Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #138

[CCJD]

LE have told us in media that they believe they were killed where they were found. I don't have the quote handy but I'm sure I've read that here on WS often enough to know it exists.

I have also suggested previously that the perp may have known about and left the phone for LE to find as a means to taunt them. He may have known he was on the phone in voice or video. Hell, he could even have added some footage of his own for police to find. I do recall one officer or prosecutor saying there was a look of terror on one of the girl's faces. If the recording was made briefly as the perp walked towards them, and the audio is muffled perhaps being due to being hidden in LG's pocket etc then how is there footage to show the terror on a girl's face unless the perp took the footage or directed one girl to film the other, then left it there for LE to find?

1st bolded -
Q. Do you know if the girls were found where they were killed or if they were moved post mortem?

A. Answered previously. Found where they were killed.
Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet

2nd bolded - do have a link to "terror on one of the girl's faces"?

 

[MollyDDD]

Very true and a very important consideration. And also, IMO, when we focus on appearances of guilt or coincidences with persons of interest, not only do we affect their lives, but we're pulling attention *away* from the actual criminal(s) at the same time. It's a good reminder: Spending hours talking about how the Delphi florist's delivery boy has baggy jeans and thus might be BG isn't fair to him and is just that much attention that's not going in the right area. By the way, your message earns double bonus points for using "whom" correctly. Good grammar counts!

 

[Shanabanana]

If I were to interpret his phrase, I'd think differently. Perhaps a witness, or maybe even two witnesses, saw a man close to what later became known as the CS, but that person was unknown to them, bundled up and average-looking. There was a reason for the witness/witnesses to pay attention to him. MOO - he was not local and had certain intense aura to him. Perhaps no one looked into his eyes, because of dangerous vibes he emanated. But whoever they saw, served the foundation for YBG sketch. I am sure that if the murderer is ever caught, he will not resemble the sketch, in details, but will "look sort of like" YBG.

And then he disappeared. And never came back again, and has no ties to Delphi. He was not seen on the CS, he was not seen killing the girls, so even being at that place on that day will not be enough to convict him. However, if ISP at least finds him out and connects the dots, it might be easier precisely because of his lack of connection to the place.

MOO:

He knows how to not leave internet trail, or phone trail, or obvious DNA.
Maybe a gamer, or working in some technology field, and education-wise and age- wise, he is a generation younger than DC or TL.

The physical description that ISP provided is the closest to what we have, so i'd trust them here, more or less.

About Delphi murderer being a hunter and a fisherman. I go with what ISP said, unless he honed up his hunting skills by preying on people?

I believe he is either a regular person in IT industry who probably grew up at MW and hunted as a kid, or, alternatively, he is a hunter and a blue collar but is an autodidact and could work in computer industry, with some training.

So far, he has not left any DNA in any genealogy website and sees to it that his relatives don't do so, either. I suspect his family does not connect him to the Delphi case, but he may have hinted to them at other crime, hit-and-run, for example. So they are protecting him, but don't quite know what from.

(He could be erasing information connecting him to Delphi, and maybe, to Indiana, from the Internet, wherever he can do it. But if ISP catches him, this very fact might be his biggest downfall).

About DNA. I always assumed he left at least a hair (shaft) at the CS, but what if he were wearing a wig made of human hair? Then it is not his mito DNA. Touch DNA, bad as it is, might be more reliable.

Couple of questions.

I Googled "is it easy to obtain a hunting license" re two states, WA and MA (technology states with game available; I could have chosen NY or even TX).

Question to hunters: Is there a point when a person willing to obtain a license for the first time would have to go through any classes or courses? In any state? There is no such thing as "federal" license covering all states, I assume? Or can one purchase a license for several MW states?

About him "knowing the lay of the land"...
After Richard "Bebo" Russell easily stole Q-400 from an airport and took off and was flying for 15 minutes, with zero (nada!) pilot training except for flight simulator game, one wonders if "knowing" is that important. There are Google Maps, of course, but what about "geography simulator" games? (Unless TL mentions something very special, that can't be on any map? Doubtful, as everything is somewhere online today).

