Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[Yemelyan]

I agree, and I wonder how other crime scenes are processed to avoid the public from getting involved.

Many times, these days, if a person is missing and it is thought that foul play is involved, the public is no longer allowed to help search on a voluntary basis. So that's how they ensure it.

The fact that they asked for and allowed voluntary searching on the part of the public the day after Abby and Libby went missing is a sign, IMO, that authorities still did not seriously consider the idea that a crime had occurred.

 

[FromGermany1]

One thing is, he poorly controls his emotions, so some fights on SM are possible.

IMO, he is lenient with us, because he knows everything about the crime and knows, that we know next to nothing. He doesn't need fights at all.

 

[acutename]

not sure at all if A & L were killed by a serial killer but I did read up a bit more and that "hiding in plain sight" ... seems that at least some serial killers leave no clues for their families. There are a lot of articles but I remember reading this a long time ago:

We even asked Rader why he didn't target his wife? He looked shocked at the question. He said he didn't kill anyone he knew. His victims were just "objects.

But he did admit that his wife was terrified of BTK. He says he once reassured her by telling her to keep all the windows and doors locked. "I wasn't really worried," he told us, "since I knew I was the one doing the killing."


BTK: Out Of The Shadows - CBS News

CBS News - Breaking news, 24/7 live streaming news & top stories › news › btk-out-of-the-shad...


so if there is "an alibi," it might be pretty sincere from the person offering it

 

[acutename]

I have also wondered if there were "signs" as LE has said, who were those left for? LE? everyone? the town? some real or perceived "enemy" of BG? signs are in some way an attempt to communicate something but we are not getting the message, IMO.

 

[Spartygirl]

ok I don't usually hop on the LE f up bandwagon, BUT they know all the usual suspects out there ..they know who they are..

but using L&A as an excuse to make 13 arrests really does nothing to open the mouths of people who could help.

and a huge mistake to not think they were either kidnapped on the way to being trafficked or possibly lying in a ditch somewhere..( which they were).

I don't think any amber alert would have helped but it shows possibly something wrong with the reaction to their disappearance..somehow disbelief played a factor in a lack of clear thinking..

I feel like they went all Barney Fife spaz attack and unleashed 10 gazillion people into the woods.

I see how it all could happen though, and I understand it,

just my observation.. and all been said before...mOO

I 100% AGREE with every part of this.

 

[MollyDDD]

Many times, these days, if a person is missing and it is thought that foul play is involved, the public is no longer allowed to help search on a voluntary basis. So that's how they ensure it.

The fact that they asked for and allowed voluntary searching on the part of the public the day after Abby and Libby went missing is a sign, IMO, that authorities still did not seriously consider the idea that a crime had occurred.

Perhaps then, this has something to do with the “authorities” in charge.

 

[AC4RD]

... This is the back and forth that rolls around in my mind.

1) Did the killer really think his chances were any good of randomly cornering somebody at the south end of the bridge that particular day? *I know, but school was out...
2) Did the girls not see the vehicle parked below and say something during the audio? *it could have been hidden...
3) Would he risk it after being seen and talking to somebody in the area? *he's a risk-taker, clearly, so he didn't care...
4) What makes this dog-walking "witness" any more reliable than the witnesses who saw him on the trail, exiting the cemetery, or any of the other non-LE-confirmed "witnesses"? *because...
5) Why did LE not ask for any information on vehicles on that private road? *for the integrity of the investigation...

Then again, I can have these back and forths with any scenario.

Reading your last sentence, I laughed out loud--exact same here; for any given scenario I can argue for any point and then turn around and argue against the same point. But your #3 is another of those "Why didn't I think of that before?" points. If Dog-Walking Woman really interacted with him, he must have seriously considered abandoning the murder mission. DWW presumably got a decent look at him, heard his voice; BG must have known she might have been able to identify him.

