Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #147

[TL4S]

The episode was definitely worth listening to.

The part I found most interesting is that just a few weeks ago (July 20th of this year), according to the podcast's sources, Doug Carter stopped in Peru, IN and met with the Miami Co prosecutor and reviewed an "hours-long" presentation focused on the Klines and their possible involvement in the Delphi case. The Miami Co prosecutor is handling the 30 CSAM and obstruction charges that KAK is facing.

The podcasters say that a well-connected source in LE told them that one of the topics discussed was DC's view that it is crucial that the KAK case go to trial and not be pled out. DC even offered to connect Miami Co with a prosecutor from another county in order to provide more legal manpower.

They also briefly touched on KAK's trial continuance. While admitting that just because their sources haven't heard about something, doesn't mean it isn't happening, they cast doubt on the idea that KAK is using the continuance to make a deal. They have heard that a few of his charges may fall away before trial. But the winnowing of charges is common in cases like this. So if this happens, it’s not an indication of the overall health of the case against him or dealmaking for Delphi. Their sources say KAK may be on the lookout for a new attorney. Fun fact: KAK's current attorney also represented RL at one time.

The idea that investigators may have been misled by the Klines changing dates on their FB posts, to make it appear that they were in Vegas at the time of the murders when they were actually in Indiana, beggars belief (especially since they must have known about the anthony shots account at that time), but I suppose stranger things have happened. I found their discussion of how this fits into the "new direction" press conference and the way things were handled after 2019 compelling.

I agree with others who've expressed the thought that LE looked over KAK's possible involvement because they were focused on other persons of interest. Perhaps some investigators lobbied for RL, perhaps some were in favor of other sexually violent felons like JDD (you can look back at threads #1-2 for info on him).

If the prosecutor met with DC to discuss the K's possible involvement with Delphi, then they discussed not letting KAK plea out of his CSAM case, that sounds a lot like KAK knows something about Delphi, doesn't it?

 

[Ravenmoon]

If the prosecutor met with DC to discuss the K's involvement with Delphi, then they discussed not letting KAK plea out of his CSAM case, that sounds a lot like KAK knows something about Delphi, doesn't it?

Indeed it does.
JMO- KAK is neck deep in the Delphi murders.
He is not what I would have imagined initially.
My mind painted a picture of a person that was quick on his feet, quick in explaining things, fit, and knowing that area much much better than what KAK likely did.
At this point- believing KAK had no involvement is bordering "crazy."
I won't be surprised to find out that he was a physical part of the crime and not just a sideliner.
Just waiting for charges to be filed .

JMO

 

[IQuestion]

JMO:

They could not have checked with hotels, etc.
If they had- they would have known that the K's were not in Las Vegas at the time of the murders. KAK has admitted to this himself.
I feel that they REALLY had their sights on a certain person (NOT RL) and they believed that the K's were more or less cleared of being suspects at the time.
The individual that I believe they were looking at was arrested a few weeks before the 2019 presser.
Once he was in custody, HE was cleared and they knew that they dropped the ball early on.

MOO

YES THE BALL WAS DROPPED....many times. From the first contact with A_S ( millionaire hottie with Lamborghini or Linguine...doesn't matter. Not age appropriate for a 14 year old. Geeesh!!) And the delegation of interviews was a major cluster bomb from the start. Ever heard of "trust but verify?" No matter what KAK said, his alibis, lack of criminal history, portly appearance, age, his wantonly seamless lies should have been investigated more closely. If for no other reason than KAK was also too old to be in contact with 13/14 year old girls!
Hate to break this bit of info....but criminals lie.
Pg 63 of transcript said it all:
V: Listen to me. I'm going off a device that has no reason to lie to me. Okay. It goes into your phone-
KAK: You're talking to someone that has no reason to lie to you.
V: Kegan you lied to the investigators three years ago, you're lying
KAK: Okay well then why did they, who would it take three years for them to come and get me what do you mean

 

[Marzipan]

