Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[Barbieshell]

I pretty much agree with all this, except maybe the importance of the “couple under the bridge” statement. Just my opinion, but I really don’t think it matters one way or another.
I think LE was correct early on to keep things to themselves, but four years later, that needs to change, because it’s not working. My thought is if LE would hold back two or three things to prevent false confessions, then release everything they have, this case would be solved within a month. LE wants a family member or friend of BG to come forward with who he is. Sometimes if you want someone to show their hand, you have to show yours first.
Just my thoughts.

Yeah I honestly think they need to release just a bit more, like say a few of the odd things found at the crime scene (nothing gratuitous, we don't need to know COD or how they were found / what was done to the girls etc).

 

[SMK777]

I think LE was correct early on to keep things to themselves, but four years later, that needs to change, because it’s not working

Exactly. Bingo.

 

[SMK777]

I think BG is sitting in jail right now. mOO

He may well be. But if it’s JBC, they need a solid link to connect him.

 

[MistyWaters]

I pretty much agree with all this, except maybe the importance of the “couple under the bridge” statement. Just my opinion, but I really don’t think it matters one way or another.
I think LE was correct early on to keep things to themselves, but four years later, that needs to change, because it’s not working. My thought is if LE would hold back two or three things to prevent false confessions, then release everything they have, this case would be solved within a month. LE wants a family member or friend of BG to come forward with who he is. Sometimes if you want someone to show their hand, you have to show yours first.
Just my thoughts.

If LE were to release more evidence, I’m curious what’s an hypothetical piece presently being withheld which would assist a family member or friend in immediately identifying him?

I can’t think of a good example at all. If there’s anything so leading that’s being withheld, I’d think LE would’ve solved this case by now without the need for the continual ask for tips to assist with the identification of the suspect.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

The only semi-safe way to "get under the bridge" is from the SE end. Which is 850 feet and difficult to see from the NW end.

Correct. It doesn't matter what was said. There is no underneath the bridge on the north side. The creek is in the way. A very wide creek, in that area. That's the crux of the matter. There is no walking path across the creek at ground level.

There was considerable fortification done to the pillar on the north side a couple of years ago, requiring a crane and Bobcat. We have no photos of it or videos of that progress because the area is so difficult to access. That in itself should be a hint. If they had done the same type of work to a foundation below the south side of the bridge then <Modsnip> and all the other regulars or semi-regulars would have been out there multiple times documenting it and commenting on it.

This is not a park. I think that's what throws people off. Too many followers of the case want to view it like Falls Park on the Reedy in Greenville, South Carolina, a gorgeous tourist area with regular visitation and people cavorting underneath the bridge while bridge walkers relax and look down on them.

Monon High Bridge Trail is not 1% of that. An older woman like Becky Patty if she lived in Greenville would visit Falls Park on the Reedy many times per year, just like most people in town. Instead she lives in Delphi and has no idea about the particulars of Monon High Bridge Trail. When Derrick repeats to her what Flannel Shirt Guy said, Becky takes the phrase "down by the bridge" and wrongly interprets it to mean "underneath." The wrongful interpretation can extend months and years, including when she is a guest of Gray Hughes. The family is stunned. There is no reason for them to piece everything together including exact words and times and interpretation. We've seen that countless times, primarily from Kelsi.

 

[MistyWaters]

Does anyone remember watching a video a few months ago of KG and a few other people who she’d agree to host for a trail walk? I think it was posted on HLN or one of its sister websites. What stood out for me was her mentioning a different path in the immediate area of the bridge. Was it on the same webpage as a HLN contributor whom we noticed got a couple of basic facts mixed up?

If I recall correctly the small group walked right past the closed off bridge entrance and KG mentioned this was a path she’d walked with Libby not long before the tragedy. I know I’m not dreaming and I will continue to look for the video because I’m curious if anyone can figure out it’s location.

 

[Yemelyan]

LE wants a family member or friend of BG to come forward with who he is. Sometimes if you want someone to show their hand, you have to show yours first.
Just my thoughts.

Respectfully snipped because this part of the post resonated with me...

