Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Some posts have been removed and this post lands at random.

When someone has been cleared by LE and is a non POI/suspect, members are not allowed to make insinuations about their involvement or make direct or indirect accusations against them.

 

[taylorss]

Any eyewitnesses who worked with the artist in producing the sketches could be sworn in for a courtroom finger point.

It's one thing to say someone looks like a sketch; doesn't put them at the crime scene. Get someone under oath in a court of law saying, "THAT's the man I saw on the trail that day, yes! At about 1:50 PM! Headed down toward the bridge!" Do that and you're putting the defendant close to the crime if not at that spot down the hill.

We know the sketches have eyewitness input. We don't know if anyone is sure enough to sit in court and swear, "That's HIM beyond any doubt."

Ahh yes, thanks, this is a good one!! I put those bewildering sketches so firmly on “ignore” that I forgot all about them!

hardly likely to be a slam-dunk .... and given that LE know who provided info for sketches, this aspect of investigation shouldn’t have taken too long to run down ... but still, good idea!!

ETA random typo

 

[FrostedGlass]

Does anyone remember watching a video a few months ago of KG and a few other people who she’d agree to host for a trail walk? I think it was posted on HLN or one of its sister websites. What stood out for me was her mentioning a different path in the immediate area of the bridge. Was it on the same webpage as a HLN contributor whom we noticed got a couple of basic facts mixed up?

If I recall correctly the small group walked right past the closed off bridge entrance and KG mentioned this was a path she’d walked with Libby not long before the tragedy. I know I’m not dreaming and I will continue to look for the video because I’m curious if anyone can figure out it’s location.

I haven't seen that video but AG has a recent one where they took the 505 trail and then took a little path over to 501. The 505 is a bit more scenic, imo, because it runs parallel to the creek.

The video was taken for a May 8 Memorial Walk and he had some really good drone footage of the creek area of the north end of the bridge.

I always wondered where the girls were positioned at the south end when they took BG's video. I thought the top cement slab was too low to stand on but now I'm thinking that's exactly where they were. If that's correct, he absolutely had them trapped, with nowhere to go except down the hill.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

Respectfully snipped because this part of the post resonated with me...

If you follow the Molly Bish case out of Massachusetts, which is similar to Delphi in that a young girl was abducted and later found dead in a wooded area, you may know that yesterday after many years a suspect was finally announced in the case. This individual died in 2016 but has been under posthumous investigation for about three years now. Some people are saying things like "I don't understand why LE wait until these people are dead to announce that the case is resolved. Have they messed up the investigation so bad that they are they just pinning it on a dead person to close the case, or...?" For this particular suspect, the tips that were corroborated apparently didn't come in until after he died. And the most likely reason for that, is that whoever had information on him - probably a member of his family - did not want to deal with the repercussions and potential interpersonal strife over tipping him while he was alive.

So how does this relate to Delphi? We have to hope that if there is someone out there with information on the Delphi killer, whether that's something that they definitely know because they recognize him, or whether that's because they are thinking about a story from around the time of the murders that now doesn't add up, that they are willing to risk turning this tip in. Because sometimes it truly is not easy for people with information to make that leap, as it could change everything about their world as they know it if they are correct.

While I can understand why that would be a thing, I can't imagine living with the guilt of knowing something about a suspect and never having told The police.

 

[MistyWaters]

While I can understand why that would be a thing, I can't imagine living with the guilt of knowing something about a suspect and never having told The police.

I think it would depend if this person knew beyond a doubt the guilty person was involved - or if they just had vague suspicions.

Emotional denial can be a powerful defence mechanism. I would imagine it could be similar to a person who’s partner is involved in an extramarital affair - the spouse noticing different behaviour and unusual situations but at the same time convincing themselves nothing is wrong, it must be all in their head. Or a parent of a child who’s attempting to hide their involvement with unsavoury characters. Denial protects us as we typically do not actively welcome shock, fear, despair, upheaval or drama into our personal lives.

The family and LE continue to devote commendable effort to sustain focus on this case through the media rather than allowing the case to be forgotten. Perhaps these efforts will prove key in eventually motivating another person to acknowledge their suspicions at some point in the future?

JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

++

There was a Hollandsburg IN massacre on Valentines Day in 1977 by a guy and his three friends who was said to have idolized Charles Manson. A s t r e t c h but another Manson fan on a 4oth anniversary?

1977 Hollandsburg massacre left 4 dead, survivor to testify

Might be, if the killer is a true crime freak and has a thing with numbers/date. Who knows? Though the Delphi crime took place on the 13th of the month.