And DWW--she would have noticed him, right? There's an argument for his NOT being a Delphi regular; she might well have recognized BG if she saw him a few times a month in town. if she talked to him at all, she would have noticed and remembered; BG would have been an odd sight ...

Policeman: "Did you notice anything odd about this man you talked to?"

Dog-walking woman: "Well, he had on a jacket over his hoodie even though it was fairly warm when I saw him. He had the hood up and a scarf around the bottom of his face, and he had a pistol in one jacket pocket, and a big knife sticking out of his fanny pack, and a jug of laundry bleach, and he had a puppy inside his jacket ... puppy or maybe a baby goat, it was hard to see ..."

I started rambling there but your third question raises a LOT of issues I hadn't considered, thanks! I've said it before: The Delphi Murders case has questions the way old barns have mice.

 

[LeBlack]

A retired FBI agent I heard on a podcast suggested that some people try recreational murder, but instead of becoming regular serial killers, they find the experience unpleasant or frightening or not as satisfying as they expected. So in her suggestion: BG might have wanted to be a killer-for-pleasure but tried (Abby & Libby) it and didn't want to do it again, for whatever reason. That was this agent's belief: I'm not endorsing the idea, though it sounds plausible.

That would be someone that isn't high on the psychopathy scale, (firestarter, torture animals, etc) but rather for another reason (ie to make money) and the fear was too high. Psychopaths don't feel fear in the way normally wired people would.

IMO, MOO

 

[Jerrod]

On the topic of volunteer searchers, this is somewhat unrelated, but human remains were found earlier today by volunteers searching for 26-year-old Katelynn Berry, who went missing in Montana on December 21st. (It’s undoubtedly her.) Though she apparently had mental health issues and was not immediately reported missing by her family, her disappearance was deemed suspicious because her mother was a local prosecutor and there was talk of a revenge motive. A criminal investigation was opened on January 3rd. Yet, volunteer searches were conducted early on.

Remains found during search for missing daughter of Grand Forks prosecutor

So, speaking hypothetically, let’s say the investigators made the quick decision that the girls’ disappearance was indeed suspicious, and the public wasn’t allowed to conduct a volunteer search. (How would the area off limits even be decided?) Had the girls’ bodies been hidden in a better location and remained undiscovered in, say, the subsequent 24-48 hours, at what point would volunteers then be allowed to help? And once they eventually found the girls, and the coroner wasn’t able to pinpoint their time of death, how loud would the outcry be that the girls might have been found alive had volunteers been allowed to assist from the start?

 

[minazoe]

I honestly thought I had trouble with the whole 30 minutes scenario.. that the whole crime was over in 30 minutes ...but you can do a lot in 30 minutes..has anyone timed the walk from the top of the hill to the creek?

personally I think he was stalking them..and just waiting for a chance to get them alone..maybe he suggested meeting, I don't know but no way was this a random situation..it was something more than random. also I think he may have slipped back or spent the night down there with the girls, staging his scene..if he had a car, he could have moved it into a garage or some other place and slipped back in unnoticed as just another searcher.

I just don't take too much of what we have been told as fact. I also think he has done some creepy communications with the police , maybe sending photos or something like this..or something that points to only something the killer would know. This guy is definitely high on his own f@rts and you just have to know he wants credit and attention...all of those signatures..the staging? this is a guy who wants the full experience...wants to be an SK superstar.

some dirty guy living in a basement somewhere that doesn't want any contact or attention is not our killer,
our killer is a show off and has an enormous ego.

he is exactly the kind of guy who will tell you that people like himself just have a personality flaw and that he is
basically good..just like BTK has been describing himself as of late..

like I'm just misunderstood, thats all...come a little closer....

