Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #138

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
This has been my most likely theory after the first 6 months to one year after. I do believe he has some familiarity with that specific area but it is in his past. I tend to believe it is most likely he lived there or nearby, probably before high school. Or he had a relative - e.g., grandparent(s), aunt, uncle - that he would visit there in the area and that person(s) are no longer there.

Of course, those trails and the surrounding area are not a vast forest. Someone experienced in being in the field from hunting, especially deer, orienteering, from the Army or Marines or even paintball games in larger, more vast wooded areas could likely have become familiar enough with the trails in two or three trips. And nowadays with overhead photos on Google Maps it is probably even easier. Of course, that theory comes with the question: "Why this area to scope out?"

Can be someone, who made his experiences in his past/youth, living in a completely different state. Maybe, he has a favor for these areas, where ever he is living.
 
I don’t think BG lived or worked in Delphi at the time of the murders and I don’t think he does now. If there is a link to him and Delphi I think it’s tenuous and historical.

Delphi is a small place. Everyone will have been looking at everyone differently. There’s not many secrets in small rural areas. Add this to the fact that BG had/has to continue to behave ‘normally’, when in Delphi it no doubt feels in many ways that the murder was yesterday and the pain and repercussions remain very raw.

He isn’t there.

MOO JMO
bbm
Why not in the metropolis for example? Would be a good place for criminals to live in plain sight.
 
I'd be surprised if it was someone at their school for 2 reasons:
  1. Abby and Libby didn't seem to recognise them
  2. I'm sure Police have asked members of staff at the school if they have any idea who it is in the video, I know it's not the greatest video but it's good enough surely for "That looks a bit like X"
I do agree that it would be a big conincidence that he is there, on a weekday when school would otherwise be in, kitted and attacking victims of that age.

That being said, I can think of many ways someone would be aware of it without working in the education system, anyone with children themselves, someone who has a colleague who isn't going to be in that day because they're taking care of their children, or has a family member or friend with children who mentioned it in a conversation could all make someone aware of it.
Indiana schools commonly have either a digital billboard-type sign or a sign with changeable letters in front of the school that announces calendar events. Usually the date of “no school” days is prominent on the sign. Anyone driving past the school would see the days students have off school.

I know i have posted this before, but I was working at a school in a small town very nearby to Delphi then and the students there had the same day off school for an unused snow day. It was posted on the sign out in front of the school, FEBRUARY 13 NO SCHOOL.
 
I wanted to throw in one more idea. The guy’s words…were we absolutely told that they were taped by Libby after the BG came up to them? Or is it someone’s reconstruction?

I am reading detective stories from the rising sun country. In one of them, instructions (on how to get to the place) were sent on tapes . Because now I question everything from the Delphi narrative, especially, the timing of events, I am wondering if it was a message sent to one of the girls. How to get to the meeting place, for example?

A message can be sent in any voice. I have been long wondering if the BG’s voice is indeed the killer’s one.

So, since we can use Gray Hughes , he has stated the following as coming from AW-

The audio (this is NOT verbatim) goes something like this-
Abby asks Libby if "that guy is behind her"
Libby replies "mmmhmmm"

Abby says something to the effect of, "does he have a gun? OMG he has a gun"

There is a discussion about which way to go , they are at the end of the trail.

The Killer says "guys".
Libby responds "hmmm"
there is the sound of a gun cocking

He says "down the hill."

AW has had the opportunity to listen to what is on the audio.
I would believe what she says.


You can hear most of this is the last hour of this video as well as several others that Gray Hughes has done.


AMOO MOO JMO
 
That's a great message gregrichards.
Indiana schools commonly have either a digital billboard-type sign or a sign with changeable letters in front of the school that announces calendar events. Usually the date of “no school” days is prominent on the sign. Anyone driving past the school would see the days students have off school.

I know i have posted this before, but I was working at a school in a small town very nearby to Delphi then and the students there had the same day off school for an unused snow day. It was posted on the sign out in front of the school, FEBRUARY 13 NO SCHOOL.
This is excellent local information to have thanks and thanks (at a great distance) for your warm words to the family and le I mostly agree though of course they may have missed something obvious we will hopefully know in hindsight.