 

[Yemelyan]

While I can understand why that would be a thing, I can't imagine living with the guilt of knowing something about a suspect and never having told The police.

It's all due to denial, which is a powerful thing. @MistyWaters explained it perfectly.

 

[carbuff]

I think it would depend if this person knew beyond a doubt the guilty person was involved - or if they just had vague suspicions.

Emotional denial can be a powerful defence mechanism. I would imagine it could be similar to a person who’s partner is involved in an extramarital affair - the spouse noticing different behaviour and unusual situations but at the same time convincing themselves nothing is wrong, it must be all in their head. Or a parent of a child who’s attempting to hide their involvement with unsavoury characters. Denial protects us as we typically do not actively welcome shock, fear, despair, upheaval or drama into our personal lives.

The family and LE continue to devote commendable effort to sustain focus on this case through the media rather than allowing the case to be forgotten. Perhaps these efforts will prove key in eventually motivating another person to acknowledge their suspicions at some point in the future?

JMO

If the person they suspect is a violent abusive individual who is always gaslighting the possible witness, that would reinforce the "it must be my imagination" belief.

 

[carbuff]

There was a Hollandsburg IN massacre on Valentines Day in 1977 by a guy and his three friends who was said to have idolized Charles Manson. A s t r e t c h but another Manson fan on a 4oth anniversary?

1977 Hollandsburg massacre left 4 dead, survivor to testify

Huh. That's a really intriguing thing to think about. Right off the top of my head I can't think of any possible connection, but stranger things have happened. And I guess if a Manson crazy (and they do exist) heard about the case, they wouldn't necessarily have any obvious connection to either crime.

 

[SMK777]

If the person they suspect is a violent abusive individual who is always gaslighting the possible witness, that would reinforce the "it must be my imagination" belief.

Excellent point. And imagine if you were mistaken, and your gaslighting and violent husband was cleared, and free to take it out on you for falsely accusing him.

I guess this is why LE said at the presser, We will protect you [if you come forward]. But how can they protect you if you’re mistaken and the person is cleared?

 

[carbuff]

Excellent point. And imagine if you were mistaken, and your gaslighting and violent husband was cleared, and free to take it out on you for falsely accusing him.

I guess this is why LE said at the presser, We will protect you [if you come forward]. But how can they protect you if you’re mistaken and the person is cleared?

Yeah, exactly.

And what if the person has violent friends or relatives who the potential witness thinks might retaliate as well?

 

[Ravenmoon]

If LE were to release more evidence, I’m curious what’s an hypothetical piece presently being withheld which would assist a family member or friend in immediately identifying him?

I can’t think of a good example at all. If there’s anything so leading that’s being withheld, I’d think LE would’ve solved this case by now without the need for the continual ask for tips to assist with the identification of the suspect.

If something was removed from the victims~
Hair, clothing, an odd object, jewelry,etc.
Maybe that bit of information should be made public.
Someone out there may have seen the perpetrator in possession of said item.

Maybe a bigger long shot would be releasing information about his footprint- size, brand(could be found if the sole imprints are good) .

AMOO JMO MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

Excellent point. And imagine if you were mistaken, and your gaslighting and violent husband was cleared, and free to take it out on you for falsely accusing him.

I guess this is why LE said at the presser, We will protect you [if you come forward]. But how can they protect you if you’re mistaken and the person is cleared?

Yes, very good question.

I think by the time any person begins suspecting a friend, relative or spouse of murder, that relationship must’ve reached the point of being severed due to trust issues but easy to say, often hard to do especially if it involves breaking apart a family. Anybody just press “send” to submit a tip on a stranger, no big deal, they won’t be interacting with the possible suspect on a personal basis later today, next week or next month. It would be far more complicated if it involves any sort of personal relationship.

I’ve also had a thought - what if a potential suspect was at a low point around Feb/17 involving illegal drugs, alcohol, unemployment or any other personal personal crisis and since then received treatment to successfully clean up his act? Would a family member with suspicions be inclined to want to stand in the way of that recovery, especially if they were the sort who believed he had become a “different person”….

JMO

 

[kimbella]

Does anyone remember watching a video a few months ago of KG and a few other people who she’d agree to host for a trail walk? I think it was posted on HLN or one of its sister websites. What stood out for me was her mentioning a different path in the immediate area of the bridge. Was it on the same webpage as a HLN contributor whom we noticed got a couple of basic facts mixed up?

