Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #138

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I suppose it depends on the jurisdiction and whether or not it is sanctioned or monitored by LE. I've heard of many where a family member kept organizing search parties even after LE stopped. One that comes to mind for me is Christina Morris in TX and her mother kept leading them long after LE stopped. Most state that you have to be 18 or older and provide a photo ID. With Covid now I have no idea if that has changed things.

I'm following the Saza Lee missing person case in CO and I'm seeing search parties being planned through FB that don't appear to involve LE. When Katelin Akens went missing north of here in Spotsylvania VA, LE specifically stated they would conduct the searches and they didn't want volunteers involved at all. So I guess it varies.

One that I participated in had us sign up and provide our names and an emergency contact with the contact's phone number. But no one asked to see my ID.
That is so interesting. I just wondered because like the poster said, even the killer could just blend in so easily and no one would even know. His DNA could be deposited anywhere along with the other searchers. As much as I think it is wonderful that people gather together and volunteer their time to help find missing people, it would be prudent if LE were to do like you said, require a photo ID with contact information just to keep check of who was there legitimately. Thanks.
 
do you think they would charge him before his sentencing?

No. Because it is 99% not JBC. JMO, of course.

The longer it goes, the more I think about this long list of pois that might be innocent. Or one of them is guilty at best. But the rest?

Some of them are protesting, publicly. JBC, in his way, protested, too, when he claimed prejudice. And - this is not about what kind of person he is, but about justice - if Delphi murders are not his crime, but they affected his case, it is not fair. Regardless of the fact that he is a pedophile and a criminal.

GK - not the upstanding citizen, and is involved in two murders, but if he is not culpable for the Delphi case, it should not reflect on his term, or prison stay.

What about other people, young and old, whom Internet gossip connects to the murders? Maybe one is guilty, two at best, but what about the rest of the list? How can people go through job interviews, dates, plan weddings? The shade of this case affects lives, and whether these people are upstanding citizens, or not, everyone is responsible only for his own.

This is one more reason why, just IMO, ISP has to review what it has shared with the public, and consider sharing more.

- for the girls
- for their families
- for everyone who is still at the risk of being attacked by the BG
- for everyone innocent on that “poi list of public opinions”
 
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I just came across another tidbit from another case I've followed for literally decades. The Colonial Parkway Murders. Probably the best podcast - or any medium for that matter - to listen to is "Mind Over Murder" with the brother of one of the victims, Bill Thomas.

In the 01 March episode he and his co-host interview a criminologist, Dr. Laura Pettler. About 10 minutes into the episode she drops this quote: "You don't leave a crime scene like you entered it." Meaning that psychologically the killer leaves with a different state of mind than when they entered. Emotions are higher, apprehension or realization of consequences is high. Because of this murderers have been known to commit traffic violations such as running a red light or stop sign, speeding, etc. Her suggestion is to check traffic violations as far out as 100 miles from the scene.

It would be interesting to know if LE did that here.

You know… He absolutely could. Great idea.
 
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That is so interesting. I just wondered because like the poster said, even the killer could just blend in so easily and no one would even know. His DNA could be deposited anywhere along with the other searchers. As much as I think it is wonderful that people gather together and volunteer their time to help find missing people, it would be prudent if LE were to do like you said, require a photo ID with contact information just to keep check of who was there legitimately. Thanks.
To explain DNA presence the killer would need to "find" the crime scene and any volunteer searcher who found bodies would obviously be noted by law enforcement. That's a risk only the dumbest and most attention seeking killer would feel the need to take. Steve Pankey is a dumb attention seeker and he did join the search for Jonelle Matthews but he didn't "find" her.
 
I just came across another tidbit from another case I've followed for literally decades. The Colonial Parkway Murders. Probably the best podcast - or any medium for that matter - to listen to is "Mind Over Murder" with the brother of one of the victims, Bill Thomas.

In the 01 March episode he and his co-host interview a criminologist, Dr. Laura Pettler. About 10 minutes into the episode she drops this quote: "You don't leave a crime scene like you entered it." Meaning that psychologically the killer leaves with a different state of mind than when they entered. Emotions are higher, apprehension or realization of consequences is high. Because of this murderers have been known to commit traffic violations such as running a red light or stop sign, speeding, etc. Her suggestion is to check traffic violations as far out as 100 miles from the scene.