If you follow the Molly Bish case out of Massachusetts, which is similar to Delphi in that a young girl was abducted and later found dead in a wooded area, you may know that yesterday after many years a suspect was finally announced in the case. This individual died in 2016 but has been under posthumous investigation for about three years now. Some people are saying things like "I don't understand why LE wait until these people are dead to announce that the case is resolved. Have they messed up the investigation so bad that they are they just pinning it on a dead person to close the case, or...?" For this particular suspect, the tips that were corroborated apparently didn't come in until after he died. And the most likely reason for that, is that whoever had information on him - probably a member of his family - did not want to deal with the repercussions and potential interpersonal strife over tipping him while he was alive.

So how does this relate to Delphi? We have to hope that if there is someone out there with information on the Delphi killer, whether that's something that they definitely know because they recognize him, or whether that's because they are thinking about a story from around the time of the murders that now doesn't add up, that they are willing to risk turning this tip in. Because sometimes it truly is not easy for people with information to make that leap, as it could change everything about their world as they know it if they are correct.

 

[Yemelyan]

If LE were to release more evidence, I’m curious what’s an hypothetical piece presently being withheld which would assist a family member or friend in immediately identifying him?

I can’t think of a good example at all. If there’s anything so leading that’s being withheld, I’d think LE would’ve solved this case by now without the need for the continual ask for tips to assist with the identification of the suspect.

I'd love to know this too. When I think back to other cases that went unsolved for many years, I can think of a few where particular pieces of evidence were withheld that in my opinion, might have solved the crime or solved it much faster. Like in the Amy Mihaljevic case, found near her body was a very unique patterned curtain (thought to possibly be homemade) that LE suspected was used to transport her body but at the time they weren't 100% sure it was connected to her murder. When genetic technology advanced to the point where they could prove it was connected, they released information on it but apparently it was too late for anyone to connect it to something they remembered. But this was such a unique piece of evidence - I kind of feel that unless the Delphi case also has something personal or unique left behind at the scene, I struggle to think of what else could be released that would help.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Respectfully snipped because this part of the post resonated with me...

If you follow the Molly Bish case out of Massachusetts, which is similar to Delphi in that a young girl was abducted and later found dead in a wooded area, you may know that yesterday after many years a suspect was finally announced in the case. This individual died in 2016 but has been under posthumous investigation for about three years now. Some people are saying things like "I don't understand why LE wait until these people are dead to announce that the case is resolved. Have they messed up the investigation so bad that they are they just pinning it on a dead person to close the case, or...?" For this particular suspect, the tips that were corroborated apparently didn't come in until after he died. And the most likely reason for that, is that whoever had information on him - probably a member of his family - did not want to deal with the repercussions and potential interpersonal strife over tipping him while he was alive.

So how does this relate to Delphi? We have to hope that if there is someone out there with information on the Delphi killer, whether that's something that they definitely know because they recognize him, or whether that's because they are thinking about a story from around the time of the murders that now doesn't add up, that they are willing to risk turning this tip in. Because sometimes it truly is not easy for people with information to make that leap, as it could change everything about their world as they know it if they are correct.

I get what you’re saying but I guess my point is this...if all LE can do is ask repeatedly for someone to come in and tell them who did this, then they don’t have much. I don’t care how hard it might be on a family member or a friend to turn him in. What do they want? $325,000? Oh...that’s right, that’s already been offered.
LE needs to stop relying on the one piece served up on silver platter and investigate the heck out of this which I’m not sure they did until it was too late. If they have nothing else to investigate release some information. Solve the case! Do whatever it takes to solve the case! They need to check their egos at the door and solve it.
Sorry for the rant. It’s not personal. I just needed to say it.

 

[Yemelyan]

I get what you’re saying but I guess my point is this...if all LE can do is ask repeatedly for someone to come in and tell them who did this, then they don’t have much. I don’t care how hard it might be on a family member or a friend to turn him in. What do they want? $325,000? Oh...that’s right, that’s already been offered.
LE needs to stop relying on the one piece served up on silver platter and investigate the heck out of this which I’m not sure they did until it was too late. If they have nothing else to investigate release some information. Solve the case! Do whatever it takes to solve the case! They need to check their egos at the door and solve it.
Sorry for the rant. It’s not personal. I just needed to say it.

