Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #145

[evilwise]

I went to CrimeCon this weekend. There was a psychiatrist who has worked with BTK. He stalked at least 10x as many people as he actually victimized. She noted that during the period of time that he didn't kill anyone, he didn't actually "stop", he just never got an opportunity to kill anyone. He was in fact stalking dozens and dozens of people during this time.

Yes and in today's world with ten cameras pointing out of every building and in every person's pocket, the same person who might have killed dozens in the 60s might never kill anyone or might do just one "perfect kill" that they treasure for their whole lives and engage in new and interesting patterns of behavior in attempts to get closer to the memory of the act. These kind of behaviors are something it would be interesting to work in the psychology of attempting to identify and it would be interesting to ID people engaging in those behaviors - not even criminally but just for the purposes of narrowing the lens of scrutiny about possible connections to actual "cold cases" not that anything ever really goes cold anymore with ten million pages of documentation about everybody in the damn world being generated every day.

 

[Diddian]

Sparty, I agree--we know so little that it's easy to get wrapped up in "what ifs" that spread each other along. My own opinion is that BG must certainly have scouted the south end of the bridge, the ground along the creek and the private property. I think that just because it would be (almost literally) insane to plan to commit a horrible brutal crime without knowing that the area was clear.

It's true that the killer might have been too blinded by bloodlust to have approached the planned abduction rationally ... but I think the sighting of BG by the dog-walking woman 2 hours before the murders suggests that BG was in fact out scouting first.

It appears to me that a good scouting trip could have made the area safe. Because of the terrain and the lack of public access, once BG knew that south area was clear, he could go across the bridge, north to the trail system, and be fairly sure nobody had come back into that area. So once he cleared it, he knew he could follow a victim (or victims) into that area and almost certainly be free from nearby witnesses. Just MHO, but it rings true to me.

IIRC, LG had very recently visited MHB with her older sister, KG. I think I remember that they had been playing GeoCache and had found a cache close to the bridge.

Since it sounds like LE found the social media activity involving LG and A_Shots early on, I assume LE must have looked at any local surveillance on that earlier date LG was at MHB as well; however, I only remember LE requests for photographs or videos anyone visiting the trails might have taken on Feb 13. I wonder if that might have been a missed opportunity as it could be that the perpetrator was at the trails both times LG was there.

 

[Tealgrove]

I agree he must have scouted the area but I am not so sure there was a dog walker who actually saw BG, IMO--

I can't remember if this has been stated by LE or not, but I do remember a lot of chatter about that and I remember reading or thinking it was not true.

But that was 5 years ago and I don't remember what I had for dinner last night, so there's that !! LOL


HOWEVER--- He still took a chance on property owners being home, returning home, even if the coast was clear from the others that were already at the trails --
I mean.. RL or other home owners right there where in area girls were found could have come home or walked outside and seen BG and girls.

Unless the homeowners walked to the VERY back of their properties they wouldn’t have seen anything.

The distance from RL’s home to the start of the ravine is substantial.

 

[carbuff]

I agree he must have scouted the area but I am not so sure there was a dog walker who actually saw BG, IMO--

I can't remember if this has been stated by LE or not, but I do remember a lot of chatter about that and I remember reading or thinking it was not true.

But that was 5 years ago and I don't remember what I had for dinner last night, so there's that !! LOL


HOWEVER--- He still took a chance on property owners being home, returning home, even if the coast was clear from the others that were already at the trails --
I mean.. RL or other home owners right there where in area girls were found could have come home or walked outside and seen BG and girls.

BBM

This is one of the factors that has made me think the killer likely has a tie to one of those properties--used to live there, grew up in the area, was friends with someone who lived there, had done outdoor work for one of the owners, etc. He would have known the terrain and it would have been easier for him to check who was around, and it might even have given him a justifiable reason for being there. "Just dropped by to say hi, do you need any more painting done on the barn?" or something along those lines.

 

[Gerrymd8]

BBM

This is one of the factors that has made me think the killer likely has a tie to one of those properties--used to live there, grew up in the area, was friends with someone who lived there, had done outdoor work for one of the owners, etc. He would have known the terrain and it would have been easier for him to check who was around, and it might even have given him a justifiable reason for being there. "Just dropped by to say hi, do you need any more painting done on the barn?" or something along those lines.

This is something I have been thinking about for a while now (and I am sure others are too), but the surrounding neighboring properties. I am assuming that the owners and families have all been vetted and interviewed?

 

[carbuff]

This is something I have been thinking about for a while now (and I am sure others are too), but the surrounding neighboring properties. I am assuming that the owners and families have all been vetted and interviewed?

I imagine the family members were, but it would be hard to be sure you'd found every single acquaintance who hung around with somebody who was a teenager then, or every contractor who had her done work in the area.

 

[MistyWaters]

We’ve no way of knowing if below is true or not, but local teen outdoor hangouts are often located at accessible yet out-of-the-way places and speaking from my own past, abandoned trestles are also a magnet to teens for the sake of the sheer thrill of daring heights. If so the bowl-shape area at the end of the bridge could also be quite well known. Because of the higher elevation and distance that was kitty corner across 40 acres, it was not visible from RL’s house even though it was on his land.