Murder Sheet

The Murder Sheet is a weekly true crime podcast hosted by journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee. We take a journalistic approach to covefing true crime. We have broken national news on major cases, like the Delphi murders and the Burger Chef murders. We also cover plenty of other...

art19.com

This week’s Murder Sheet podcast:

—LE pivoted away from the Klines in 2017 after the raid on their house because LE took the Klines word that they were in Las Vegas at the time of the murders.They never checked their alibi basically and were, unlike folks on WS, etc didn’t know how to check for altered dates on FB.
—LE’s discovery two years later of this led to the 2019 press conference.
(none of this really explains why it was another year+ before KAK was arrested on CSAM and another year before the a_shots profile was revealed)
—absolutely no information indicating KAK is trying to get a plea deal with Delphi info.
—ISP Carter is adamant that KAK go to trial and no deals be cut with him. Nobody knows why.
This is not just a mistake, this is incompetence. Fire them all.

None of it explains the second suspect sketch(first but not shown first) either. Still have no idea if it’s LE’s own sketch of KAK’s “synthetic identity,” or a known or unknown suspect. The sketch looks like former POIs of mine and everyone’s, but with the Klines so firmly in focus, is that sketch even worth anything now? Doesn’t look anything like them. The confusion for me is that they showed it in 2019 when they said they were onto something earlier, which we are now pretty sure is the Klines.

 

[Marzipan]

To be honest I do think YGS looks like TK. Strange as it sounds I do see it…

Ah I see you were all already discussing this. Interesting that you can see TK in that sketch. We all perceive differently, I guess. Maybe I’ll eventually see it too.

 

[acutename]

Could be. With a fake persona, just sick and manipulative.

It's like KAK existed in this weird fantasy world of his own making, prior to being picked up.

JMO

the problem for me in this is, it is one thing to manipulate kids, to get pictures from them, to pretend to be someone with a fancy sports car, to play mind games- and it is something else to murder people. was that just the ultimate power trip? it seems like a big disconnect. did A and L have evidence? was there a Slender Man- type dare? Just seems like something is missing, IMO.

 

[FromGermany1]

Yes, I do think it looks like a combination of a younger Tony and KAK. But I just think that is because of all the stuff they missed in 2017 when following up on their alibi. I don't think the drawing is actually the bridge guy.

If someone thinks, YBG looks like KAK, then the person should think about the voice too. Is the voice (guys - down the hill) KAK's voice indeed?

 

[Awsi Dooger]

If the prosecutor met with DC to discuss the K's possible involvement with Delphi, then they discussed not letting KAK plea out of his CSAM case, that sounds a lot like KAK knows something about Delphi, doesn't it?

That's not the way I interpret it. I haven't been following this case in recent months but in sampling the past few pages it sounds like Doug Carter is well aware of situational influence and how it plays out in regard to Delphi. The last thing he wants is for Kegan Kline to skate out of the current charges via quiet quick plea deal, no matter what that plea deal would be. Carter understands the immense value of every sickening detail and atrocity funneling day after day through that courtroom and therefore into the media, which means it also attaches to public mindset and any upcoming jury pool. Heck, it attaches to any judge who will try a subsequent case and therefore what rulings he will make.

Behold the scoundrel. Obviously if he did all that he's guilty of anything else we can circumstantially link him too. Family members as well. Disregard the sketches and the video and that silly height/weight estimate. How many coincidences do you want to believe?

BTW, this is the best we can do. We've got podcasters going along with it. All the other 99% types have dried up. You won't get another chance. Let me down here and I'm another Marcia Clark.

It doesn't require hour after hour listening to a third-party presentation in a different county, if you've got the guys and the goods. Five years later and that's what Carter is doing. He's desperate to close the case so any propagandized shove is welcome.

The first Kline jury provides the demon tag and the jump start.

 

[lonewanderer]

I was listening to a true crime podcast, and there was one case that was so incredibly similar to me.

