CS that was processed was not the original CS. This would enormously complicate the case and yes, in this case the original perpetrator doesn’t need to be smart at all, he is just incredibly lucky. And LE did everything by the book, it is just an unlucky case for them. And one could prosecute the ones who had tampered with the original scene, but never get to the killer.

Snipped by me...

Regarding the bolded, LE has said that scenario is not a possibility. We already know the following facts directly from LE:

Q. Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?

A. Based on information known, yes.

Source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

And:
Q. Do you know if the girls were found where they were killed or if they were moved post mortem?

A. Answered previously. Found where they were killed.

Source: Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet

 

[Marzipan]

Yes this occurred back in August, 2017.

Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family | wthr.com

“State police say more audio from Libby German's cell phone was played for the victims' families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them.

Police say the girls mostly talk about "stuff girls talk about" in the recording, but they also mention the man. The only audio that has been released to the public from the phone is that of a man's voice ordering German and her friend, Abby Williams, "down the hill."..”

The girls may have shot other video clips that day. Maybe they mention the man (and other people) in clips separate from that final video. Or in other content they could have recovered working with Snapchat. Who knows if LE has or has not had them watch and listen to other clips from that phone and that day.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I have heard/read reporters saying "the family has heard more...." or "the family told me they listened to more..." but I haven't heard a family member actually say that. And definitely not LE.

Anna Williams briefly discusses seeing / hearing the additional audio/video in the ID special. She says Libby says "the path ends here so we can’t go any farther.” And that it didn’t reveal much of their actual feelings, because you can’t hear or see anything. But nothing more can be revealed since the info would only be known to the killer.

Here's a clip.
Still a Mystery ID Additional Audio

 

[steeltowngirl]

Short answer - yes, IMO.

Long answer - DNA admixtures, when the overall quantity of DNA from different contributors are very small, are sometimes still tricky for forensic specialists to analyze. It helps if there is, for example, a little bit of male perpetrator DNA and a lot of female victim DNA - then you can use specific primers to amplify just the male DNA and get enough of it to test. But sometimes you have many more contributors than that, or sometimes pieces of fragmented DNA with portions of it dropped out. Then it can be hard to determine which contributor that fragment may have belonged to. Or is it a separate contributor entirely?

People do not want to hear this, but there does come a time in some cases where there are admixtures with low contributor quantity (or large numbers of contributors) where there is subjective input on the part of the person doing the analysis.

Edited to add - this isn't necessarily all due to "scene contamination," though certainly that is a factor. Some of this is just due to the sensitivity with which DNA can be detected these days and the fact that we are all walking around awash in other people's DNA from casual and incidental contact.

All MOO.

You had provided us with this very helpful article in the past. DNA Mixtures: A Forensic Science Explainer

I still have it bookmarked, so I’m re-sharing it again here. I really appreciate your knowledge and insight on this complex topic.

 

[Charlot123]

Snipped by me...

Regarding the bolded, LE has said that scenario is not a possibility. We already know the following facts directly from LE:

Q. Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?

A. Based on information known, yes.

Source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

And:
Q. Do you know if the girls were found where they were killed or if they were moved post mortem?

A. Answered previously. Found where they were killed.

Source: Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet

Very possible. I am under the impression that DC is dying to tell more, but can’t.

But since it is a “complex” case, and I fully believe it; likewise, I don’t think we know what “twist” TL mentioned, I have to ask myself what these two or three arms could be. OK, if the girls were killed there and not moved, then I wonder what happened at the place postmortem.

I feel the twist was some change. If not of the CS, then, of participants?

I think the change of sketches indicates that there was some twist of the plot.

I hope they find the rascal.

 

[MistyWaters]

Very possible. I am under the impression that DC is dying to tell more, but can’t.

But since it is a “complex” case, and I fully believe it; likewise, I don’t think we know what “twist” TL mentioned, I have to ask myself what these two or three arms could be. OK, if the girls were killed there and not moved, then I wonder what happened at the place postmortem.

I feel the twist was some change. If not of the CS, then, of participants?