It would be interesting to know if LE did that here.


Interesting! I also do believe that this person has had some running with the law prior to this. Especially considering the choice of time and place for the murders being so high risk. It is my best bet that if this person is high risk in a crime like this, he is also high risk in other areas in his life.
 
If LE already knows who the killer is, why bother to put out two different drawings of the suspect? They would already know what he looks like.
Why could they investigate all these other criminals like DN who commit violent crimes?

I can only hope it is JBC because otherwise, I don't think they have a clue.
Perhaps they put out the second sketch as it matches someone who they’ve come to believe is the perp, but lack any real evidence, in the hope that someone might recognise him and give LE some leads / tips to generate a stronger case?

Just playing devils advocate- i don’t think think LE has any idea who BG is.
 
If it is not JBC then why the media blackout and lack of appeals now? JBC was complaining re media/connection to this case after his arrest. He could change his plea before sentencing? (Not certain on legal side).

He made some strange posts re a redhead on his FB, maybe he was stalking AW?

He seems clumsy enough to leave a phone since he was caught with the poor young girl mid crime.
 
... And - this is not about what kind of person he is, but about justice - if Delphi murders are not his crime, but they affected his case, it is not fair. Regardless of the fact that he is a pedophile and a criminal.
[ ... ]
What about other people, young and old, whom Internet gossip connects to the murders? Maybe one is guilty, two at best, but what about the rest of the list? How can people go through job interviews, dates, plan weddings? The shade of this case affects lives, ...
Very true and a very important consideration. And also, IMO, when we focus on appearances of guilt or coincidences with persons of interest, not only do we affect their lives, but we're pulling attention *away* from the actual criminal(s) at the same time. It's a good reminder: Spending hours talking about how the Delphi florist's delivery boy has baggy jeans and thus might be BG isn't fair to him and is just that much attention that's not going in the right area. By the way, your message earns double bonus points for using "whom" correctly. :) Good grammar counts! :)
 
To explain DNA presence the killer would need to "find" the crime scene and any volunteer searcher who found bodies would obviously be noted by law enforcement. That's a risk only the dumbest and most attention seeking killer would feel the need to take. Steve Pankey is a dumb attention seeker and he did join the search for Jonelle Matthews but he didn't "find" her.
I could see JBC doing just that. IMO
 
"someone may have seen this person leaving the crime scene or going to the crime scene, but we’ve never been able to put that information together with enough evidence to show who that person was and that they committed this crime." - Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Robert Ives, prosecutor at the time of the initial investigation speaking to media in July 2020.
Interesting quote to consider there. It sounds like they actually do have a witness or witnesses who saw someone coming or going from the crime scene. Perhaps they even named someone by name but they haven't got enough evidence to charge whomever that person is for some reason or another. This quote makes me think they may actually think they know who is responsible, but cannot proceed at this time without more solid evidence. They only have one kick at the can so to speak, and if they lose in court, the killer goes free and cannot be charged again with the same crime. Damn. I'd be weary too of going after someone without super strong evidence!

If I were to interpret his phrase, I'd think differently. Perhaps a witness, or maybe even two witnesses, saw a man close to what later became known as the CS, but that person was unknown to them, bundled up and average-looking. There was a reason for the witness/witnesses to pay attention to him. MOO - he was not local and had certain intense aura to him. Perhaps no one looked into his eyes, because of dangerous vibes he emanated. But whoever they saw, served the foundation for YBG sketch. I am sure that if the murderer is ever caught, he will not resemble the sketch, in details, but will "look sort of like" YBG.

And then he disappeared. And never came back again, and has no ties to Delphi. He was not seen on the CS, he was not seen killing the girls, so even being at that place on that day will not be enough to convict him. However, if ISP at least finds him out and connects the dots, it might be easier precisely because of his lack of connection to the place.

MOO:

He knows how to not leave internet trail, or phone trail, or obvious DNA.
Maybe a gamer, or working in some technology field, and education-wise and age- wise, he is a generation younger than DC or TL.

The physical description that ISP provided is the closest to what we have, so i'd trust them here, more or less.

About Delphi murderer being a hunter and a fisherman. I go with what ISP said, unless he honed up his hunting skills by preying on people?