However, the killer was identified and sentenced in 2010:

Top stories of the decade: 2010 — Jerry Hobbs freed from jail after being wrongfully accused of daughter’s murder

The first year of a new decade in Lake County found its top news story looking back to the dark Mother’s Day of 2005, when two girls were found stabbed to death in Zion — and the father…

www.chicagotribune.com

Its mighty eerie if you read it all. Basically, two young girls were reported missing near a popular hiking trail in the area, most of the town went to look for them, two of their relatives stumbled across their bodies in the woods near a ravine.

This article focuses a lot more on the coerced interogattion by the innocent father, but listening to a true crime story about it send chills down my spine.

 

[Megnut]

Let me ask this. If the intention that day was to abduct the girls to take them to the always ill-fated second location, where was that location? Two girls, two perps, one location? An abductor and a driver? A father, son? A lair? A bunker? A trailer? A home?

If there was indeed a bloodbath, perhaps it's because the murders were rageful and chaotic -- sponyaneous and reactive. Unplanned. Because that plan, for that part, was abduction.

If the plan was to abduct them thst day, there was IMO a second location prepared.

Where?

The whole focus seems to be on the area where the girls were found.

I think we should be thinking about where someone intended to take them.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

That's not the way I interpret it. I haven't been following this case in recent months but in sampling the past few pages it sounds like Doug Carter is well aware of situational influence and how it plays out in regard to Delphi. The last thing he wants is for Kegan Kline to skate out of the current charges via quiet quick plea deal, no matter what that plea deal would be. Carter understands the immense value of every sickening detail and atrocity funneling day after day through that courtroom and therefore into the media, which means it also attaches to public mindset and any upcoming jury pool. Heck, it attaches to any judge who will try a subsequent case and therefore what rulings he will make.

Behold the scoundrel. Obviously if he did all that he's guilty of anything else we can circumstantially link him too. Family members as well. Disregard the sketches and the video and that silly height/weight estimate. How many coincidences do you want to believe?

BTW, this is the best we can do. We've got podcasters going along with it. All the other 99% types have dried up. You won't get another chance. Let me down here and I'm another Marcia Clark.

It doesn't require hour after hour listening to a third-party presentation in a different county, if you've got the guys and the goods. Five years later and that's what Carter is doing. He's desperate to close the case so any propagandized shove is welcome.

The first Kline jury provides the demon tag and the jump start.

In my mind, if the ISP put out the a_shots ask in Dec. 2021, as well as the later Yubo update, and the ISP requested tips to the A & L tip line, then the ISP must feel like a_shots is linked in some way to A & L. If the a_shots ask was wholly unrelated to Delphi, but the ISP had tips go into the A & L tip line, wouldn't that send the wrong impression and possibly taint a jury pool who would see it as the two cases connected?

DC would likely have had a say in that a_shots ask going out, as well, imo. I'm very much connecting dots that I'm only imagining are there, however, so maybe the best way to get from point A to point B is not a straight line in this case. IDK.

If KAK was nothing more than a conduit between L and the killer, I still think he holds some responsibility for the murders by the catfishing he was clearly participating in with L through a_shots, even if all he did was set up the account and sell information.

I'm personally glad DC doesn't want KAK to plea out of his CSAM case, too, because a lot of that activity is entirely separate from the murders, and should be answered for separately. IMO.

 

[Gerrymd8]

If someone thinks, YBG looks like KAK, then the person should think about the voice too. Is the voice (guys - down the hill) KAK's voice indeed?

Actually I don't think the drawing is BG. I do think the drawing is a cross between Tony and KAK.
I would never claim to know who made the statement “down the hill” and “guys” because they are so short and altered.

 

[Yemelyan]

I was listening to a true crime podcast, and there was one case that was so incredibly similar to me.

However, the killer was identified and sentenced in 2010:

Top stories of the decade: 2010 — Jerry Hobbs freed from jail after being wrongfully accused of daughter’s murder

The first year of a new decade in Lake County found its top news story looking back to the dark Mother’s Day of 2005, when two girls were found stabbed to death in Zion — and the father…

www.chicagotribune.com

Its mighty eerie if you read it all. Basically, two young girls were reported missing near a popular hiking trail in the area, most of the town went to look for them, two of their relatives stumbled across their bodies in the woods near a ravine.