He scoped these girls out on line...he found out where they lived..he found out where they were going and
killed them for sexual and sad masochistic pleasure. He's not afraid of cops or really anyone, he is missing a chip
and is a real psychopath..he would just continue killing and will continue killing as long as he is in the free world.

mOO

 

[Prime8]

Just musing here but I've been wondering for awhile how much of the "conventional wisdom" about the behavior of killers, including what we think we know about cooling off periods and re-offending, will be turned on its head by the number of cold cases that will continue to be solved by genetic genealogy. It seems to me that one unanticipated result could be finding out that a greater number of killers than previously thought do just simply stop offending due to life circumstances or are one and done. This may trigger a re-evaluation of theories on the behavior of serial killers in particular.

Ding ding ding! You're exactly right and that's what's been happening with a lot of these newly solved DNA cases.

 

[acutename]

Reading your last sentence, I laughed out loud--exact same here; for any given scenario I can argue for any point and then turn around and argue against the same point. But your #3 is another of those "Why didn't I think of that before?" points. If Dog-Walking Woman really interacted with him, he must have seriously considered abandoning the murder mission. DWW presumably got a decent look at him, heard his voice; BG must have known she might have been able to identify him.

And DWW--she would have noticed him, right? There's an argument for his NOT being a Delphi regular; she might well have recognized BG if she saw him a few times a month in town. if she talked to him at all, she would have noticed and remembered; BG would have been an odd sight ...

Policeman: "Did you notice anything odd about this man you talked to?"

Dog-walking woman: "Well, he had on a jacket over his hoodie even though it was fairly warm when I saw him. He had the hood up and a scarf around the bottom of his face, and he had a pistol in one jacket pocket, and a big knife sticking out of his fanny pack, and a jug of laundry bleach, and he had a puppy inside his jacket ... puppy or maybe a baby goat, it was hard to see ..."

I started rambling there but your third question raises a LOT of issues I hadn't considered, thanks! I've said it before: The Delphi Murders case has questions the way old barns have mice.

funny that you brought up the DWW- no idea what dog she was walking, but most dogs react to strange men, and they certainly react to someone who has something hormonal or emotional going on and you cannot hide a puppy from a dog- dogs smell each other about a mile away, so I would really like to know what the DWW's D did in reaction to BG-

 

[Prime8]

That's actually a great point about the complexity of parking and that's why they think BG is local. That's never occurred to me but it's brilliant.

I've been to the area. The trails are long, they go through town but the area around the parking lots, cemetery and bridges are actually quite close together. You could easily get the lay of the land in a short amount of time. But, what I found most confusing in the area were the roads. Even with GPS, we found it hard to make it from place A to B by car. We didn't try to venture onto the private drive, which would have been even more confusing. We basically had to circle everything more than once to figure out if we were in the right place.

If BG didn't know the area, he got insanely lucky with his escape plan. For example, if you happen to find yourself in the cemetery, it wouldn't be obvious that the bridge was right across the creek but it's all very close in proximity. If you walked back to the CPS building from anywhere, you're out in open.

IMO, he knew exactly where to park and where to take the girls for the quickest exit. That would be very hard to figure out in a short period of time. I could see how LE would search RL property and buildings numerous times if they were having trouble figuring out where he could have left unnoticed.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Although a few posters have taken the conversation in this direction, I brought the idea up on the previous page of BG participating in online discussions not because I think he's monitoring what everyone is saying, but because I think he is getting off on the idea of "getting away with it."

And I specifically say "participate," not just read, because I do not believe a narcissistic psychopath who does something like this for enjoyment would be that passive.

With this in mind, I have seen a handful of accounts in various places that I've raised an eyebrow at. Accounts that aren't quite trolling for attention; I would describe them more as piss-taking, and I have to wonder why someone would spend their time doing that on this particular case.

Killers in the past have satisfied their taunting urge (or piss-taking urge) by sending letters with cryptic clues and making threatening phone calls. Nowadays, they just need to create fake profiles and leave weird remarks. I see the latter semi-frequently, and while some are probably just random weirdos, some might be him, and I get frustrated that no one sees it and that there's seemingly nothing we can do about it.

Bullseye!!!
ITA with everything that you said. You really hit the nail on the head, IMHO.
I could not like your comment more, and I would love it, a million times over if I could!