“Dennis Bridge said the local area was a place where 'kids play until sunset and then they come home' and that he believed the Monon High Bridge was a 'hangout'.”
Grandfather of one of murdered Indiana teens speaks out | Daily Mail Online

 

[Cryptic]

This is something I have been thinking about for a while now (and I am sure others are too), but the surrounding neighboring properties. I am assuming that the owners and families have all been vetted and interviewed?

To my knowledge, yes.

And now, a "But".....

The park could well have been used for two generations as an under age drinking spot, teen age hang out zone, make out / make up spot as well as the go to spot for clandestine meetings with the unapproved friends- and the unapproved boyfriend.

Likewise, it could be the "secret" spot for small time pot buys. Then factor in visits by boy scout groups, school groups, county work crews, and perhaps at risk youth types "volunteering" to pick up trash.

In the end, and for better or for worse, one does not need to live in the immediate area to know about secret, but not so secret trails, unofficial entrances, and other cut throughs in and around the Nature Center and surrounding private property.

 

[evilwise]

Reminder that Chadwell is established to have regularly "roughed it" for weeks at a time which is very in line with his stalking and baiting behavior.

I am much more inclined toward the Klines now that it's been established there was contact literally the night before the murders but it's going to need to be established beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't just some opportunistic child predator like Chadwell.

 

[sunshineray]

ive def answered this same argument before
and no.. a witness is someone who had WITNESSED something visually related the crime ..not someone who seen a profile seen by anyone online !!! and why not send that pic instead of going to le and describing a pic online !!!
also you actually mean le cant see that profile for themselves !!! when its public !!?? le would not use a pic online for a criminal sketch.. that doesnt make ANY SENSE..
they KNEW right after the murders that the profile was FAKE and the male model ( who looks nothing like the sketch ) was just a victim of stolen photos ! this is 3 agencies working and it cant get this bad

A witness can be a witness to a multitude of things not only visual. In the OJ case there were people living nearby who heard Nicole Brown's dog wailing. They were used to try and pin down a timeline of the events. A witness can use any of the senses singularly or combined. It means they have information that could help LE 's investigation. IMO

 

[Boxer]

To my knowledge, yes.

And now, a "But".....

The park could well have been used for two generations as an under age drinking spot, teen age hang out zone, make out / make up spot as well as the go to spot for clandestine meetings with the unapproved friends- and the unapproved boyfriend.

Likewise, it could be the "secret" spot for small time pot buys. Then factor in visits by boy scout groups, school groups, county work crews, and perhaps at risk youth types "volunteering" to pick up trash.

In the end, and for better or for worse, one does not need to live in the immediate area to know about secret, but not so secret trails, unofficial entrances, and other cut throughs in and around the Nature Center and surrounding private property.

Delphi High School is 1.5-2 mile walk from campus across a field across I25 then into the woods the south side of Deer Creek to the south side of the MHB. It's apparently been a poplar picnic party spot since even before the RR.

 

[sunshineray]

BBM

This is one of the factors that has made me think the killer likely has a tie to one of those properties--used to live there, grew up in the area, was friends with someone who lived there, had done outdoor work for one of the owners, etc. He would have known the terrain and it would have been easier for him to check who was around, and it might even have given him a justifiable reason for being there. "Just dropped by to say hi, do you need any more painting done on the barn?" or something along those lines.

I found it very interesting that Barbara McDonald asked KAK in that video interview if he or his Dad knew Ron Logan. When KAK said no he'd never even heard his name mentioned, before asking her next questioned BM said, "Interesting."

It seemed to me like she knew something, that she wasn't going into. Like maybe that was a question LE wanted her to ask?

Made me wonder if that's one of the questions KAK was asked in his polygraph. Just some thoughts.

Barbara McDonald interview with KAK on December 9, 2021

On page 11 of the transcript...

(...)

Q. Can I ask you do you know who Ron Logan is?

A. No I don't.

Q. Ron Logan is the property owner where the girl's bodies were found out by the
bridge.

A. Oh okay.

Q. Do you know if your father knows him?

A. I have no clue. I’ve never heard that name before.

Q. Interesting. (...)

tX Vid Interview by Barbara McDo (1).pdf

 

[carbuff]

Wow.

 

[Marzipan]

It's important to not discount the ability of adrenaline and excitement. He didn't need to be fit.

I agree. I know some of those who say BG had to be fit have been to the site themselves so I want to respect that. But I’m pretty sure, actually very sure, that my mom could have done all that hiking up until age 70, even after foot, hip, and knee surgeries. I know this because she’s done it with me and has outlasted me when she wants to see some damn waterfall or something that is “just a little bit further.” I know others too, stubborn folk, whose attitude is, “The only way I’m not doing that is if I’m dead.” Again, if you’ve been there I have to take note of your opinion, but otherwise I can’t look at KAK with lots of concern about him being trail-worthy.