I think the change of sketches indicates that there was some twist of the plot.

I hope they find the rascal.

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. Can you elaborate about your reference to this case as having a “twist” that you have never seen before? Is it something more than Libby audio recording and videotaping their assailant(s)?

A. One of the main “twists” is that Carroll County has had a high success rate of finding missing persons. For this case to have the initial outcome was nothing we, even as seasoned veterans, expected.

 

[FrostedGlass]

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. Can you elaborate about your reference to this case as having a “twist” that you have never seen before? Is it something more than Libby audio recording and videotaping their assailant(s)?

A. One of the main “twists” is that Carroll County has had a high success rate of finding missing persons. For this case to have the initial outcome was nothing we, even as seasoned veterans, expected.

The part I bolded... I never realized there was more than one twist.

The whole twist thing really irritated me after we learned what it was. They could have just said they were expecting a missing person case and did not expect it to be a double murder. I guess "twist" gave us more to think about.

 

[155etta]

If one accepts the supposed insider scoop that Libby was dragged a long way and got massively bruised in the process, the implication is that Abby was in some fashion out of commission during this time. Dead, unconscious, or bound. "Bound" strikes me as having the same problem as dragging. While you tie one up, the other gets away, claws at your eyes, whatever.

I'm at about 50-50 on whether "insider" is really an insider. Wish we had a clearer report.

Unless you point a weapon at both and have one tie up the other? Couldn't bruises on LG's wrists be from straining and pulling against the restraints? Possibly when something was being done to AW. Maybe not from dragging at all. MOO.

 

[WildHuncher]

Unless you point a weapon at both and have one tie up the other? Couldn't bruises on LG's wrists be from straining and pulling against the restraints? Possibly when something was being done to AW. Maybe not from dragging at all. MOO.

You'd think they could tell ligature marks from hard-hand-gripping bruises. Then again, all this is hearsay of hearsay, so who knows?

 

[Falling Down]

I think someone's video equipment captured BG from a distance. Just like DG was captured arriving, maybe BG was seen already on the trail or coming out of the woodland border over by that sign, pausing there. ISP Carter sounds like he's stating a straight-up fact, not a conjecture. IMO

1. We know how DG arrived.

2. LE have not told the public how BG left.

Good post.

 

[Yemelyan]

The part I bolded... I never realized there was more than one twist.

The whole twist thing really irritated me after we learned what it was. They could have just said they were expecting a missing person case and did not expect it to be a double murder. I guess "twist" gave us more to think about.

When I read his answer to the "twist" question in the Comet Q&A it blew my mind because I never would have guessed that was what he meant by it. Then shortly afterwards I re-listened to the Down the Hill podcast, and TL also explains what the twist is in one of his interviews. It was, I believe at the end of episode 2 when he is discussing finding out that their bodies were discovered and the outcome was not what he expected. That was the "twist" - he expected to find them alive. His thoughts on that had already been out there for over a year and I never even realized that he had explained it before.

 

[sunshineray]

The part I bolded... I never realized there was more than one twist.

The whole twist thing really irritated me after we learned what it was. They could have just said they were expecting a missing person case and did not expect it to be a double murder. I guess "twist" gave us more to think about.

But he answered, "For this case to have the initial outcome was nothing we, even as seasoned veterans, expected."

I can't believe he as a seasoned law enforcement, a Sheriff of a whole county, didn't consider something nefarious, not an unfortunate happenstance, something horrible done on purpose had happened to the "missing" girls. I don't buy that in this day and age, that abduction/homicide wasn't even considered.

That seems much too much Pollyanna-ish subconscious thinking for a "seasoned [LE] veteran". AJMO

The word "initial" next to "outcome" makes no sense since the outcome was seen immediately upon discovery and there was no further outcome. It was what it was, homicide. A horrific enough double homicide that these seasoned LE made numerous comments about how terrible it was to see. Carter's (paraphrasing) "I assure you how you left them in those woods is not what they're experiencing now" as just one. AJMO

 

[minazoe]

the " twist" is so annoying because really what is the twist?

