Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #138

[photographer4]

I see your point.
I do believe JBC is the killer.
I’m just not a fan of the building.

I sure hope they charge JBC soon then if he's their guy! I can definitely see how it *could* be him. I'm just torn as to whether or not it *is* him.

 

[JnRyan]

I just came across another tidbit from another case I've followed for literally decades. The Colonial Parkway Murders. Probably the best podcast - or any medium for that matter - to listen to is "Mind Over Murder" with the brother of one of the victims, Bill Thomas.

In the 01 March episode he and his co-host interview a criminologist, Dr. Laura Pettler. About 10 minutes into the episode she drops this quote: "You don't leave a crime scene like you entered it." Meaning that psychologically the killer leaves with a different state of mind than when they entered. Emotions are higher, apprehension or realization of consequences is high. Because of this murderers have been known to commit traffic violations such as running a red light or stop sign, speeding, etc. Her suggestion is to check traffic violations as far out as 100 miles from the scene.

It would be interesting to know if LE did that here.

 

[photographer4]

I just came across another tidbit from another case I've followed for literally decades. The Colonial Parkway Murders. Probably the best podcast - or any medium for that matter - to listen to is "Mind Over Murder" with the brother of one of the victims, Bill Thomas.

In the 01 March episode he and his co-host interview a criminologist, Dr. Laura Pettler. About 10 minutes into the episode she drops this quote: "You don't leave a crime scene like you entered it." Meaning that psychologically the killer leaves with a different state of mind than when they entered. Emotions are higher, apprehension or realization of consequences is high. Because of this murderers have been known to commit traffic violations such as running a red light or stop sign, speeding, etc. Her suggestion is to check traffic violations as far out as 100 miles from the scene.

It would be interesting to know if LE did that here.

That is such an interesting idea! I wonder if LE have ever considered this idea!? Surely there would be some sort of change to one's mental state after leaving the crime scene! Did the killer actually leave though? Or did he just blend in with the searchers as the search unfolded? I wonder what police actually know regarding his movements immediately following the crime?

 

[JnRyan]

That is such an interesting idea! I wonder if LE have ever considered this idea!? Surely there would be some sort of change to one's mental state after leaving the crime scene! Did the killer actually leave though? Or did he just blend in with the searchers as the search unfolded? I wonder what police actually know regarding his movements immediately following the crime?

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby stated in his interview this last February to HLN that they don't know how the killer exited the area. So, good point, did he leave (I believe he did, my opinion only) OR did he stay and help with the search?

 

[iamnotagolem]

I don’t think it’s JBC for many reasons, but one of which is the same reason I don’t think Delphi is connected to Evansdale. JBCs victim is a pre-pubescent child while the Delphi girls were teenagers.

I could more quickly get on board with JBC being responsible for Evansdale than Delphi, as the victims are similar.

I really don’t think the police have a clue who committed the murder. I think initially they thought it’d be solved quickly because there is video and audio of the killer. I wonder if they would have solved it sooner if they didn’t have the video.

 

[photographer4]

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby stated in his interview this last February to HLN that they don't know how the killer exited the area. So, good point, did he leave (I believe he did, my opinion only) OR did he stay and help with the search?

I'm thinking he probably stayed around the scene, probably helped out in the search. I'd be asking family, did people on the trails just join in the search at the very beginning or was it more people arriving in cars and parking? Did people arrive on bikes to the search? Motorcycles? Pedestrians entering the area from outside to search? How did people arrive? I'm not going to be one bit shocked if this guy stayed in the area to "help search". But at the same time, it seems more logical to me that he would want to vacate the area as quickly as possible.