I believe he is either a regular person in IT industry who probably grew up at MW and hunted as a kid, or, alternatively, he is a hunter and a blue collar but is an autodidact and could work in computer industry, with some training.

So far, he has not left any DNA in any genealogy website and sees to it that his relatives don't do so, either. I suspect his family does not connect him to the Delphi case, but he may have hinted to them at other crime, hit-and-run, for example. So they are protecting him, but don't quite know what from.

(He could be erasing information connecting him to Delphi, and maybe, to Indiana, from the Internet, wherever he can do it. But if ISP catches him, this very fact might be his biggest downfall).

About DNA. I always assumed he left at least a hair (shaft) at the CS, but what if he were wearing a wig made of human hair? Then it is not his mito DNA. Touch DNA, bad as it is, might be more reliable.

Couple of questions.

I Googled "is it easy to obtain a hunting license" re two states, WA and MA (technology states with game available; I could have chosen NY or even TX).

Question to hunters: Is there a point when a person willing to obtain a license for the first time would have to go through any classes or courses? In any state? There is no such thing as "federal" license covering all states, I assume? Or can one purchase a license for several MW states?

About him "knowing the lay of the land"...
After Richard "Bebo" Russell easily stole Q-400 from an airport and took off and was flying for 15 minutes, with zero (nada!) pilot training except for flight simulator game, one wonders if "knowing" is that important. There are Google Maps, of course, but what about "geography simulator" games? (Unless TL mentions something very special, that can't be on any map? Doubtful, as everything is somewhere online today).

And a very faraway question about "the signatures". I have read about them enough to understand that they might develop in the process of killing, and might even change. But has there ever been a case when a SK would leave a "written" signature that he also has tattooed somewhere into his body? How common is it? Delphi murderer, I believe, is not sharing with anyone, so maybe he has a specific tattoo? JMO - if they had several signatures, and one was "written", maybe it could be released? Someone could have seen, or made, a tattoo...
 
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I think our predator had no job at the time..had nothing to do...would drive around looking for girls when he had access to a car ..he would always be on the look out...he may have been sleeping in or around the park and had already zeroed in on these girls prior. with abby living close by..there is really nothing to do and besides maybe wandering over to a small business area and hang around ..but not too much to be noticeable..and keeping a low profile..maybe he was doing some odds and ends work or stealing stuff to fence...maybe looking for work while camping out as a temporary solution.

sometimes killers get incredibly lucky..like you will hear police interviews where killers will say they got lucky..no one was around..the opportunity fell in my lap...or they were just out and they saw a girl and then followed the girl and overpowered her.

was he after these particular girls and intended to ascend on them wether in that park or on a street?..we just don't know...

he could end up saying he had been watching one of them or both of them for days even weeks.. he followed them , waited for a chance to find them alone.

out there, just about everything is a country setting..the park may not even have been relevant..

just saying..

mOO
 
Look at Bundy, Rodney Alcala.. does higher education help a killer elude capture..?

but if there is an intellectual or cult religion motive wrapped in this mess...I'm sure we will hear about it in coming months...I am expecting that this case is going to get a very different treatment once the move happens.

I doubt he is swooning over poetry..but he could be...crazy people like to develop magical connections and may perceive instructions from the universe or from poetry or even just voices in their heads..

when I say crazy I mean mentally ill or manic...criminally insane...depraved... I would definitely call JBC a depraved individual..

You could look through his FB writings for references or imitation of turn of phrase. Personally I don't think he has much talent in this department.

mOO
 
Yes JBC is an unlikely I would say impossible fit fit (unless a hanger on to a larger group) though I am one of those who do not not think it is him. The post about Delphi/the cave is fascinating and thank you for the links. I actually taught Greek myth for 20 years in a university and yet had not thought of the connection! The yearbook name, the Oracle very interesting.

It would explain some things e.g. the 'odd' crime scene - the inability to solve the case if LE is looking or a more basic perverted individual . Signatures is so broad a term and it could be something more unusual there is a good chance of that i.e. not just a type of knife wound etc. Could a basic guy like Carter be interpreting the 'religious' nature of the crime scene in more Judeo Christian terms he is familiar with when really it is more 'pagan'.

One person who was and maybe is still being investigated for sure had a higher university type education his life no doubt has already been messed up by rumour it is why I was so vague in my earlier post.