This article focuses a lot more on the coerced interogattion by the innocent father, but listening to a true crime story about it send chills down my spine.

Though, as you noted, there is no possibility that the case is connected to Delphi, I guarantee you that - as it is a solved abduction and murder of two juveniles at the same time - the investigators in the Delphi case carefully studied this one.

So let's break it down and study it too. There are some points to make note of, as they could pertain to Delphi:

1. This was the offender's first (known) murder and yet he selected two victims at one time. This goes against the argument that Abby and Libby's killer MUST have been experienced because he was bold enough to do the same. In fact, this offender never targeted two victims at the same time again....perhaps indicating that he learned from his experience that controlling two victims, even young ones, is not as easy as he thought.

2. This offender was just 16 when he abducted and killed two young girls. This shows that young offenders cannot be ruled out due to the seriousness of a crime like this one and Delphi.

3. This offender chose his victims randomly and opportunistically (as in, he did not know that these particular girls would be out playing alone that day or where he would encounter them) and yet he also was somewhat familiar with them as he was known to the half-brother of one of the girls.

4. This offender went on to target several adult victims after sexually assaulting and killing two children. Therefore, in the Delphi case it might not be wise to focus strictly on persons of interest who have crimes against children. It is worth thinking about the possibility that this type of offender is not acting on pedophilic impulses alone but would target any vulnerable female in an opportunistic fashion.

5. This was a sexually-motivated crime but investigators originally completely missed the fact that semen was present because it was not a typical "rape." Not saying that Delphi investigators would also have missed something like this, but this is one of those crimes where a typical sexual assault did not take place and yet a sexual act occurred. This is for all the people saying "BG would not have had time to...." or "Why would you cross a creek and then...."

6. This offender made the classic move of guilty people after the double murders - he got out of town. In this case, he actually joined the military. It makes you wonder what the Delphi murderer might have done.

7. This offender's next murder was as completely unlike the first as you can imagine (other than also being sexually-motivated). It was someone he knew well, she was strangled instead of stabbed, the attack took place in a residence instead of out in the open at a park, it was perpetrated on one adult instead of two children. So looking for linkages in Delphi with "similar crimes" may not get investigators very far.

8. This offender did a few unique things at the crime scene, one of which was the removal of the victims' eyes. This act was not necessary to kill them; it satisfied part of the offender's fantasy of the crime and brought psychological (probably sexual) satisfaction. IMO it's probably something like this that Ives is talking about when he says there were "signatures" at the Delphi scene. It's going to be an offender behavior, it's not going to be props that were brought in from Goodwill or whatever. But again that's MOO.

9. An innocent person confessed to this crime and went to jail for a long time before being exonerated by DNA. Setting aside the question of why police had to be basically forced to run the DNA through national databases, and why that took so long, it's instructive to learn that even innocent people (in this case, a grieving father) may sometimes be induced to confess to things they didn't do under certain interrogation techniques.

Crime and offender details here: Jorge Avila-Torrez - Wikipedia

 

[TL4S]

Actually I don't think the drawing is BG. I do think the drawing is a cross between Tony and KAK.
I would never claim to know who made the statement “down the hill” and “guys” because they are so short and altered.

DC has said more than once that the killer will probably look like a combination of the two sketches. People have stewed over that comment, calling it confusing and using it as an example of LE's ineptness. IMO, it says that the first sketch is not of somebody who was cleared in 2019, when LE changed directions, and that neither sketch is necessarily an accurate depiction of the killer, in and of itself. A combination could be anything...maybe a younger BG but with facial hair, or an older BG who looks young and clean shaven, or older sketch eyes with younger sketch nose...whatever.

Your suggestion about the sketch being a cross between TK and KAK could be possible, imo. I think the combination comment could suggest related individuals. Maybe.

