Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #145

[Always Stay Hopeful]

I feel so bad for Kelsi...may she heal and get some closure that will help her move forwards.

Sister of Delphi murder victim heartbroken over secret online chats

THE HEARTBROKEN sister of Delphi “Snapchat murders” victim Libby German says she writes angry letters to her late sibling for hiding online chats she had with an alleged pedophile’s social media ac…

www.the-sun.com

I understand that Kelsi is upset, but honestly, Libby didn't do anything worse than most of us did as teenagers. Times are different now, and social media can be very dangerous. I think about things I did as a teenager though, and as an adult, I see how dangerous and stupid my actions were. I was lucky nothing ever happened to me. I accepted rides home from grown men I didn't know a couple of times (walking down the street, when they would see me and offer), I would hang out with a guy who was much older if I knew I could get alcohol from him, I had some inappropriate conversations online with people who I'm pretty sure were adults. It happens. Teenagers do some very unintelligent things sometimes. We've all made mistakes. The only difference with Libby's is that it could have been one that cost her life. That still wasn't her fault it it was though. No, she shouldn't have been talking to KK in the first place, but he shouldn't have been preying on young girls. He was the one in the wrong.

 

[Jay78]

As someone else wrote previously, with LE "tripping" on this case, I believe in my heart that this case will NOT be solved until something changes (new eyes, investigators discovered an overlooked item/piece of evidence, someone talks etc).

Just think--it's now been 5 years and 3 months... one thousand nine hundred and ten days they have had to put this all together and have been unable to do so. I truly, really, absolutely hope I am wrong, but I see this case somewhat like the Amy Mihaljavek case--seems solvable and should have likely been cracked, but wasn't.

Literally makes me want to cry... but I believe that most of us will be here in 2027, wondering how 10 years have passed without justice. If memory serves, even Robert Ives said that this case would be extremely difficult to solve... and I think mistakes were made--many of which we don't even know about yet.

Carter keeps speaking with confidence and sounding like they are so close--but you have to wonder when the family will lose faith in him.. 7 years later? 10?

This is one of the most difficult cases I've ever followed and I'm sure it is the same for you--let's just offer our prayers and thoughts to the family. For most of us, this is a puzzle to solve, a riddle to unwrap--but for the families, this is their tragedy, and to their horror, the person who did it lives as a free man/men.

...but maybe it's just time for me to take a break from Delphi, as it has worn me out. How confident do others feel regarding an arrest at this stage?

 

[sandy_80]

I don't have the source link now for an early-on report about the phone: I recall that the closest local television station did a story about phone being found in the water. It was transported to special technicians to restore data. I.E., sent away from Delphi. I watched video of that news report, so hoping someone here remembers, though five years after the fact. I'm certain now.

idk know about that...I know it was found in the vicinity of the bodies or somthing like that
i cant find that link but this is an early one
Sgt. Holeman tells us investigators recovered more audio from Libby’s phone, which was found with the girls at the crime scene.
ISP: More audio recovered from slain Delphi teen's phone

 

[MichMan015]

The time line with the Klines is what I don’t understand.So they uncover some leads with the search of the Kline home but after all this time they let them go about their business everyday. Now LE allude to a huge child *advertiser censored* ring but don’t arrest until Dec 2021. The father should be doing a lot of explaining to LE and it seems everyone is quiet, birds tweeting.
very confusing for sure!!!

 

[Tealgrove]

The time line with the Klines is what I don’t understand.So they uncover some leads with the search of the Kline home but after all this time they let them go about their business everyday. Now LE allude to a huge child *advertiser censored* ring but don’t arrest until Dec 2021. The father should be doing a lot of explaining to LE and it seems everyone is quiet, birds tweeting.
very confusing for sure!!!

We actually don’t know what LE is, or is not, doing and we never have.

TK may have refused to talk to LE, which is his Right, or he has sat down with LE. Again we don’t know.

Maybe LE is picking away at that child *advertiser censored* ring. Maybe they aren’t.



TBH, they haven’t told us much at all. We only know about KAK because a transcript got leaked (apparently).

I believe it will be solved but I’m past the point of being giddy and thinking something is going to happen any time soon.