Does the cave still exist? I would think so but the info about gravel pits etc. makes me wonder. This is way out I realize but could the cave be the crime scene? I realize it is likely they were killed where found but we do not 100% know that. If anyone can tell us please do we need the exact location vis a vis the crime scene.

We have all wondered why the phone was left we have to broach the possibility that the answer is ....on purpose.

It would also explain the reticence of LE to provide info - it would be sensational to media.

OK just read a post posted close to my previous so the cave exists. Can someone map it?
 
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I could see JBC doing just that. IMO


yes yes he would totally do this, he really 100 percent would..I think the loves pretending and playing the helpful idiot..he's so sure of himself..thinks he's good enough to be a cop or a fireman..I definitely think he switched up his look and came back..it had to be super exciting for him to see the chaos he caused...and to be in there in the middle of the drama while he probably had death scene photos on his phone...

thats totally who he is.
mOO

added...I bet if he had gotten away with murdering his child victim...he would have gone out afterwards while she lay in his basement and looked for her with the neighbors..maybe even with one of his dogs..
 
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yes yes he would totally do this, he really 100 percent would..I think the loves pretending and playing the helpful idiot..he's so sure of himself..thinks he's good enough to be a cop or a fireman..I definitely think he switched up his look and came back..it had to be super exciting for him to see the chaos he caused...and to be in there in the middle of the drama while he probably had death scene photos on his phone...

thats totally who he is.
mOO

added...I bet if he had gotten away with murdering his child victim...he would have gone out afterwards while she lay in his basement and looked for her with the neighbors..maybe even with one of his dogs..
Oops, I am nearly convinced now, that you may be right. But is he really the one, who "came quickly around" after the murder, as police said? I think, he hadn't the ability to escape and cover up so well like someone other with more brain, much better connections, strong fake alibis and support of some VIPs (very important people).
 
If it is not JBC then why the media blackout and lack of appeals now? JBC was complaining re media/connection to this case after his arrest. He could change his plea before sentencing? (Not certain on legal side).

He made some strange posts re a redhead on his FB, maybe he was stalking AW?

He seems clumsy enough to leave a phone since he was caught with the poor young girl mid crime.

Interesting idea that he may have been stalking AW... Hadn't thought of that possibility previously. He wasn't doing a super good job of it if that is what he was doing then was he, since she was nowhere near the abduction / crime scene when it happened.
 
Yes JBC is an unlikely I would say impossible fit fit (unless a hanger on to a larger group) though I am one of those who do not not think it is him. The post about Delphi/the cave is fascinating and thank you for the links. I actually taught Greek myth for 20 years in a university and yet had not thought of the connection! The yearbook name, the Oracle very interesting.

It would explain some things e.g. the 'odd' crime scene - the inability to solve the case if LE is looking or a more basic perverted individual . Signatures is so broad a term and it could be something more unusual there is a good chance of that i.e. not just a type of knife wound etc. Could a basic guy like Carter be interpreting the 'religious' nature of the crime scene in more Judeo Christian terms he is familiar with when really it is more 'pagan'.

One person who was and maybe is still being investigated for sure had a higher university type education his life no doubt has already been messed up by rumour it is why I was so vague in my earlier post.

Does the cave still exist? I would think so but the info about gravel pits etc. makes me wonder. This is way out I realize but could the cave be the crime scene? I realize it is likely they were killed where found but we do not 100% know that. If anyone can tell us please do we need the exact location vis a vis the crime scene.

We have all wondered why the phone was left we have to broach the possibility that the answer is ....on purpose.

It would also explain the reticence of LE to provide info - it would be sensational to media.

OK just read a post posted close to my previous so the cave exists. Can someone map it?

LE have told us in media that they believe they were killed where they were found. I don't have the quote handy but I'm sure I've read that here on WS often enough to know it exists.

I have also suggested previously that the perp may have known about and left the phone for LE to find as a means to taunt them. He may have known he was on the phone in voice or video. Hell, he could even have added some footage of his own for police to find. I do recall one officer or prosecutor saying there was a look of terror on one of the girl's faces. If the recording was made briefly as the perp walked towards them, and the audio is muffled perhaps being due to being hidden in LG's pocket etc then how is there footage to show the terror on a girl's face unless the perp took the footage or directed one girl to film the other, then left it there for LE to find?
 
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