 

[photographer4]

"someone may have seen this person leaving the crime scene or going to the crime scene, but we’ve never been able to put that information together with enough evidence to show who that person was and that they committed this crime." - Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Robert Ives, prosecutor at the time of the initial investigation speaking to media in July 2020.
Interesting quote to consider there. It sounds like they actually do have a witness or witnesses who saw someone coming or going from the crime scene. Perhaps they even named someone by name but they haven't got enough evidence to charge whomever that person is for some reason or another. This quote makes me think they may actually think they know who is responsible, but cannot proceed at this time without more solid evidence. They only have one kick at the can so to speak, and if they lose in court, the killer goes free and cannot be charged again with the same crime. Damn. I'd be weary too of going after someone without super strong evidence!

 

[JnRyan]

I just finished that 01 March episode of "Mind Over Murder" and I heard Dr. Pettler's take on 'staging' (half way thru) and organized/disorganized (towards the end). We've discussed both of those here. Staging, per Dr. Pettler, can be as simple as turning the victim face down. With regard to organized or not she refers to it as a scale with organized at one end and disorganize on the other and a crime can fall anywhere along the scale. Further, she stated that different aspects should be analyzed individually. For instance, does the wound pattern indicate organized or not. One aspect of the crime can indicate organization and another otherwise.

 

[FromGermany1]

No matter what one might believe about JBC, leasing this building is a strange thing in my opinion.
A small county in a rural area decides to lease a building devoted to investigating a five year old high profile crime that LE has refused to talk about with the public the entire time.
Right.
I think they are only using Abby’s and Libby’s murders to justify getting a big building. Very doubtful this aids the investigation, and frankly I don’t think they expect it to.
I think it’s a bit despicable.

I would like to know, if there is a big spender in the background and we (the public) will never learn of it. Big spender for his own benefit re the case, of course.

 

[margarita25]

I just came across another tidbit from another case I've followed for literally decades. The Colonial Parkway Murders. Probably the best podcast - or any medium for that matter - to listen to is "Mind Over Murder" with the brother of one of the victims, Bill Thomas.

In the 01 March episode he and his co-host interview a criminologist, Dr. Laura Pettler. About 10 minutes into the episode she drops this quote: "You don't leave a crime scene like you entered it." Meaning that psychologically the killer leaves with a different state of mind than when they entered. Emotions are higher, apprehension or realization of consequences is high. Because of this murderers have been known to commit traffic violations such as running a red light or stop sign, speeding, etc. Her suggestion is to check traffic violations as far out as 100 miles from the scene.

It would be interesting to know if LE did that here.

I just finished that 01 March episode of "Mind Over Murder" and I heard Dr. Pettler's take on 'staging' (half way thru) and organized/disorganized (towards the end). We've discussed both of those here. Staging, per Dr. Pettler, can be as simple as turning the victim face down. With regard to organized or not she refers to it as a scale with organized at one end and disorganize on the other and a crime can fall anywhere along the scale. Further, she stated that different aspects should be analyzed individually. For instance, does the wound pattern indicate organized or not. One aspect of the crime can indicate organization and another otherwise.

Thank you, @JnRyan for letting us know about and recommending this podcast. I have subscribed.

Bill Thomas (@billthom56) is also a member here, but I missed his post in February about the podcast:

New Colonial Parkway Murders Deep Dive Podcast Series

 

[watcher9]

If LE already knows who the killer is, why bother to put out two different drawings of the suspect? They would already know what he looks like.
Why could they investigate all these other criminals like DN who commit violent crimes?

I can only hope it is JBC because otherwise, I don't think they have a clue.

 

[watcher9]

Another reason LE may have leased the building could be they are busting out of their seams and it was just easier to move one group to free up some room. Possibly, in time, they could move other departments over if it works out.

 

[watcher9]

Since I am monopolizing the thread, I might as well throw out this possibility that the girls were not the killer's target. He may originally have had the location picked out to trap a single female alone at the end of the bridge but then the two girls showed up.

 

[Shanabanana]

That’s true and especially with young girls like Abbie and Libby. How frightened they must have been, and that made it easier for the killer to control them.

It has nothing to do with gender nor age.

 

[Shanabanana]

Since I am monopolizing the thread, I might as well throw out this possibility that the girls were not the killer's target. He may originally have had the location picked out to trap a single female alone at the end of the bridge but then the two girls showed up.