MOO

 

[minazoe]

what is the take on the phone forensics after a factory re-set. is it still possible to retrieve the contents somewhere?
I thought it was possible..it really drives me crazy how KAK was allowed to wipe this phone...and was allowed to lie about it's whereabouts..they should have torn that house apart. mOO

 

[MichMan015]

Agree we really don’t know what LE is up to. I too have gone back and listened to police press announcements and guessed at the double meaning.
But just looking at facts they (LE) seem to move awfully slow. Five years after the house raid they decide to charge, in what is caught as child *advertiser censored* and somewhere in the midst is a murderer.
Michman015

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Before the information about the anthony_shots profile and about KAK came out this was a very frustrating and confounding case. When that shocking info did come out it opened some new paths and seem to clear up some things. For me anyway, I thought…now we’re getting somewhere.
Now, five months later, everything seems to have ground to a halt again.
LE obviously thinks this internet profile is linked to the Delphi murders, the Delphi Task Force is who requested information on it, but there is absolutely no indication from LE or the HLN transcript with KAK or the police transcript with KAK that ties it to the murder. Yes, Libby communicated with the profile etc but where is the connection to the murders? LE said a_shots was the last person to talk to Libby. Well when was that? What did he say? There’s a big difference between “how’s your day” and “I’ll see you at the bridge at 2pm”.
I am struggling with that connection. KAK certainly has a lot of sketchy behavior to explain…erasing his phone, searching obsessively about the murders etc.
I think there has to be a real physical link between KAK and the crime scene(not that he is the actual killer) for this to work. Between KAK’s devices and, for instance, a pinging cell phone or something.
My concern is that LE doesn’t have that link right now. My fear is that there is no link and that LE has no idea, after five years, where to go with this case. That they jumped onto this path out of desperation and it’s not panning out.
I hope I am way wrong here.

 

[Facinatingtimes]

I was listening to Dateline today on a different case (The Undoing) and the detective was talking about how from the beginning of an investigation, he has to think about prosecution, trial, appeals, etc, 5/10/15 years down the road. In other words, dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s. I’m holding out hope that is what LE is doing, and that the risk of leaving the perpetrators free now is worth the solid case(s) they will ultimately bring. Of course, LE mistakes or missteps could be part of this longer than desired timeline we are experiencing, which stinks.

 

[JnRyan]

Before the information about the anthony_shots profile and about KAK came out this was a very frustrating and confounding case. When that shocking info did come out it opened some new paths and seem to clear up some things. For me anyway, I thought…now we’re getting somewhere.
Now, five months later, everything seems to have ground to a halt again.
LE obviously thinks this internet profile is linked to the Delphi murders, the Delphi Task Force is who requested information on it, but there is absolutely no indication from LE or the HLN transcript with KAK or the police transcript with KAK that ties it to the murder. Yes, Libby communicated with the profile etc but where is the connection to the murders? LE said a_shots was the last person to talk to Libby. Well when was that? What did he say? There’s a big difference between “how’s your day” and “I’ll see you at the bridge at 2pm”.
I am struggling with that connection. KAK certainly has a lot of sketchy behavior to explain…erasing his phone, searching obsessively about the murders etc.
I think there has to be a real physical link between KAK and the crime scene(not that he is the actual killer) for this to work. Between KAK’s devices and, for instance, a pinging cell phone or something.
My concern is that LE doesn’t have that link right now. My fear is that there is no link and that LE has no idea, after five years, where to go with this case. That they jumped onto this path out of desperation and it’s not panning out.
I hope I am way wrong here.

I'm starting to believe this whole KAK thing is going down the same path as previous other persons brought up. If LE knows there was a communication between KAK and Liberty sometime before but LE can't, for one reason or another, determine what was said it may not be of much use. As you stated WHAT is said is important and not merely just an electronic connection.

I am hoping the newly elected sheriff, Tony Liggett, might have a different approach when he takes office. However, as a detective in the department he might currently be directly involved in the investigation now. (I know from at least one article he was involved in the early stages.) Though if he is directly involved now the investigation dynamics and approach may be no different.

 

[orchidaceaes]

I thought this article from earlier today was interesting: ‘Police have said there was DNA’: New interview sheds further light on the Delphi murders

“Police have said there was DNA,” Patty told Ingle in their interview. “They have made the comment that there was DNA.”\

I haven't heard much that's really concrete about DNA evidence in this case so I thought I would share the quote, sorry if it's old news.

 

[abams]

I thought this article from earlier today was interesting: ‘Police have said there was DNA’: New interview sheds further light on the Delphi murders

“Police have said there was DNA,” Patty told Ingle in their interview. “They have made the comment that there was DNA.”\

I haven't heard much that's really concrete about DNA evidence in this case so I thought I would share the quote, sorry if it's old news.