 

[FromGermany1]

LE publicly began searching for a connection to the anthony_shots fake account in December, 2021. The photo of the male model was released then and at that same time they announced the man in the photo was not the murder suspect.

Anthony_Shots: Instagram Page Probed in Delphi Murders | Heavy.com

If we are to believe the sketch is of the photo of the male model and considering it’s not been retracted even yet, we’d also have to believe LE is utterly incompetent considering by now LE has probably gotten 100s of tips suggesting that’s who the sketch possibly represents.

A photo did not commit murder so unless LE tells the public otherwise at this time the 2nd sketch of the suspect that was released is still what they’re sticking with. Who are we to know anything different?

I think, you are right: Sketch #2= YoungBG is NOT the male model and not based on his photo. Sketch #2= YoungBG is a different person and maybe LE know him since 2019, but are missing the last piece of the puzzle.

I wanted to clarify again, because I feel like I've been misunderstood.

 

[Charlot123]

I think that's very true. If the person who "saw something they thought needed reporting" was basing the sketch off the profile pic, LE could have shown the profile pic to this person and asked if that's the same man they saw (the model). And if the model was a suspect, or LE wanted tips from people who saw the online profile, they wouldn't need the sketch, they'd use a profile pic.

In fact, the model's profile pic is included in the a_shots ask, so it wouldn't really benefit LE to use a sketch of the same person to generate tips. IMO. Add to that LE stating the model isn't a suspect, as @MistyWaters posted above, and it really kind of takes that theory off the table for me. Of course, who knows...

Now, everything has messed up so much, I don’t even know who the BG is, and whether he is related to the case. However, about the model… he makes live streams and motivational videos. His voice is very different from what is on Libby’s phone.

 

[sandy_80]

A witness can be a witness to a multitude of things not only visual. In the OJ case there were people living nearby who heard Nicole Brown's dog wailing. They were used to try and pin down a timeline of the events. A witness can use any of the senses singularly or combined. It means they have information that could help LE 's investigation. IMO

bring me an online witness and ill consider it.. otherwise ill not believe it possible
this information le didnt need.. they saw it for themselves when they inspected the accounts..the logic doesnt work here
( le is capable of knowing instantly that the profile pic was fake and they raided the kak house instantly after the murders ! so why are you saying they considered the young model a suspect which is def not true !!)
.................................
I really think the far fetched theories only comes from how badly this case had been handled and especially badly presented to the public
le said that they first though the first sketch with someone in their 40s represented BG .. then as the investigation matured and they changed direction with the new sketch .. a younger murderer saying its def the face of the male we see in the video ( which a lot of us can not see )
that was 3 years ago...eventually all of this changed again..when they said the older sketch is still valid but secondary or that bg is a combination of two sketches ... even in 2019 they said its def two suspects
the verdict
how likely is that they know anything for certain

Delphi murders: New suspect sketch not same man as in old sketch, ISP clarifies

 

[Silver_produce0]

@sunshineray I interpret that “interesting” to mean Barbara knows there is some connection between RL and the Klines. But I’m also letting my imagination run wild here. It’s kind of a strange response otherwise.

Maybe Logan and Kline were in AA or group counseling together or something like that.

 

[Silver_produce0]

@sandy_80 the cryptic and IMO contradictory comments made by LE are concerning and confusing. When I started reading about this case in early 2020 there was so much content to go through between this site, Reddit and news articles (and YouTube!).

After the YGS was released the police have said the old guy is not a POI and that they’re two different people, that they’re not saying the old guy wasn’t involved, and that the real perpetrator could look like a combination of the two. So I’m like… do you actually know who OGS is or not? It doesn’t make sense to me at all. There was no reason to muddy the waters on this but they’ve done it. But why? We don’t know if TL and DC are just bad at this part of their jobs or if this reflects true confusion/lack or organization/lack of direction on the part of those actually doing the investigating. So so weird.

*edited because I hit post too soon*

 

[sunshineray]

bring me an online witness and ill consider it.. otherwise ill not believe it possible
this information le didnt need.. they saw it for themselves when they inspected the accounts..the logic doesnt work here
( le is capable of knowing instantly that the profile pic was fake and they raided the kak house instantly after the murders ! so why are you saying they considered the young model a suspect which is def not true !!)
.................................
I really think the far fetched theories only comes from how badly this case had been handled and especially badly presented to the public
le said that they first though the first sketch with someone in their 40s represented BG .. then as the investigation matured and they changed direction with the new sketch .. a younger murderer saying its def the face of the male we see in the video ( which a lot of us can not see )
that was 3 years ago...eventually all of this changed again..when they said the older sketch is still valid but secondary or that bg is a combination of two sketches ... even in 2019 they said its def two suspects
the verdict
how likely is that they know anything for certain

Delphi murders: New suspect sketch not same man as in old sketch, ISP clarifies

I was replying to your statement that a witness needs to be a visual witness.