If I recall correctly the small group walked right past the closed off bridge entrance and KG mentioned this was a path she’d walked with Libby not long before the tragedy. I know I’m not dreaming and I will continue to look for the video because I’m curious if anyone can figure out it’s location.

There is a second trail - the 505 trail. If you're walking towards the bridge from where the girls were dropped off, the 505 trail turns off to the right. For a while, it runs parallel to the main 501 trail, but then curves further to the right and down towards the creek and a nature preserve.
It's somewhat visible in satellite images when the trees are bare.

 

[Elle*Bee]

If something was removed from the victims~
Hair, clothing, an odd object, jewelry,etc.
Maybe that bit of information should be made public.
Someone out there may have seen the perpetrator in possession of said item.

Maybe a bigger long shot would be releasing information about his footprint- size, brand(could be found if the sole imprints are good) .

AMOO JMO MOO

On the flip side, if the perpetrator took something - as a trophy or memento - he will likely get rid of it as soon as LE mentions it. However, if LE doesn't let on that they know about the item and it's found in the suspected perp's possession, that would strengthen the case against him. Speaking hypothetically, of course.

 

[SMK777]

Yeah, exactly.

And what if the person has violent friends or relatives who the potential witness thinks might retaliate as well?

Good point. Even if he’s guilty and put in jail, these may come after you to prevent you from testifying at trial.

 

[SMK777]

I’ve also had a thought - what if a potential suspect was at a low point around Feb/17 involving illegal drugs, alcohol, unemployment or any other personal personal crisis and since then received treatment to successfully clean up his act? Would a family member with suspicions be inclined to want to stand in the way of that recovery, especially if they were the sort who believed he had become a “different person”….

That’s another good point to be taken into consideration.

 

[MistyWaters]

If something was removed from the victims~
Hair, clothing, an odd object, jewelry,etc.
Maybe that bit of information should be made public.
Someone out there may have seen the perpetrator in possession of said item.

Maybe a bigger long shot would be releasing information about his footprint- size, brand(could be found if the sole imprints are good) .

AMOO JMO MOO

The thing is we don’t know if LE is holding back anything more that would aid in someone recognizing the suspect. We’d just like to think that maybe are….which more or less insinuates LE is responsible for a lack of an arrest. But considering the professional expertise invested into solving this case, including ISP and FBI, I just can’t believe police incompetence is even an issue. As there were no 911 calls, nobody witnessed the murders, the bodies weren’t discovered immediately nor were they transported anywhere else, it was an outdoor crime scene, so far we don’t know that the suspect told anyone or was assisted, and perhaps a full DNA profile was not recovered - unfortunately altogether it becomes a difficult case to solve.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

Respectfully snipped because this part of the post resonated with me...

If you follow the Molly Bish case out of Massachusetts, which is similar to Delphi in that a young girl was abducted and later found dead in a wooded area, you may know that yesterday after many years a suspect was finally announced in the case. This individual died in 2016 but has been under posthumous investigation for about three years now. Some people are saying things like "I don't understand why LE wait until these people are dead to announce that the case is resolved. Have they messed up the investigation so bad that they are they just pinning it on a dead person to close the case, or...?" For this particular suspect, the tips that were corroborated apparently didn't come in until after he died. And the most likely reason for that, is that whoever had information on him - probably a member of his family - did not want to deal with the repercussions and potential interpersonal strife over tipping him while he was alive.

So how does this relate to Delphi? We have to hope that if there is someone out there with information on the Delphi killer, whether that's something that they definitely know because they recognize him, or whether that's because they are thinking about a story from around the time of the murders that now doesn't add up, that they are willing to risk turning this tip in. Because sometimes it truly is not easy for people with information to make that leap, as it could change everything about their world as they know it if they are correct.

Very well thought-out post, thank you.

 

[Falling Down]

I haven't seen that video but AG has a recent one where they took the 505 trail and then took a little path over to 501. The 505 is a bit more scenic, imo, because it runs parallel to the creek.

The video was taken for a May 8 Memorial Walk and he had some really good drone footage of the creek area of the north end of the bridge.

I always wondered where the girls were positioned at the south end when they took BG's video. I thought the top cement slab was too low to stand on but now I'm thinking that's exactly where they were. If that's correct, he absolutely had them trapped, with nowhere to go except down the hill.

I took a path last Fall from the lower trail to the main trail, a really easy path and you can see each trail from one another towards the top of the lower trail, anyway. That path led to the fence barrier on the main trail.

The woods are dense in parts and not too dense in others.