Really you guys know me I..I love a loaded statement full of portent and hidden meaning..but the twist is annoying...because I don't think it means anything. I don't think there is a twist.

except maybe BG shaved and changed his appearance before he left the park and that's why
there are two sketches and that once he changes his appearance he looks like a completely different person and may have been in that park for 20 minutes while the girls names are being called , and may have been seen..of course no one had the phone yet..but he could have gone in looking one way and and been seen again looking completely different and both sketches are him.

other than this..there is no twist I can make out...unless they think an LE officer did this crime..
that would be a twist..it would be ironic..but I don't think they think that.

I cant wait for charges to be pressed and to hear the truth about how it all went down..

mOO

 

[MistyWaters]

the " twist" is so annoying because really what is the twist?

Really you guys know me I..I love a loaded statement full of portent and hidden meaning..but the twist is annoying...because I don't think it means anything. I don't think there is a twist.

except maybe BG shaved and changed his appearance before he left the park and that's why
there are two sketches and that once he changes his appearance he looks like a completely different person and may have been in that park for 20 minutes while the girls names are being called , and may have been seen..of course no one had the phone yet..but he could have gone in looking one way and and been seen again looking completely different and both sketches are him.

other than this..there is no twist I can make out...unless they think an LE officer did this crime..
that would be a twist..it would be ironic..but I don't think they think that.

I cant wait for charges to be pressed and to hear the truth about how it all went down..

mOO

Many of the past theories about “the twist” assume LE solved the crime on day one and they were dishing out clues to the general public to deliberately affirm or dispute speculation, in essence playing a reality game of Clue around a real life tragic murder of two teen girls. Now more than four years later, no charges laid, that just can’t be true. If LE knew the perpetrator was disguised and both sketches they would release in the future were of the same person, what’s the point of going to great lengths to dispute that given the likeness of each or even both sketches can’t be established?

 

[JnRyan]

I suspect what LE in Carroll County would consider a "twist" would be from the view of someone who sees crime in that area. What they consider a twist might be something not new to an NYPD or Chicago LE member.

 

[MistyWaters]

I suspect what LE in Carroll County would consider a "twist" would be from the view of someone who sees crime in that area. What they consider a twist might be something not new to an NYPD or Chicago LE member.

I agree, murder and abduction definitely wasn’t a common occurrence in Delphi, it was considered a safe community. The ex-mayor, 30-ish something, hired to the prosecutors office said he was in high school when the last murder occurred. I’d guess if it was about numbers that are common to virtually everywhere, far more teens are reported missing and then later turn up safe and sound, than teen abductions/homicides. For that reason, rather than TL suspecting a serious crime had occurred, he was more than likely thinking “we were all young once, they’ll come home and face the wrath in the morning”.

JMO

 

[heartgoesout]

Who was murdered when Sean Evans was in HS?

 

[Yemelyan]

I agree, murder and abduction definitely wasn’t a common occurrence in Delphi, it was considered a safe community. The ex-mayor, 30-ish something, hired to the prosecutors office said he was in high school when the last murder occurred. I’d guess if it was about numbers that are common to virtually everywhere, far more teens are reported missing and then later turn up safe and sound, than teen abductions/homicides. For that reason, rather than TL suspecting a serious crime had occurred, he was more than likely thinking “we were all young once, they’ll come home and face the wrath in the morning”.

JMO

Abby's mom has talked in more than one interview (the Hebert one linked upthread, also Scene of the Crime and Down the Hill podcasts, possibly others) about how sure she was that the girls were just misbehaving - evidently nothing nefarious crossed her mind about abduction or murder while they were missing. She relates that she said to many people the night that they were missing, "these two are going to be so grounded" "I can't wait until we can talk to these two grounded girls" etc (I'm paraphrasing her words). So that's another Delphi resident for whom serious crime wasn't on the radar compared to all the known hijinks that kids get up to. I'm not passing any kind of judgment on her attitude towards likely outcomes; she lives there and it was her experience that the community was safe.