Ravenmoons transcript of Greg Richards would explain the slight feeling many have had there the added word 'guys' is slighty separate - so the gun cocking and the mmm is taken out. I personally think he says go down the hill with go and down elided...not that it matters much.

Speaking of family Kelsey's comment that it is someone they know is important. In a very cold case recently solved by ancestral DNA (a young girl Christine Jessop) following a wrongful conviction it turned out that the perp had been in her house the day before she went missing, was interviewed I think once he just didn't come up in anyone's mind something like the husband of someone closer to the family not living in town. Her brother was on WS and he vaguely remembered the guy but had a different poi in his own mind. As some recent posts have been saying it could be something like that...
 
Sorry? You think the killer and BG are different people and the “Guys, down the hill” recording was, what, an answerphone message?

With all the respect in the world, I think it’s as unlikely as it’s possible to be that your detective stories are the key to solving this case. If I had to choose a fictional detective to be on this case, I’d personally choose Columbo, though Inspector Morse is my personal favourite fictional detective.

[One of the books I read today is going to be released as a movie in 2022 (“Bullet train”, with Brad Pitt). (Can’t wait to see US interpretation of Japanese prose.) But the taped voice is from another one].

Now back to Delphi…
Between the official meetings, flyers, and then, interviews, podcasts, “debunking” videos and lots of unofficial information, I am trying to understand what is official, and what of the facts we view as “official” are fruits of endless assumptions.

After the fiasco of the sketch/es, I am of the opinion that there are very few bits of information that we can take as facts. Either we know nothing, or LE made a mistake early, was led astray, confused the case and currently, have no idea who BG is. I am not 100% sure that the “voice” is that of the killer. MOO.
 
So, since we can use Gray Hughes , he has stated the following as coming from AW-

The audio (this is NOT verbatim) goes something like this-
Abby asks Libby if "that guy is behind her"
Libby replies "mmmhmmm"

Abby says something to the effect of, "does he have a gun? OMG he has a gun"

There is a discussion about which way to go , they are at the end of the trail.

The Killer says "guys".
Libby responds "hmmm"
there is the sound of a gun cocking

He says "down the hill."

AW has had the opportunity to listen to what is on the audio.
I would believe what she says.


You can hear most of this is the last hour of this video as well as several others that Gray Hughes has done.


AMOO MOO JMO
I haven't been able to follow this case recently like I used to so this was new to me.

The info you mention is discussed starting at around 2:41:00 for those interested. I couldn't listen to the entire video so it could be mentioned elsewhere. Thanks for the link.
 
That's a great message gregrichards.

This is excellent local information to have thanks and thanks (at a great distance) for your warm words to the family and le I mostly agree though of course they may have missed something obvious we will hopefully know in hindsight.

Ravenmoons transcript of Greg Richards would explain the slight feeling many have had there the added word 'guys' is slighty separate - so the gun cocking and the mmm is taken out. I personally think he says go down the hill with go and down elided...not that it matters much.

Speaking of family Kelsey's comment that it is someone they know is important. In a very cold case recently solved by ancestral DNA (a young girl Christine Jessop) following a wrongful conviction it turned out that the perp had been in her house the day before she went missing, was interviewed I think once he just didn't come up in anyone's mind something like the husband of someone closer to the family not living in town. Her brother was on WS and he vaguely remembered the guy but had a different poi in his own mind. As some recent posts have been saying it could be something like that...

This is what I was thinking, that between one of the relatives’ families and the killer, there is one more person.

From Christina Jessop’s brother:
“There were three people my mother told that morning we went to visit my dad in jail and that Christine wasn’t coming,” he said, adding he had forgotten that his mother had told Hoover’s wife.”

‘It had to be someone we knew well’: Christine Jessop’s family speaks after 1984 murder solved | Globalnews.ca

In Jessop’s case, besides a neighbor being accused and found guilty and later exonerated, 300 people were interviewed, but her killer Calvin Hoover was never under suspicion. What I think might have happened is that Christine’s mom might have told her friend Heather (then Calvin Hoover’s wife), and then Heather told it to Calvin (about Christine being left at home that day), but either both women forgot, or Heather forgot. To her, that it was her ex- husband, came as a total shock in 2020, although later in their life together he became very abusive, was diagnosed with a mental illness and in 2015, killed himself. But his attitude to Heather attending Christine’s grave, for example, was supportive. Interesting: he changed later in life (not necessarily after the murder), but his outward response to the murder seemed humane.