MOO, your comment, it should have received more likes than it already has, because IMHO this comment of yours is by far the best on this entire #141 thread. Hands down.
I too have gotten that feeling more than once.
IMHO there are a few that set off my hinky meter This has only happened with a few, but one in particular.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts about this potentially controversial comment. I wouldn’t have had the courage to do it, which is why I’m so grateful that someone else (you) did.
Applause X infinity!

JMVHO. IMHAspieO. YMMV. moo.

 

[Marlo56]

The bodies were found on RL's nearly 40 acre property. The property near his house (which is on the complete opposite end from where the assumed crime scene is) was searched more than once, including the buildings.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/sea...erty-where-delphi-teens-abby-libby-found-dead

On Friday, Indiana State Police said they had developed more information that led them to request a new search warrant at the property.

"It's just a normal course of this investigation," said ISP Sgt. Tony Slocum. "We've served multiple search warrants so far. They can either exonerate a person or maybe require law enforcement to take a closer look."

There have been many theories about where BG parked, but the only reference to a vehicle given by LE was the one at the CPS lot first mentioned at the April 2019 PC. In May, 2019, KR mentioned it again. The WLFI article's link is now broken, but here's the quote:

"The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area."

IMO, there might have been reason for LE to search and re-search RL's property and buildings. Not because RL was a suspect, but that maybe it's possible LE thought BG might have been around those buildings. KR's statement about the vehicle also insinuates that the vehicle is possibly tied to BG. So if BG planned a kidnapping, why would he park at the farthest, most public parking spot he could find around the trails? If the kidnapping went wrong and he killed them below the cemetery, why walk the opposite direction to RL's buildings (if he did so)? These are all just speculations on my part, of course.

We also have JH quoted as saying:

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

"There’s a lot of false information out there,” Holeman confirms. “Social media, although not new… does impede our investigation. Like when people put up side-by-side photos of innocent people—or, at least, people with no ties to the state of Indiana or Delphi—which creates false [information]. People believe it [though] because it’s on the internet.”

And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

I feel like there is information within these kinds of statements that gets ignored, or molded to fit how we want it to fit. I'm guilty of it, too. LE is vague with the details, for sure, but why do we refuse the crumbs they throw us?

I retrieved the article with the broken link:

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

Thanks for pointing it out. There are two interesting quotes from Riley here.

"We're still looking for the car that was parked in the lot," Riley told News 18. "If somebody can give us that information, we want that information as quickly as possible."

The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area.

[...]

Since police believe the killer is local, and because the case has received so much of their focus over the last two years, News 18 also asked Riley if there was a chance the killer could be someone police have already interviewed.

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."

"The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local."

"after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly."

So something in the "many tips" has led LE to believe BG is local and he must have parked at CPS. And they sound certain about that.

What tips could have led them to believe he was getting around quickly? Knowledge of where he was going and where he was coming from?

""Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for."

"The person" = the killer, right? Am I reading that correctly? So if Riley is able to speculate that the person "gave investigating officers the information they were looking for," are we able to conclude that he has a specific person in mind when he's saying that?

Is he being tongue in cheek when he says he gave them "the information they were looking for," ie what they wanted to hear? Or could it be a sly nod to someone's story falling apart?

Just my speculation. I find those quotes fascinating.

 

[Pimlipo]

The bodies were found on RL's nearly 40 acre property. The property near his house (which is on the complete opposite end from where the assumed crime scene is) was searched more than once, including the buildings.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/sea...erty-where-delphi-teens-abby-libby-found-dead

On Friday, Indiana State Police said they had developed more information that led them to request a new search warrant at the property.

"It's just a normal course of this investigation," said ISP Sgt. Tony Slocum. "We've served multiple search warrants so far. They can either exonerate a person or maybe require law enforcement to take a closer look."