And a very faraway question about "the signatures". I have read about them enough to understand that they might develop in the process of killing, and might even change. But has there ever been a case when a SK would leave a "written" signature that he also has tattooed somewhere into his body? How common is it? Delphi murderer, I believe, is not sharing with anyone, so maybe he has a specific tattoo? JMO - if they had several signatures, and one was "written", maybe it could be released? Someone could have seen, or made, a tattoo...

I think you are mixing up «signatures” and MO (Modus Operandi) here. MOs change, but I am pretty sure signatures does not. Also, even tho I am pretty sure this person has been involved in crime before, we shouldn’t jump to conclusions and just assume he has killed before.

 

[Charlot123]

I think you are mixing up «signatures” and MO (Modus Operandi) here. MOs change, but I am pretty sure signatures does not. Also, even tho I am pretty sure this person has been involved in crime before, we shouldn’t jump to conclusions and just assume he has killed before.

Not MO. Signatures. The story of Bitsa maniac was an eye-opener to me, maybe because they provided so much information. He was active from 2001 to 2006, while his first killing he committed in 1992 at the age of 18. All in all, 49 victims. MO stayed the same for a while, then changed. Victim profile was predominantly the same, but some victims were younger.

About signatures. In Bitsa case, I think, writing a number on a chessboard square and covering that square with paper after each murder could be definitely viewed as a signature. But since 2005, he developed another signature (certain pm manipulation with the bodies, always the same, not posing or staging, not necessarily at all and not MO). So I would assume that signatures can emerge in the course of the killer’s activity, and new signatures can be added to old ones. I think he even explained why he did it the first time, and then, he continued.

But about them being unchanged. Bitsa maniac was asked whether he would have stopped killing, having filled in all 64 squares of his board. The maniac replied that he had thought about it and decided to buy a 100-square checkerboard and just continue after the 64-square board would be filled in. So, perhaps, this testifies to some possible margin of variations in signatures?

 

[FromGermany1]

Interesting idea that he may have been stalking AW... Hadn't thought of that possibility previously. He wasn't doing a super good job of it if that is what he was doing then was he, since she was nowhere near the abduction / crime scene when it happened.

I don't know, why exactly, but can it be, the BG stalked mothers of teenagers plus their daughters, then killed either the mother or the teenager/s?

 

[photographer4]

1st bolded -
Q. Do you know if the girls were found where they were killed or if they were moved post mortem?

A. Answered previously. Found where they were killed.
Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet

2nd bolded - do have a link to "terror on one of the girl's faces"?

I'm looking for that quote but pls note, where you've quoted me is not something I've directly quoted myself. Its loosely paraphrased. I cannot recall who said it, but I'll see if I can find it.

 

[photographer4]

I'm looking for that quote but pls note, where you've quoted me is not something I've directly quoted myself. Its loosely paraphrased. I cannot recall who said it, but I'll see if I can find it.

I've searched about and actually, its posted here in WS - apparently the quote came from True Crime Garage which I believe is a podcast regarding true crimes.

You can read the post where I read this info here: Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124 (post #44).

Post #46 is by SillyBilly (a WS admin) and this is what they had to say about the matter: "Forced to watch" was removed due to it being social media comment. There is a distinction between "forced to watch" (terminology sourced via rumor) vs "watching what is happening" (from an approved source)."

 

[photographer4]

I don't know, why exactly, but can it be, the BG stalked mothers of teenagers plus their daughters, then killed either the mother or the teenager/s?

I suppose that could be the way this went down - who knows? HOping police know more than we know.

 

[Peppery]

Interesting idea that he may have been stalking AW... Hadn't thought of that possibility previously. He wasn't doing a super good job of it if that is what he was doing then was he, since she was nowhere near the abduction / crime scene when it happened.