I definitely support the theory of this perpetrator being the type to pick out victims by opportunity. The fact that he picked two victims might be planned, but ultimately, either it was planned or not, I think he took them both because he could control them both. And like their families have said; none of them would abandon the other. Anyways, as for him planning one or two victims in advance is nothing but speculation. IMO oc. I like to stick more to facts and science. I would like to hear more about why you think he only set out to find one victim tho.

 

[minazoe]

I instead subscribe to the theory that he spotted the pair somewhere and they were to his liking...he then put his plan in motion. I think he might be someone who who has a definite type...he could have been watching the girls for a time. I don't think he just lucked upon them..I think he was fully prepared and equipped when he came across the bridge ...so he could have followed them there in a car. or maybe there were only moments between spotting them and killing them like he saw them before at the store...we just don't know all the things he did prior to the murders...mOO

 

[JnRyan]

Since I am monopolizing the thread, I might as well throw out this possibility that the girls were not the killer's target. He may originally have had the location picked out to trap a single female alone at the end of the bridge but then the two girls showed up.

You're not monopolizing the thread. If you go back over the previous 137 threads you'll see some of the same names over and over - some of them in that last few posts. And secondly, the more we talk, even if we don't agree with one another, the more we keep the case alive.

I had this theory early on. I don't believe the girls were lured there. I haven't ruled it out. It's just at the bottom of my list. One or two spots on the list above the girls running into a UFO and aliens and were killed to shut them up. I'm of the opinion this was strictly opportunistic. And if we think about it when trying to link this crime to a similar one it may not be readily apparent. So if the killer here had the urge for a late teens/early 20 something woman and was frustrated he just may have decided he would take what was presented, two girls trapped at the end of the bridge. He really liked the ideal situation even though the victims weren't his main desire. Some will say, 'Well, wasn't that a risk trying to control two?' If you watch the first episode of Oxygen's "Lover's Lane Murders", a retired FBI agent discusses how a single person could have controlled two ADULT women. So while the focus maybe on Evansdale, the killer in this case may have killed young adult women previously and since and was nowhere near Evansdale at the time of those murders. Or runaways who are simply listed as missing with no body found and hence no forensic evidence to link him to this double murder.

Yes, I wonder about this aspect quite a bit. Thanks for bringing it back up because I haven't for some time.

So hopefully, I'm done monopolizing the thread today.

 

[JnRyan]

I wish I could hit "like" twice for this one. There are several good points in your post, there, but I'm particularly struck by the idea that LE may have large amounts of data that, until more is known, may or not be relevant to the investigation. The sentence I've bolded sounds absolutely plausible IMO and well worth remembering. Gold Star on your essay!

Thanks! I got a bit long winded with that one so I am glad someone made it through to the end of it.

 

[MollyDDD]

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby stated in his interview this last February to HLN that they don't know how the killer exited the area. So, good point, did he leave (I believe he did, my opinion only) OR did he stay and help with the search?

Does anyone know if there are any protocols for LE when dealing with volunteer searchers or can just anybody show up?

 

[JnRyan]

Does anyone know if there are any protocols for LE when dealing with volunteer searchers or can just anybody show up?

I suppose it depends on the jurisdiction and whether or not it is sanctioned or monitored by LE. I've heard of many where a family member kept organizing search parties even after LE stopped. One that comes to mind for me is Christina Morris in TX and her mother kept leading them long after LE stopped. Most state that you have to be 18 or older and provide a photo ID. With Covid now I have no idea if that has changed things.

I'm following the Saza Lee missing person case in CO and I'm seeing search parties being planned through FB that don't appear to involve LE. When Katelin Akens went missing north of here in Spotsylvania VA, LE specifically stated they would conduct the searches and they didn't want volunteers involved at all. So I guess it varies.

One that I participated in had us sign up and provide our names and an emergency contact with the contact's phone number. But no one asked to see my ID.