In the Delphi girls’ situation, they invited people to join them MHB on Snapchat, so who else could have heard about it, besides the addressees, is hard to understand. It could have been someone’s mom commenting of the girls going to MHB unattended, and someone else in the room could have overheard it. What if that someone is now an ex-bf? Who would remember it?

I think that whoever he was, if he was close to Delphi inhabitants, he now disappeared from their lives (e.g, broke up with someone, moved on), or, worse, the person from whom he heard it disappeared (died, OD’ed). Somehow, one of the links is now missing. hence the guy is off the radar.

Another thing, like it often happens, Calvin Hoover had an alibi for that fateful day (was at work). The police never checked his alibi. Maybe in Delphi as well, the person is definitely in the “alibied” group (known to live elsewhere, not being close to Delphi). Either someone provided the alibi, or, more likely, it was never checked. JMO.
 
Last edited:
This has been my most likely theory after the first 6 months to one year after. I do believe he has some familiarity with that specific area but it is in his past. I tend to believe it is most likely he lived there or nearby, probably before high school. Or he had a relative - e.g., grandparent(s), aunt, uncle - that he would visit there in the area and that person(s) are no longer there.

Of course, those trails and the surrounding area are not a vast forest. Someone experienced in being in the field from hunting, especially deer, orienteering, from the Army or Marines or even paintball games in larger, more vast wooded areas could likely have become familiar enough with the trails in two or three trips. And nowadays with overhead photos on Google Maps it is probably even easier. Of course, that theory comes with the question: "Why this area to scope out?"

Why this area. I was thinking it myself. Maybe it is not the only area? Also, perhaps, if he were found in that area, he’d have a good explanation? He is not a Delphi local, I presume and hope. But maybe there is a grave, or, as you said, a relative, or even a girlfriend? To add to it, drug circles accept everyone, so naming a local dealer could be a (remote) possibility for him. Delphi is one of the places with which he had a certain connection.
Another connection could be work, but it is more specific.

ETA: one place that I always keep in mind is Delphi intensive OP treatment facility. I don't know when it opened. But if it existed in 2016, an ex-patient could know about the place. Also, such facilities often have AA or NA groups run at their premises. Very easy reason to be in Delphi.
 
Last edited:
this killer is almost 100 percent a serial killer..find him and more than one case will be cleared up, possibly many,
the chances this is a newbie one time one trick pony are nil..if he is out there loose then he plans to kill again...when and where is anyones guess..and while I believe we have the killer already..I still know there's a chance Im wrong..I wouldn't be the first... mOO
 
That's a great message gregrichards.

This is excellent local information to have thanks and thanks (at a great distance) for your warm words to the family and le I mostly agree though of course they may have missed something obvious we will hopefully know in hindsight.

Ravenmoons transcript of Greg Richards would explain the slight feeling many have had there the added word 'guys' is slighty separate - so the gun cocking and the mmm is taken out. I personally think he says go down the hill with go and down elided...not that it matters much.

Speaking of family Kelsey's comment that it is someone they know is important. In a very cold case recently solved by ancestral DNA (a young girl Christine Jessop) following a wrongful conviction it turned out that the perp had been in her house the day before she went missing, was interviewed I think once he just didn't come up in anyone's mind something like the husband of someone closer to the family not living in town. Her brother was on WS and he vaguely remembered the guy but had a different poi in his own mind. As some recent posts have been saying it could be something like that...

Concerning “Kelsey’s comment that it is someone they know”….where and when did she say that? Is that from the GH video? Is so could you give a time mark for it?
I was just wondering because that sounds like a very definitive statement and if it is on the video I’d like to hear that in context.
 
I wanted to throw in one more idea. The guy’s words…were we absolutely told that they were taped by Libby after the BG came up to them? Or is it someone’s reconstruction?

I am reading detective stories from the rising sun country. In one of them, instructions (on how to get to the place) were sent on tapes . Because now I question everything from the Delphi narrative, especially, the timing of events, I am wondering if it was a message sent to one of the girls. How to get to the meeting place, for example?