There have been many theories about where BG parked, but the only reference to a vehicle given by LE was the one at the CPS lot first mentioned at the April 2019 PC. In May, 2019, KR mentioned it again. The WLFI article's link is now broken, but here's the quote:

"The importance of the car also ties into why police now believe the killer is local. Riley said after reviewing many tips, investigators determined he was able to get around quickly on the day the girls were killed, and seemed to know the area."

IMO, there might have been reason for LE to search and re-search RL's property and buildings. Not because RL was a suspect, but that maybe it's possible LE thought BG might have been around those buildings. KR's statement about the vehicle also insinuates that the vehicle is possibly tied to BG. So if BG planned a kidnapping, why would he park at the farthest, most public parking spot he could find around the trails? If the kidnapping went wrong and he killed them below the cemetery, why walk the opposite direction to RL's buildings (if he did so)? These are all just speculations on my part, of course.

We also have JH quoted as saying:

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

"There’s a lot of false information out there,” Holeman confirms. “Social media, although not new… does impede our investigation. Like when people put up side-by-side photos of innocent people—or, at least, people with no ties to the state of Indiana or Delphi—which creates false [information]. People believe it [though] because it’s on the internet.”

And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

I feel like there is information within these kinds of statements that gets ignored, or molded to fit how we want it to fit. I'm guilty of it, too. LE is vague with the details, for sure, but why do we refuse the crumbs they throw us?

BBM
Does this not mean they know the car he used and they definitively know where it was at certain times that day?? And if they do know that they surely know who’s car it is.

 

[kkdj]

not sure at all if A & L were killed by a serial killer but I did read up a bit more and that "hiding in plain sight" ... seems that at least some serial killers leave no clues for their families. There are a lot of articles but I remember reading this a long time ago:

We even asked Rader why he didn't target his wife? He looked shocked at the question. He said he didn't kill anyone he knew. His victims were just "objects.

But he did admit that his wife was terrified of BTK. He says he once reassured her by telling her to keep all the windows and doors locked. "I wasn't really worried," he told us, "since I knew I was the one doing the killing."


BTK: Out Of The Shadows - CBS News

CBS News - Breaking news, 24/7 live streaming news & top stories › news › btk-out-of-the-shad...


so if there is "an alibi," it might be pretty sincere from the person offering it

I recall as a late teen, young adult, there was a serial killer in our area that targeted female college students. (his name escapes me right now) Anyway, I was scared to death, especially coming home at night and parking in a structure in an alley.
Well, they finally caught him and lo and behold, not only did he live around the corner from me but he had a family that had absolutely zero suspicion of it being him!

 

[FromGermany1]

Policeman: "Did you notice anything odd about this man you talked to?"

Dog-walking woman: "Well, he had on a jacket over his hoodie even though it was fairly warm when I saw him. He had the hood up and a scarf around the bottom of his face, and he had a pistol in one jacket pocket, and a big knife sticking out of his fanny pack, and a jug of laundry bleach, and he had a puppy inside his jacket ... puppy or maybe a baby goat, it was hard to see ..."

bbm


Looks, as if the man/BG would have searched for a place to murder the puppy. Or worse.

 

[TL4S]

@Pimlipo, I had trouble replying to your post, but here's what you said in regards to KR's statement about the car:

Does this not mean they know the car he used and they definitively know where it was at certain times that day?? And if they do know that they surely know who’s car it is.

I can't be certain how much LE knows about the car, but I found some old posts here on WS referring to KR saying they didn't have the make/model, etc. However, I can't find a link to support that. There's rumors of it being seen by someone who reported it, but again, there's nothing substantial to support that, so we're left only with unconfirmed stories. I could be wrong, but I think if LE had more info on the car, they would have included that in their ask. Jmo.

 

[FrostedGlass]

@TL4S At the beginning of this video, GH says he talked to one of the persons who saw the vehicle parked at the CPS building when he came to work at 8:45 am and it was still there when he left at 2:15. GH clarified that it was an older model car. This video is the one where he talks about the camera locations.