IIRC, LE obtaining DNA evidence was news early on. I vaguely remember stories about locals being swabbed, as well - could be wrong though. I keep coming back to that stuff when I wonder about this new direction of investigation. Surely suspects could be ruled out by DNA and no more time and effort spent on them?

 

[Spartygirl]

Has been in jail and IS in jail.

and looks like Sketch 2, IMO

 

[JnRyan]

In the interview last year by HLN with Sheriff Leazenby, he stated they have DNA, they just don't know if they have the killer's DNA. So now if LE have a POI and their DNA doesn't match it doesn't necessarily rule them out as the killer may have not left DNA. Certainly, if a POI's DNA does match there is cause to dig further, but it really isn't conclusive if that person is the killer just by a DNA match alone. I still wonder why LE hasn't tried to do a genealogy search. At least LE would have some idea of who they might be looking for or if their DNA profile is valid. I'm wondering if the DNA is of good enough quality - i.e., not a partial - to do a search. In 2018, LE found the killer of 8 yo April Tinsley and that was an IN case. When Delphi investigators have been questioned by the media if they might follow the lead of the April Tinsley case they've been very vague in their answers.

 

[Spartygirl]

The messages were apparently inappropriate and got dumped, but Sandy, I still want to thank you for the heads-up about You-Know-Who-O. I honestly thought the dog-walking lady was officially known information; I had no idea it was just a very poorly sourced rumor.

This is not going to help my theory that BG lurked at the south end for as much as a couple of hours, before going north across the bridge to the trail system, making sure the south end at the creek was empty. It doesn't actually rule it out, I think, but it does remove what I had thought was a supporting detail. Thanks!

Oh good...we got to the bottom of that.
I knew I dismissed it early on as rumor but due to TOS here I can't share a news link so I am glad we can put that to rest now.
JMO

 

[Spartygirl]

Ever since the a_shots release, I have had to rethink everything I'd concluded up to that point, including theories I had dismissed (catfishing, SM, father/son, LE knowing who the suspect is, etc.), which I'd dismissed in part because of things LE said.

The two sketches were confusing, the statements DC made about the sketches were confusing, the entire April 2019 PC was confusing. And so few details were released, much to the public's dismay, all in the name of "protecting the integrity of the case."

Now I sort of wonder if it wasn't just the double-murder case LE was protecting, but also the CSAM case. Maybe the FBI stated the Peru house residents were not involved in the murders for one reason...to keep the CSAM stuff under wraps. Maybe LE and RI said there was no SM link because they didn't want anyone to know that the biggest CSAM investigation in state history was going on simultaneously, and possibly connected to the murders. Maybe LE couldn't come out asking for specific a_shots tips while the CSAM case was fresh.

Pre-2019, LE had two sketches, one of which was a composite made by multiple people who LE felt had seen the same man on the trails that day. Sketch one, older man. They also already had sketch two, younger man, in their possession, but early on, perhaps they didn't yet know of any connections between these two men. During their two years investigating, they found the a_shots communications with L, they sifted through almost three years of underage messaging and images, tracked down IP addresses, Vegas communications, and put together a picture of CSAM and grooming, including of L. But LE's evidence is digital, like devices and wifi, which leads to a home shared by two individuals. Analysts say the communications appear to be from two different users. Two people had regular access to the same devices over the course of years. The same two people had access to the devices in Vegas. Maybe by April 2019, the younger sketch had more significance than before, and served to connect the double-murders and CSAM cases together, although not publicly. First sketch became secondary, not disregarded entirely. Were these two men connected? Where did LE want to put the most pressure?

Suddenly, and maybe incorrectly, I feel like all the confusion is starting to make sense. Two sketches, a combination of two sketches, two men seen by witnesses, two men with access to the same devices, two men going to Vegas and planning a trip to the Bunny Ranch (and other prostitution) together, two authors (users), two creators of the a_shots account (as suggested by LE in the 2020 interview), emilyanne talking about being with two men at the same time, "my daddy" stuff, two men with Monday afternoons off, two men lying for each other...

You sound like me !!!

I have had to re-think everything I thought previously and believe me, I have had a few theories and different POIs

Now with the A_shots and online catfishing, my confusion on the 2019 is making sense.

I remember Kelsi and Anna saying that after the presser-- it makes sense once the family was informed just prior to the presser.

But in my head....it never made sense. JMO

 

[IceIce9]

Interesting interview with Becky Patty.