To your point, $325,000 is nothing if it means you are the - just saying - wife, son, or daughter of a person who stalked, murdered, and did who knows what else to two children in the woods. It means nothing if you fear you're going to lose your job, be isolated from your extended family, be shunned by your friends, etc. So there's a reason that huge rewards like that have diminishing returns when it comes to solving cases like this one. Denial and the reluctance to face change are very difficult things to overcome even for the average person.

I'm not sure what the overall picture of LE's strategy in this case is, I feel like I can only see bits and pieces of it. And probably that's because I'm not the person who has information who can solve this. So I can certainly see how one would get the impression that they are saying "we need the public to give us a name and THEN we can solve it." But I'm not where you are yet in thinking that's definitely the case. Hopefully it will be solved at some point and we will be able to see what went into the investigation.

 

[somequestions]

Mark me down as one of those people who does not trust that LE is right about what they think in this investigation. Four years out, I think they have completely mishandled this case.
There. I said it. Been thinking it for a long time.
Just my thoughts.

It is my opinion LE is wrong about what they think in the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. But I cannot ever say for sure whether the man on the bridge from the phone video is young or old, local or not. No one can. We also do not know how LE makes conclusions about the information they have.

So in this case, for as much I definitely think LE is way off, no one can say with absolute certainty that is the case. But as time goes on I think more people are going to start doubting whether or not LE is on the right path to solving Abigail Williams and Liberty German's murders.

LE could be right about the second sketch POI too. For example, today in the Molly Bish case a man was named a suspect who looks very close to the sketch released in that case. Unfortunately he died 5 years ago, but was reported by a family member after he died. So I do not know what to make of it all in this case or that one.

We can only begin to have the discussion about what was done right or wrong in any particular case after a suspect has been arrested and convicted of the crime. I will admit that if the Delphi killer ends up being someone 18-40 who looks younger than his true age and is or was local to the Delphi area when the crime was committed I am going to be very surprised.

 

[SMK777]

Respectfully snipped because this part of the post resonated with me...

If you follow the Molly Bish case out of Massachusetts, which is similar to Delphi in that a young girl was abducted and later found dead in a wooded area, you may know that yesterday after many years a suspect was finally announced in the case. This individual died in 2016 but has been under posthumous investigation for about three years now. Some people are saying things like "I don't understand why LE wait until these people are dead to announce that the case is resolved. Have they messed up the investigation so bad that they are they just pinning it on a dead person to close the case, or...?" For this particular suspect, the tips that were corroborated apparently didn't come in until after he died. And the most likely reason for that, is that whoever had information on him - probably a member of his family - did not want to deal with the repercussions and potential interpersonal strife over tipping him while he was alive.

So how does this relate to Delphi? We have to hope that if there is someone out there with information on the Delphi killer, whether that's something that they definitely know because they recognize him, or whether that's because they are thinking about a story from around the time of the murders that now doesn't add up, that they are willing to risk turning this tip in. Because sometimes it truly is not easy for people with information to make that leap, as it could change everything about their world as they know it if they are correct.

Do you think they’re going to be able to definitively rule this suspect in or out? I read an article just now where LE is saying they still are not ruling out other POIs in Molly Bish’s murder. This is what I’m afraid will keep happening as well with Liberty and Abigail.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'd love to know this too. When I think back to other cases that went unsolved for many years, I can think of a few where particular pieces of evidence were withheld that in my opinion, might have solved the crime or solved it much faster. Like in the Amy Mihaljevic case, found near her body was a very unique patterned curtain (thought to possibly be homemade) that LE suspected was used to transport her body but at the time they weren't 100% sure it was connected to her murder. When genetic technology advanced to the point where they could prove it was connected, they released information on it but apparently it was too late for anyone to connect it to something they remembered. But this was such a unique piece of evidence - I kind of feel that unless the Delphi case also has something personal or unique left behind at the scene, I struggle to think of what else could be released that would help.

I have tried to think of things as well -

His route - but LE believes he’s familiar with the Delphi area and trails so there’s nothing that would stand out about that as unique.

Cause of death - Surely anyone who knows anybody associated with Delphi, who exhibits behaviour indicating they’re capable of killing another human is sufficient? How the girls were murdered is secondary. It’s not as if someone would be sitting back “oh I know he only kills people by stabbing” awaiting an officially announced COD.