 

[FrostedGlass]

From the podcast, they are looking at both of the Klines for their involvement in the Delphi murders. I wonder if the KAK daddy knows this.

Are these entries in KAK's case his attempt to contact someone? His dad?

07/16/2021 = First Class Mail Returned
Not Deliverable as Addressed, 07/13/21
Party:Kline, Kegan A.
File Stamp:07/14/2021

08/31/2021 = First Class Mail Returned
Attempted not Known, 08/30/21
Party:Kline, Kegan A.

10/27/2021 = First Class Mail Returned
Not Deliverable as Addressed, 10/22/21
Party:Kline, Kegan A.
File Stamp:10/26/2021

12/03/2021 = First Class Mail Returned
Attaempted not known, 12/01/21
Party:Kline, Kegan A.
File Stamp:12/02/2021

 

[FrostedGlass]

That's not the way I interpret it. I haven't been following this case in recent months but in sampling the past few pages it sounds like Doug Carter is well aware of situational influence and how it plays out in regard to Delphi. The last thing he wants is for Kegan Kline to skate out of the current charges via quiet quick plea deal, no matter what that plea deal would be. Carter understands the immense value of every sickening detail and atrocity funneling day after day through that courtroom and therefore into the media, which means it also attaches to public mindset and any upcoming jury pool. Heck, it attaches to any judge who will try a subsequent case and therefore what rulings he will make.

Behold the scoundrel. Obviously if he did all that he's guilty of anything else we can circumstantially link him too. Family members as well. Disregard the sketches and the video and that silly height/weight estimate. How many coincidences do you want to believe?

BTW, this is the best we can do. We've got podcasters going along with it. All the other 99% types have dried up. You won't get another chance. Let me down here and I'm another Marcia Clark.

It doesn't require hour after hour listening to a third-party presentation in a different county, if you've got the guys and the goods. Five years later and that's what Carter is doing. He's desperate to close the case so any propagandized shove is welcome.

The first Kline jury provides the demon tag and the jump start.

I stopped listening yesterday at the 27mm of the podcast. I really, really didn't like what I was hearing.
I think you hit the nail square on the head.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

That's not the way I interpret it. I haven't been following this case in recent months but in sampling the past few pages it sounds like Doug Carter is well aware of situational influence and how it plays out in regard to Delphi. The last thing he wants is for Kegan Kline to skate out of the current charges via quiet quick plea deal, no matter what that plea deal would be. Carter understands the immense value of every sickening detail and atrocity funneling day after day through that courtroom and therefore into the media, which means it also attaches to public mindset and any upcoming jury pool. Heck, it attaches to any judge who will try a subsequent case and therefore what rulings he will make.

Behold the scoundrel. Obviously if he did all that he's guilty of anything else we can circumstantially link him too. Family members as well. Disregard the sketches and the video and that silly height/weight estimate. How many coincidences do you want to believe?

BTW, this is the best we can do. We've got podcasters going along with it. All the other 99% types have dried up. You won't get another chance. Let me down here and I'm another Marcia Clark.

It doesn't require hour after hour listening to a third-party presentation in a different county, if you've got the guys and the goods. Five years later and that's what Carter is doing. He's desperate to close the case so any propagandized shove is welcome.

The first Kline jury provides the demon tag and the jump start.

If I’m understanding you correctly, Carter wants KAK vilified so completely in the CSAM trial that the jurors in the murder trial will overlook possibly sketchy evidence concerning the murder. Not so sure I’m OK with that.
If LE and prosecutors had evidence to indict someone I have no doubt they would do it, and they haven’t.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Though, as you noted, there is no possibility that the case is connected to Delphi, I guarantee you that - as it is a solved abduction and murder of two juveniles at the same time - the investigators in the Delphi case carefully studied this one.