A message can be sent in any voice. I have been long wondering if the BG’s voice is indeed the killer’s one.

At the press conference when the the original audio clip was released in 2017 LE says the audio was recorded on Libby’s phone at the bridge as BG was walking up to them (Not the exact words LE said but that is the scene they describe).
At the April 2019 press conference when they added “guys” LE only said it’s the audio clip “with additions”. Although they don’t specifically say the whole clip is from Libby’s phone that certainly is implied.
If by chance LE did cobble together the audio from different sources I think that would be a a field day in court for a defense attorney. I can’t imagine LE would risk that.
 
...
The info you mention is discussed starting at around 2:41:00 for those interested. I couldn't listen to the entire video so it could be mentioned elsewhere. Thanks for the link.

And thank you for the time stamp. Many people put great store in GH's videos, but they're just too long for me. The short one showing the possible flow of people in the crime was good, but that was only 17 minutes or so, IIRC. You've saved me two hours and thirty minutes of GH's rambling remarks. Thanks!
 
So, since we can use Gray Hughes , he has stated the following as coming from AW-

The audio (this is NOT verbatim) goes something like this-
Abby asks Libby if "that guy is behind her"
Libby replies "mmmhmmm"

Abby says something to the effect of, "does he have a gun? OMG he has a gun"

There is a discussion about which way to go , they are at the end of the trail.

The Killer says "guys".
Libby responds "hmmm"
there is the sound of a gun cocking

He says "down the hill."

AW has had the opportunity to listen to what is on the audio.
I would believe what she says.


You can hear most of this is the last hour of this video as well as several others that Gray Hughes has done.


AMOO MOO JMO
My opinion...IF LE doesn't know the identity of the killer(s) yet...and IF what you just wrote is true...LE needs to release what was said by BG after "Down the hill".

If what you've written depicts what happen then those girls had to of screamed or cried out in some fashion. BG would have had to of spoken again to tell them to be quiet. If he's still an unknown releasing more of his voice would be a logical step...unless of course the audio is unintelligible.

I think LE knows the killer's identity. I think it's a matter of proving he was at the murder scene BEFORE the searching started. AJMO
 
My opinion...IF LE doesn't know the identity of the killer(s) yet...and IF what you just wrote is true...LE needs to release what was said by BG after "Down the hill".

If what you've written depicts what happen then those girls had to of screamed or cried out in some fashion. BG would have had to of spoken again to tell them to be quiet. If he's still an unknown releasing more of his voice would be a logical step...unless of course the audio is unintelligible.

I think LE knows the killer's identity. I think it's a matter of proving he was at the murder scene BEFORE the searching started. AJMO

Just for the record, Gray Hughes has talked about this sequence of events a few times.

He is INCREDIBLY difficult for me to listen to, but there have been several occasions that I came back feeling like I learned something new.

The statements he made are statements that he says AW has spoken about. The reason that I hold a little more stock in what he says as being truthful is because of the fact that he has seemingly become close with the German family and has also forged some type of relationship with AW whom he refers to as "Annie" . Also, the fact that Tricia has allowed him to be used as a source means a lot to me as far as his validity goes.

As to what else has been said by the killer- Tobe has stated that there is nothing else discernible as far as his voice goes.

MOO on that is that the phone was likely stuck in LG pocket and things became quite muffled.


AMOO MOO JMO
 
... The audio (this is NOT verbatim) goes something like this-
Abby asks Libby if "that guy is behind her"
Libby replies "mmmhmmm"
[ ... ... ]
AW has had the opportunity to listen to what is on the audio.
I would believe what she says.

Raven, I agree about believing what AW said. I would add a slight reservation, though. Attribution may have been given earlier (or later) in the video, but the part I listened to (thanks to MadMcGoo's timestamp) begins: "Let me read you what I got from somebody who's friends with one of the people who watched the video ..." The "watched the video" reference is AW, we learn a bit later in the discussion.

My slight reservation, though, is this: "... what I got from somebody who's friends with ..." I'm not saying that ISN'T true, but "somebody who's friends with" is awfully nonspecific. Who is this providing the information? GH appears to accept the information as true, but without a bit stronger identification of who provided the information, when this person had this discussion with AW, if AW has confirmed that elsewhere, if the information has been reported by another person ... it seems pretty vague to me. MOO, your mileage may vary, but I'm thinking I would not necessarily believe it's completely accurate without a bit more information to support it. Just MHO.
 