The creator of the anthony_shots account is in jail, awaiting to go on trial for child *advertiser censored*. I know for a fact that this anthony_shots account did have contact with Libby. I feel that he knows more than he says,” Patty told Ingle in their interview.

‘Police have said there was DNA': New interview sheds further light on the Delphi murders

 

[Charlot123]

My new idea. What if LE knows who it was, but the way they got information was accidental and not anything that can be even mentioned in court, much less stand there. There are many ways of data mining, after all, some are legal, some not, and some are simply hush-hush. I wonder if after they got this information, they, indeed, sent the suspect’s DNA to compare with whatever scanty amount they got from the CS, and it matched…but like a 111-marker Y would match a 12-marker one. (A non-match does rule the person out, but a match can indicate a whole group). I also think it happened somewhere in the end of 2018, so between the time they got their info and the time of the PC in April of 2019, they, indeed, hoped to get something tangible by putting a pressure on someone (a partner?), but it didn’t pan out. So in April, LE came out with all their “homework”, such as “the right sketch”, etc., but nothing to show and no name to spell out. Furthermore, I suspect the person is an upstanding citizen, so there is no way they can imprison him for something unrelated. Maybe they hoped he’d pop up in the CSAM group, but he did not. So there is a stalemate, and hence RI said “if he does something else again”. He probably has somehow suffered, didn’t get a promotion, life put on hold, but he had not been brought to justice. And they know what tip they are waiting for, but no one has called. JMO.

 

[FromGermany1]

My new idea. What if LE knows who it was, but the way they got information was accidental and not anything that can be even mentioned in court, much less stand there. There are many ways of data mining, after all, some are legal, some not, and some are simply hush-hush. I wonder if after they got this information, they, indeed, sent the suspect’s DNA to compare with whatever scanty amount they got from the CS, and it matched…but like a 111-marker Y would match a 12-marker one. (A non-match does rule the person out, but a match can indicate a whole group). I also think it happened somewhere in the end of 2018, so between the time they got their info and the time of the PC in April of 2019, they, indeed, hoped to get something tangible by putting a pressure on someone (a partner?), but it didn’t pan out. So in April, LE came out with all their “homework”, such as “the right sketch”, etc., but nothing to show and no name to spell out. Furthermore, I suspect the person is an upstanding citizen, so there is no way they can imprison him for something unrelated. Maybe they hoped he’d pop up in the CSAM group, but he did not. So there is a stalemate, and hence RI said “if he does something else again”. He probably has somehow suffered, didn’t get a promotion, life put on hold, but he had not been brought to justice. And they know what tip they are waiting for, but no one has called. JMO.

One problem is: IF it is an upstanding citizen, nobody in his right mind can dare to name him, not on WS, not on Redd*t, not on Fb, nowhere. This citizen has all the options, another person has not. If the person is rightout wealthy and is able to hire the best lawyers from the whole USA, you know: it's nearly impossible to do anything. You can only wait, if LE/FBI will be on the person's track one day and if they will manage the problem with this powerful suspect, who will also have many supporters (incl. other upstanding citizens) fighting for this person (media uproar?).
Yes, you can call in a tip anonymously, but you have to know, the person was at the MHB area at the certain time of murder on Febr 13th, 2017. Otherwise your tip will be as good as never existed, I'm very sure. MOO

 

[Charlot123]

One problem is: IF it is an upstanding citizen, nobody in his right mind can dare to name him, not on WS, not on Redd*t, not on Fb, nowhere. This citizen has all the options, another person has not. If the person is rightout wealthy and is able to hire the best lawyers from the whole USA, you know: it's nearly impossible to do anything. You can only wait, if LE/FBI will be on the person's track one day and if they will manage the problem with this powerful suspect, who will also have many supporters (incl. other upstanding citizens) fighting for this person (media uproar?).
Yes, you can call in a tip anonymously, but you have to know, the person was at the MHB area at the certain time of murder on Febr 13th, 2017. Otherwise your tip will be as good as never existed, I'm very sure. MOO

There are different levels of upstanding citizens. My definition, related to this case: doesn't carry drug paraphernalia, is not driving on probation, not a child molester, cooking meth is not favorite pastime. No reason to put in jail. This person might have been named, and likely, was, but dropped from discussions rather fast.

Now, there also might be a very different level of upstanding, and in such a case, you are right (see another popular thread), with money, he might as well be caught at the CS, a good lawyer will easily prove that it was mass hypnosis.