So let's break it down and study it too. There are some points to make note of, as they could pertain to Delphi:

1. This was the offender's first (known) murder and yet he selected two victims at one time. This goes against the argument that Abby and Libby's killer MUST have been experienced because he was bold enough to do the same. In fact, this offender never targeted two victims at the same time again....perhaps indicating that he learned from his experience that controlling two victims, even young ones, is not as easy as he thought.

2. This offender was just 16 when he abducted and killed two young girls. This shows that young offenders cannot be ruled out due to the seriousness of a crime like this one and Delphi.

3. This offender chose his victims randomly and opportunistically (as in, he did not know that these particular girls would be out playing alone that day or where he would encounter them) and yet he also was somewhat familiar with them as he was known to the half-brother of one of the girls.

4. This offender went on to target several adult victims after sexually assaulting and killing two children. Therefore, in the Delphi case it might not be wise to focus strictly on persons of interest who have crimes against children. It is worth thinking about the possibility that this type of offender is not acting on pedophilic impulses alone but would target any vulnerable female in an opportunistic fashion.

5. This was a sexually-motivated crime but investigators originally completely missed the fact that semen was present because it was not a typical "rape." Not saying that Delphi investigators would also have missed something like this, but this is one of those crimes where a typical sexual assault did not take place and yet a sexual act occurred. This is for all the people saying "BG would not have had time to...." or "Why would you cross a creek and then...."

6. This offender made the classic move of guilty people after the double murders - he got out of town. In this case, he actually joined the military. It makes you wonder what the Delphi murderer might have done.

7. This offender's next murder was as completely unlike the first as you can imagine (other than also being sexually-motivated). It was someone he knew well, she was strangled instead of stabbed, the attack took place in a residence instead of out in the open at a park, it was perpetrated on one adult instead of two children. So looking for linkages in Delphi with "similar crimes" may not get investigators very far.

8. This offender did a few unique things at the crime scene, one of which was the removal of the victims' eyes. This act was not necessary to kill them; it satisfied part of the offender's fantasy of the crime and brought psychological (probably sexual) satisfaction. IMO it's probably something like this that Ives is talking about when he says there were "signatures" at the Delphi scene. It's going to be an offender behavior, it's not going to be props that were brought in from Goodwill or whatever. But again that's MOO.

9. An innocent person confessed to this crime and went to jail for a long time before being exonerated by DNA. Setting aside the question of why police had to be basically forced to run the DNA through national databases, and why that took so long, it's instructive to learn that even innocent people (in this case, a grieving father) may sometimes be induced to confess to things they didn't do under certain interrogation techniques.

Crime and offender details here: Jorge Avila-Torrez - Wikipedia

All very important points.

 

[TL4S]

I might be remembering this incorrectly, but weren't the K's facebook posts about being in Vegas on Feb. 13, 2017 falsely dated, but not actually posted until 2020? That's clearly deceptive, but it wasn't even on there until shortly before KAK was arrested, which sort of disproves the idea that LE was fooled about the K's whereabouts early on because of SM posts. Please correct me if I'm wrong about the dating, though. IIRC, there was also a post by TK back in 2018 about how his son hadn't been home in a year (or something along those lines), but he'd actually been living in Peru. Somebody help set me straight on all this.

I wonder if RL lying about his whereabouts could be a factor in drawing LE's attention away from KAK (if that's truly what happened).

 

[FrostedGlass]

I might be remembering this incorrectly, but weren't the K's facebook posts about being in Vegas on Feb. 13, 2017 falsely dated, but not actually posted until 2020? That's clearly deceptive, but it wasn't even on there until shortly before KAK was arrested, which sort of disproves the idea that LE was fooled about the K's whereabouts early on because of SM posts. Please correct me if I'm wrong about the dating, though. IIRC, there was also a post by TK back in 2018 about how his son hadn't been home in a year (or something along those lines), but he'd actually been living in Peru. Somebody help set me straight on all this.

I wonder if RL lying about his whereabouts could be a factor in drawing LE's attention away from KAK (if that's truly what happened).

Regarding RL, they knew early on where he was. If that distracted them, it was only for a period of less than 2 months.