Vehicle - This one has reached a dead end a few times in prior cases. Unless LE are absolutely certain the suspect is known to be associated with a specific vehicle it can just as easily lead an investigation in an entirely wrong direction. Besides, LE has access to vehicle registry information without the need for public assistance.

Any items found near or at the crime scene - Was anything found that would be unequivocally associated to the killer, we don’t know.

Audio/video - LE claims that’s it, as far as the killer’s audio and video. As for the girls chatting, if LE, other specialists and professionals and the family are unable to identify any ‘clues’ from the audio, there’s no point in LE releasing to the public what would obviously cause needless heartbreak and anguish to their loved ones.

Shoes - If a footprint was discovered in mud, was it clear enough to determine shoe size, make and style of footwear almost 24 hours later and can LE rule out nobody else created that footprint? We don’t know the answer to that either.

I can’t think of anything else…..?

 

[MistyWaters]

I get what you’re saying but I guess my point is this...if all LE can do is ask repeatedly for someone to come in and tell them who did this, then they don’t have much. I don’t care how hard it might be on a family member or a friend to turn him in. What do they want? $325,000? Oh...that’s right, that’s already been offered.
LE needs to stop relying on the one piece served up on silver platter and investigate the heck out of this which I’m not sure they did until it was too late. If they have nothing else to investigate release some information. Solve the case! Do whatever it takes to solve the case! They need to check their egos at the door and solve it.
Sorry for the rant. It’s not personal. I just needed to say it.

Police are limited in what they can do to solve a case. They can’t insist anyone talk to them, they can’t beat someone black and blue or pull out his fingernails one by one until they get a confession, heck they can’t even get a search warrant unless a Judge believes they have justifiable cause. I think none of us want to live in a society where police have unlimited power so unfortunately the reality is they can’t do whatever it takes.

 

[MistyWaters]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Delphi murder victim's sister debunks social media rumors
Critics are also accusing Kelsi's dad.

“They will change our words. They twist our words all the time, and he doesn't want you guys to do that, so he just chooses not to speak…To go along with that, there is a rumor that Libby actually called him at 2:30 to ask him to pick them up, which our phone records show that's not true,” Kelsi said. …."

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Police are limited in what they can do to solve a case. They can’t insist anyone talk to them, they can’t beat someone black and blue or pull out his fingernails one by one until they get a confession, heck they can’t even get a search warrant unless a Judge believes they have justifiable cause. I think none of us want to live in a society where police have unlimited power so unfortunately the reality is they can’t do whatever it takes.

I wasn’t suggesting that the police start torturing people. There are other routes they could be taking than begging for a name, like releasing information. That’s all.

 

[news buff]

Correct. It doesn't matter what was said. There is no underneath the bridge on the north side. The creek is in the way. A very wide creek, in that area. That's the crux of the matter. There is no walking path across the creek at ground level.

There was considerable fortification done to the pillar on the north side a couple of years ago, requiring a crane and Bobcat. We have no photos of it or videos of that progress because the area is so difficult to access. That in itself should be a hint. If they had done the same type of work to a foundation below the south side of the bridge then <Modsnip> and all the other regulars or semi-regulars would have been out there multiple times documenting it and commenting on it.

This is not a park. I think that's what throws people off. Too many followers of the case want to view it like Falls Park on the Reedy in Greenville, South Carolina, a gorgeous tourist area with regular visitation and people cavorting underneath the bridge while bridge walkers relax and look down on them.

Monon High Bridge Trail is not 1% of that. An older woman like Becky Patty if she lived in Greenville would visit Falls Park on the Reedy many times per year, just like most people in town. Instead she lives in Delphi and has no idea about the particulars of Monon High Bridge Trail. When Derrick repeats to her what Flannel Shirt Guy said, Becky takes the phrase "down by the bridge" and wrongly interprets it to mean "underneath." The wrongful interpretation can extend months and years, including when she is a guest of Gray Hughes. The family is stunned. There is no reason for them to piece everything together including exact words and times and interpretation. We've seen that countless times, primarily from Kelsi.

So much misdirection. They say they want it solved, but it doesn't appear to be the case.

 

[news buff]

There was a Hollandsburg IN massacre on Valentines Day in 1977 by a guy and his three friends who was said to have idolized Charles Manson. A s t r e t c h but another Manson fan on a 4oth anniversary?