Not the OP, but I believe AW is Abigail Williams. He had posts about “the little red-haired girl” on his FB. Moo

 

[Yemelyan]

I think you are mixing up «signatures” and MO (Modus Operandi) here. MOs change, but I am pretty sure signatures does not. Also, even tho I am pretty sure this person has been involved in crime before, we shouldn’t jump to conclusions and just assume he has killed before.

We don't know if the person involved in this crime has killed before, but - the ritualistic or repetitive acts that determine an offender's "signature" absolutely can change over time and research has shown this. These signature acts are outgrowths of the offender's fantasies or psycho-sexual arousal patterns, which are subject to change just like anyone else's. The offender may experiment, he may gain new fantasies that he acts out; in addition, he may encounter unique circumstances at a particular crime scene that make him unable to carry out exactly what he intended (the victim is not cooperative and so his pattern shifts to re-gaining control instead of acting out the fantasy, a witness suddenly appears and he has to flee before he is finished, etc).

Psychologists would say, however, that the essential "core" of the signature likely remains very similar across crimes. An example would be - if the offender has fantasized about disfiguring the victim, at one crime he may incise the victim's face; at the next scene he does the same; but at the third scene he tinkers with his patterns and may also mutilate genitalia in addition to or instead of the face. His fantasy is evolving or he's seeing what else he can do that will heighten his enjoyment of the crime; however, he stays within the same general core of his signature, which is the sexual arousal that comes from cutting/mutilation. Profilers would say that it's less likely that an offender would change the core of the fantasy dramatically - i.e. suddenly start sexually posing victims, for example, when previously his signature behavior was something like taking items of clothing as trophies.

All MOO but here's just one source for info about it: Ritual and Signature in Serial Sexual Homicide

 

[photographer4]

I've searched about and actually, its posted here in WS - apparently the quote came from True Crime Garage which I believe is a podcast regarding true crimes.

You can read the post where I read this info here: Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124 (post #44).

Post #46 is by SillyBilly (a WS admin) and this is what they had to say about the matter: "Forced to watch" was removed due to it being social media comment. There is a distinction between "forced to watch" (terminology sourced via rumor) vs "watching what is happening" (from an approved source)."

So again I have to say, there MUST be more on the video in order for someone connected to the investigation to have made that comment at all. They probably aren't releasing it for some good reason as well - maybe its just not prudent to release given the look on the girl's face as she sees something, or maybe its evidence that would easily identify the killer if he were to confess? Eg: if the killer had details about what was happening in that moment, they would know he was legit.

So who recorded the girl's face and on what device? We're not told if this was found on LG's phone, or some other device found near / at the scene. We're not told who recorded it. Its possible the killer recorded something of his own on LG's device and left it for police to find. Or, he perhaps recorded something on his own device and left it / forgot it there and police found it. OR maybe something was captured on a trail cam and police retrieved it and the killer may not even have known the device was there recording at all.

We simply do not know. But what that statement does tell us, is there is more video than LE has shared with us from whatever source, recorded by whomever for whatever reason and they have it. Now we have to hope they can do something with it that will lead to the killer being captured.

 

[Justice101]

following

 

[Yemelyan]

So again I have to say, there MUST be more on the video in order for someone connected to the investigation to have made that comment at all. They probably aren't releasing it for some good reason as well - maybe its just not prudent to release given the look on the girl's face as she sees something, or maybe its evidence that would easily identify the killer if he were to confess? Eg: if the killer had details about what was happening in that moment, they would know he was legit.

So who recorded the girl's face and on what device? We're not told if this was found on LG's phone, or some other device found near / at the scene. We're not told who recorded it. Its possible the killer recorded something of his own on LG's device and left it for police to find. Or, he perhaps recorded something on his own device and left it / forgot it there and police found it. OR maybe something was captured on a trail cam and police retrieved it and the killer may not even have known the device was there recording at all.

We simply do not know. But what that statement does tell us, is there is more video than LE has shared with us from whatever source, recorded by whomever for whatever reason and they have it. Now we have to hope they can do something with it that will lead to the killer being captured.