Happy Thanksgiving Sleuthers! JBC is sitting in jail..he's gonna get dinner..in December he will be sentenced ..hopefully after that we will be able to hear more information about the Delphi case and JBC's possible connection to it.
Snipped for brevity by me.

Just popping by after a long absence to catch up. I was thinking about JBC as a possible suspect in this matter after reading your post, and it suddenly occurred to me that he might not be a likely suspect at all, simply because someone officially involved in the investigation of the case (I forget who, might have been an officer or a prosecutor) has said we will be surprised when we find out.

What the hell is surprising about JBC? Nothing. He's nothing more than a common criminal and lowlife.
When they said they thought we'd be surprised, I wondered what made them think we would be? Surely no one would be shocked that a guy like JBC might also be a killer?

So this begs the question then, what is it they think the general public would be surprised to learn? Is is the precision with which the killer attacked and killed the girls? Is is the state of the crime scene? Perhaps the staging of the scene before the girls arrived there? Is the way the kids were left shocking? Would we be shocked to know who police think is responsible for their murders?
 
Snipped for brevity by me.

Just popping by after a long absence to catch up. I was thinking about JBC as a possible suspect in this matter after reading your post, and it suddenly occurred to me that he might not be a likely suspect at all, simply because someone officially involved in the investigation of the case (I forget who, might have been an officer or a prosecutor) has said we will be surprised when we find out.

What the hell is surprising about JBC? Nothing. He's nothing more than a common criminal and lowlife.
When they said they thought we'd be surprised, I wondered what made them think we would be? Surely no one would be shocked that a guy like JBC might also be a killer?

So this begs the question then, what is it they think the general public would be surprised to learn? Is is the precision with which the killer attacked and killed the girls? Is is the state of the crime scene? Perhaps the staging of the scene before the girls arrived there? Is the way the kids were left shocking? Would we be shocked to know who police think is responsible for their murders?

At this point I think the surprise to all of us when we find out would be the fact that LE actually solved the case!
Seriously though, I don’t put much stock into anything LE has said in the past including this little snippet. They’ve walked everything back two or three times.
In my opinion, right now, JBC is our best chance. I am a bit concerned that time is ticking by with no word, but I imagine it’s difficult to place an itinerant or homeless person in a certain place at a certain time, so I’m still hopeful.
If it’s not JBC I still think it will be a situation where he falls into LE’s laps through another crime because I don’t think LE has a clue and frankly I don’t think they have the ability to find the killer themselves.
 
At this point I think the surprise to all of us when we find out would be the fact that LE actually solved the case!
Seriously though, I don’t put much stock into anything LE has said in the past including this little snippet. They’ve walked everything back two or three times.
In my opinion, right now, JBC is our best chance. I am a bit concerned that time is ticking by with no word, but I imagine it’s difficult to place an itinerant or homeless person in a certain place at a certain time, so I’m still hopeful.
If it’s not JBC I still think it will be a situation where he falls into LE’s laps through another crime because I don’t think LE has a clue and frankly I don’t think they have the ability to find the killer themselves.

It sure is hard to believe that LE have a clue what happened, why, or even who is responsible for any of it! I'd like to think that they know more than we do, and I'm sure that they do (eg: they know the state of the crime scene, cause and modality of death of the girls, how the victims were left and specifically where). But it is hard to believe they know anything more than this which may point at who is responsible. I do not see the value in their silence regarding further details at all. The only one benefiting from their refusal to release more details or other information is the killer himself. At some point, police must realize their behaviour is working for the killer, and they must do something different in order to either spook him out of hiding, or to garner the attention of anyone who may be able to identify him.

Just have to hope that they have enough information to point to someone, preferably sooner than later. I hope this isn't another case where police find the killer, but he's already dead so that all their secrecy leads to an actual jail time for him.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
70
Guests online
3,953
Total visitors
4,023

Forum statistics

Threads
602,603
Messages
18,143,589
Members
231,456
Latest member
Atlanta_2_Philly
Back
Top