1977 Hollandsburg massacre left 4 dead, survivor to testify

 

[taylorss]

I have tried to think of things as well -

His route - but LE believes he’s familiar with the Delphi area and trails so there’s nothing that would stand out about that as unique.

Cause of death - Surely anyone who knows anybody associated with Delphi, who exhibits behaviour indicating they’re capable of killing another human is sufficient? How the girls were murdered is secondary. It’s not as if someone would be sitting back “oh I know he only kills people by stabbing” awaiting an officially announced COD.

Vehicle - This one has reached a dead end a few times in prior cases. Unless LE are absolutely certain the suspect is known to be associated with a specific vehicle it can just as easily lead an investigation in an entirely wrong direction. Besides, LE has access to vehicle registry information without the need for public assistance.

Any items found near or at the crime scene - Was anything found that would be unequivocally associated to the killer, we don’t know.

Audio/video - LE claims that’s it, as far as the killer’s audio and video. As for the girls chatting, if LE, other specialists and professionals and the family are unable to identify any ‘clues’ from the audio, there’s no point in LE releasing to the public what would obviously cause needless heartbreak and anguish to their loved ones.

Shoes - If a footprint was discovered in mud, was it clear enough to determine shoe size, make and style of footwear almost 24 hours later and can LE rule out nobody else created that footprint? We don’t know the answer to that either.

I can’t think of anything else…..?

I’ve been trying to think along similar lines - if BJC is the killer, what could LE do to look for evidence?

Obvs first call is to search any premises or possessions under his control.... but there’s probably very little of this since he’s been homeless, evicted, imprisoned etc in the years since.

I wonder if, MOO speculation, when BJC was first IDed LE hoped to find something among whatever he’d been able to maintain (EG maybe some boxes of stuff stored at his fathers house even after eviction). If there was something to search, I can imagine lots of optimism as they got started. But maybe there wasn’t much & it turned up nothing .... so the optimism faded as time dragged on. MOO

If this is right - if there was far less to search than w a normal person since he hasn’t maintained a home etc - where else can LE look for evidence??

-> as you described, contemporaneous stuff from crime scene - EG if a nearby discarded cig butt had BJC dna (tho if so that presumably would’ve led them to him much sooner), or as you said shoe prints matching his, etc, anything saved from 2/17 to eventually help ID perp

-> interviewing any alibi witness BJC might provide & anyone else who was in contact w him at the time .... but chances are IMO this is a very short list. Would not be surprised if not a soul on earth knew what this drunken wreck jailbird violent felon was up to at that point in time. Assuming MOO he was estranged from his brother & father / any other fam & any poor woman who might’ve been nominally his wife / GF .... this route could’ve yielded nothing at all.

-> any online records he might’ve left - posts showing a location, self-implicating comments or msgs on SM, anonymous comments that could be tied back to an IP address he’d used - this has good potential for at least circumstantial findings, but could also yield nothing

-> what else ????
Any ideas?

Assuming the loser will not provide a confession (tho he still might as he works his way thru crim just system ... does IN have death penalty to threaten him with?) - what else might LE possibly do to tie him to this 4+ yo crime?

Hopefully some of yall have more knowledge here & can make some good suggestions ....

I still think BJC is the perp IMO & the prob is that evidence is elusive .... if I imagine decades into the future, this case never solved & has become history & someone asks why LE never found perp, I imagine my answer being (a not-uncommon answer unfortunately) there was a clear candidate but they just couldn’t ever pin it on him .... which is to say, BJC will remain my choice perp JMO unless & until a better one is IDed.

 

[WildHuncher]

-> what else ????
Any ideas?

Any eyewitnesses who worked with the artist in producing the sketches could be sworn in for a courtroom finger point.

It's one thing to say someone looks like a sketch; doesn't put them at the crime scene. Get someone under oath in a court of law saying, "THAT's the man I saw on the trail that day, yes! At about 1:50 PM! Headed down toward the bridge!" Do that and you're putting the defendant close to the crime if not at that spot down the hill.

We know the sketches have eyewitness input. We don't know if anyone is sure enough to sit in court and swear, "That's HIM beyond any doubt."