I know the quote from LE that you are looking for. It's from the podcast Down the Hill, episode 4, part of an interview with the press information officer, Sgt. Riley. The conversation starts around minute 6:30. They are discussing the video taken on Libby's cell phone in particular, to answer your question. He doesn't say he saw one girl's face watching what happened to her friend. Here is the actual statement:

Host: When we sat down with Sgt. Kim Riley, he actually told us about learning of that video.
Riley: I myself learned probably within 24 hours...sometime late in the afternoon of the next day...I knew pretty early what they had and we were trying to decide what we could do with it and what we wanted to do with it....
Host: I want to go back to the video for a moment, have you seen the whole video?
Riley: Yes.
Host: Without telling us the parts you don't want to release, can you tell us what that's like to watch that video?
Riley: It was scary. Uh...I guess would be one way to put it. It was just...seeing, um...just seeing the feelings that were going through the girls at the time. I'm not going to say which one in particular, but...just knowing what they knew is just, just frightening for a 13, 14 year old girl to know. And I just think, it kind of went through my mind over and over again. Every now and again, I'll think about it. For the first 6 to 8 months, it was something I was going through for all the time. I was always thinking about it. It was just very heart-wrenching for an adult to deal with, let alone a 13 or 14 year old girl. It was scary, it was, uh, I felt so sad that there was nothing I could do, but...that's the way it is, you know. Unfortunately we aren't there for our kids all the time and sometimes bad things happen. That's the only way I can explain it.


Source: Chapter 4: Three Words - Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders - Omny.fm

 

[minazoe]

its hard to imagine they were delighted at being abducted...I think it goes with out saying that the girls were horrified and terrified and that it was scary..
I'm sorry but even asking what it was like to watch it or to try to dig into what was in it is just salacious and
sick..

here's my answer

watching it is an unfortunate part of my job there is no way to describe what it is like and I will not go into any details about what was seen or what I sensed at the time.

mOO

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

We don't know if the person involved in this crime has killed before, but - the ritualistic or repetitive acts that determine an offender's "signature" absolutely can change over time and research has shown this. These signature acts are outgrowths of the offender's fantasies or psycho-sexual arousal patterns, which are subject to change just like anyone else's. The offender may experiment, he may gain new fantasies that he acts out; in addition, he may encounter unique circumstances at a particular crime scene that make him unable to carry out exactly what he intended (the victim is not cooperative and so his pattern shifts to re-gaining control instead of acting out the fantasy, a witness suddenly appears and he has to flee before he is finished, etc).

Psychologists would say, however, that the essential "core" of the signature likely remains very similar across crimes. An example would be - if the offender has fantasized about disfiguring the victim, at one crime he may incise the victim's face; at the next scene he does the same; but at the third scene he tinkers with his patterns and may also mutilate genitalia in addition to or instead of the face. His fantasy is evolving or he's seeing what else he can do that will heighten his enjoyment of the crime; however, he stays within the same general core of his signature, which is the sexual arousal that comes from cutting/mutilation. Profilers would say that it's less likely that an offender would change the core of the fantasy dramatically - i.e. suddenly start sexually posing victims, for example, when previously his signature behavior was something like taking items of clothing as trophies.

All MOO but here's just one source for info about it: Ritual and Signature in Serial Sexual Homicide

Are these ritualistic or repetitive acts considered to be on the obsessive compulsive spectrum?

 

[photographer4]

its hard to imagine they were delighted at being abducted...I think it goes with out saying that the girls were horrified and terrified and that it was scary..
I'm sorry but even asking what it was like to watch it or to try to dig into what was in it is just salacious and
sick..

here's my answer

watching it is an unfortunate part of my job there is no way to describe what it is like and I will not go into any details about what was seen or what I sensed at the time.

mOO

I completely understand your position and to be clear, I wasn't asking what their experience was (of course it was terrifying!) nor what their facial expressions were. I'm not even trying to dig into that - I'm more just saying, if an investigator on the case was able to comment that he'd seen the look on one of the girls faces then there must be more to the video than what police have released to the general public (and obviously, with good reason at that).

I have to ask: were you involved in this particular investigation or just investigations in general? What a horrific job!! I imagine vicarious trauma is a real thing for many involved in work such as this.

 

[Yemelyan]

I completely understand your position and to be clear, I wasn't asking what their experience was (of course it was terrifying!) nor what their facial expressions were. I'm not even trying to dig into that - I'm more just saying, if an investigator on the case was able to comment that he'd seen the look on one of the girls faces then there must be more to the video than what police have released to the general public (and obviously, with good reason at that).

I have to ask: were you involved in this particular investigation or just investigations in general? What a horrific job!! I imagine vicarious trauma is a real thing for many involved in work such as this.

To your original point, we know from his full and complete quote that the video/recording was from Libby's cell phone, not a different recording device left at the scene.

We don't know exactly what he meant by "seeing the feelings that were going through the girls at the time;" he doesn't say he saw their faces, or a face. Clearly he saw expressions of fear whether visual or vocalized, and that would be expected.

I don't think releasing video or audio of them expressing their terror will help solve the case. As you pointed out...we likely don't know details about it for good reason. It's a distraction to finding out the identity of the man.

 

[minazoe]

I completely understand your position and to be clear, I wasn't asking what their experience was (of course it was terrifying!) nor what their facial expressions were. I'm not even trying to dig into that - I'm more just saying, if an investigator on the case was able to comment that he'd seen the look on one of the girls faces then there must be more to the video than what police have released to the general public (and obviously, with good reason at that).

I have to ask: were you involved in this particular investigation or just investigations in general? What a horrific job!! I imagine vicarious trauma is a real thing for many involved in work such as this.

oh sorry no, I am not in the investigative field. I was just saying what I think he should have said in response to the question..sorry for the misunderstanding.. that said..I now understand why that interview would. leave you to believe there is more footage ...Thanks. mOO

 

[photographer4]

oh sorry no, I am not in the investigative field. I was just saying what I think he should have said in response to the question..sorry for the misunderstanding.. that said..I now understand why that interview would. leave you to believe there is more footage ...Thanks. mOO

Thanks for clarifying!

Ok folks, I have a possibly new or new to me idea I wanted to bring up. I haven't seen it posted anywhere so maybe it hasn't been considered yet?

Any chance BG was sporting a headset as he crossed the bridge? Have a look at the still frame I found and look at the areas of interest I've outlined.

You may see what could be headphones. Eg: gamer style ones that fit over the ear and may sometimes resemble ear muffs. These may be wired or wireless. You may also notice what may be a mic on a boom arm just infront of the mouth area.

It's NOT a fact that this is what it is. It's merely a possibility I wanted to bring up as I haven't seen it suggested anywhere yet and I want to try to encourage new discussion anytime I can! What are your thoughts on this idea? Delphi Murderer Closeup that's the link where the photo came from. It's I think frame 47 or 48 of the series of stills from BG crossing the bridge released originally by LE. I don't know who broke it into still frames or I would credit them accordingly.

 

[photographer4]

To your original point, we know from his full and complete quote that the video/recording was from Libby's cell phone, not a different recording device left at the scene.

We don't know exactly what he meant by "seeing the feelings that were going through the girls at the time;" he doesn't say he saw their faces, or a face. Clearly he saw expressions of fear whether visual or vocalized, and that would be expected.

I don't think releasing video or audio of them expressing their terror will help solve the case. As you pointed out...we likely don't know details about it for good reason. It's a distraction to finding out the identity of the man.

I hear what you're saying. I took him to mean he saw the face of one of the girls (he wouldn't say which girl). Maybe it was a figure of speech and meant as you stated it vs how I interpreted it.

I'm totally ok with that not being shared or even clarified by LE for so many reasons! The biggest being it was the last moments of the girls lives. No one needs to hear it or see it other than LE in my view.