Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

[FrostedGlass]

And he didn't listen?!?! i'm shocked.

His words: "I was advised by my lawyer to not answer any questions from anyone."

 

[NJLefe]

this is my current assessment

I am positive the witnesses are completely sidelined by now...remember we allegedly have 2 kinds of witnesses for each sketch ..and they couldnt decide which one to trust

i also see them leaning towards ignoring the video and audio evidence ..isnt the gradual erasing of suspects info an indication of that ?
also no DNA ? OE ELSE WE WOULDN'T BE HERE TALKING ABOUT THESE TWO
what is left for this case !
what evidence can we have
MPO

I don’t post much, but do read here often. I have followed this case off and on over the years, but not very closely. Today I was reading up on the river search and possibility of KAK being the murderer. I have often thought that there must have been DNA evidence at the scene and if they had the killer’s DNA then they would know if it was KAK or not. But maybe they do have DNA but can’t definitely rule out KAK or TK. I’m not an expert on DNA, but I can only assume father and son have very similar DNA. And LE can’t say for certain which one it is. They lived together, both had access to the social media account, similar DNA… it would be difficult to charge one I would think. IMO, BG looks more like TK than his son, but you can’t try a case based on a grainy phone pic. All my opinion, and like I said , not a DNA expert, so could be off base with my assumption. Hoping for a break in the case eventually.

 

[TL4S]

I've been looking over the 194 page interview transcripts again, and while I acknowledge that we cannot determine which "facts" LE was possibly lying about, there are some things that KAK says, all on his own, which make me curious.

Throughout the interview, KAK repeatedly states he doesn't remember ever talking to L. But this sounds like an admission:

Pg. 160 Lines 21/22 :

A:...Yeah that is a weird *advertiser censored** coincidence that I happened to talk to her like I get that.
____________________

They say he looked up JB Ramsey and OJ Simpson in Vegas. A little later in the interview, while talking about his failed polygraph:

Pg. 173 Lines 1/4:

Q: But those people who fail for other cases or whatever you're referencing weren't talking to the victim of a crime the day of. Weren't grooming them -
A: OJ Simpson yes he was.
Q: Well you looked that up too -

OJ failed his polygraph (the Ramseys passed theirs, but with speculation on the condition of the testing itself). KAK was looking up these cases before he, himself, was polygraphed. For him to bring it up right then in the interview made me wonder if, while in Vegas, following the case, he was thinking how he could explain a failed polygraph test should he be given one. It wasn't until after his polygraph and DNA testing that he looked up how long DNA lasts.

I'm not really getting at anything...just curious.

ETA: Another interesting part. He claims to not remember talking to L, or the a_shots conversation about "OMG, what happened. I was supposed to meet that girl but she never showed..." Then they start talking about his Vegas searches, about IP addresses and servers. KAK says:

Pg 188 Lines 16/18:

A: I was obviously like well I talked to her friend and stuff so. They obviously could see that I talked to her friend on Snapchat, that's probably why I searched that. 'Cause I was probably like oh *advertiser censored** I talked to that person's friend.

Okay, but if he hadn't ever talked to L or he hadn't had the a_shots conversation about meeting her, how would he know, while he was in Vegas, that one of the girls he had talked to was friends with L? He'd have no reason for that thought to cross his mind unless he knew about L and who her friends were. JMO

Just like he claims to be using the Samsung on 2/13/17 to log in and out of a_shots, along with another phone, but also claims not to even have that Samsung until 2/23/17 (ten days later). He seems to put his cart before his horse with sequence of events.

 

[IQuestion]

My observations and we all have them. The MS podcasts choose to emphasize a certain individual (after 5 years)? I have absolutely no problem with what they choose to share. If I don't like their format, I have the option to listen to 10's of others. It is not as if they are a government investigative agency who failed to collect video evidence. (Ouch) So unfortunate, as the FBI employees were also paid to do their job.
Paid compensation? Segue to KK asking $400 per interview? Does it really surprise anyone that an enterprising CSAM officianado wouldn't figure out how to profit from his evil..even from behind bars? And, asking women for "sexual stuff" via mail, text, cell phone, 3 way calls, smoke signals or drone drop.... isn't that what he has always done? A snake does not stop slithering just because you put it in a cage.
I also read KK isn't happy with the selection of items available in the jail restaurant? I'm from SoCal and the first thing I notice about people finally making it in show biz is they suddenly want special food choices. (... $2 Taco Night is now Gluten free sushi and a Perrier, room temperature, plesase.) IMO KK has finally achieved performing on center stage. ....As Norma Desmond says at the time of her arrest, "Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close up."

 

[Prime8]

I have similar thoughts about this case. Then there is The Murder Sheet going around and beating the drum over KAK and TK and that is at best, premature. And if those two dirtbags have nothing to do with the murders what have they accomplished with respect to the objective and that is who killed the girls? Other than to build up their bank account with more $$$.

I think MS has been really good about what they are releasing as speculation. They are digging into two people who have a criminal history and one that is currently being held for CSAM. They have shown that the police have been questioning at least KAK in the case. They have brought light a few missteps that LE have made in this investigation. This honestly isn't something that most reputable news organizations would do when people want updates on an investigation. MS seems to have earned the trust of a good source (they also had a Delphi area reporter on for an episode who also spoke that they had a source as well). So news organizations are interviewing them, as they likely don't have a good source with the same information. Note that most news stations have been waiting a few days to release what the MS does, most likely to confirm the information on their own.

Reporters get paid for their work. Why do so many people think that podcasters shouldn't be paid for their work?

 

[Prime8]

Minister, community volunteer, coach

I also have always thought that the statements related to "people may be shocked to know who the kill is" is more of a tactic to make people broaden their horizons. Make people realize that the killer is probably "a normal guy at work" vs. "a maniac prowling the streets". Another thought, TK seems to be a pretty social guy. I don't think people who be surprised by a loser living in his dad's basement that doesn't have a job. But maybe they would be surprised that it was the guy they also saw at car shows and concerts.

 

[FromGermany1]

The podcasters. There are so many and every time more. It's trendy nowadays. I thought about it: how it would play out, if the killer would start a podcast himself, of course pointing into the wrong direction with his guests.
I don't think of MS!
How do we know, who initiated any podcast? The killer hasn't to be his own host. Would we ever learn of the connection?

 

[Charlot123]

Why?

For the same reason KAK is. Like everyone, they have own issues, but no motive, no connection.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Back in the day, there was an ironclad rule in the newspaper business that went something like this: Don't ever bring me a story using un-named sources because if you can't name your sources, you do not have a story. The other rule was: Never go off record in an interview.

As we've learned over the past few years, when sources are anonymous, even the most outrageous lies can become the truth. So I have a bit of a problem with podcasters and others who won't name their sources.

 

[FrostedGlass]

From the MS episode: An Eleven-Hundred Foot View
I wonder if Carter was OK with someone close to him discussing this with podcasters. Why didn't they just ask him? Why use a "source"?

At the 9:30mm in the episode, they say:
A well-connected source in law enforcement with access to the superintendent told us that one of the topics discussed was Carter's view was that it's crucial that the Kegan Kline case go to trial and not be pled out. While the plea bargain process is a crucial part of the justice system, Carter seems to believe that it is important that Kegan Kline's case actually go to trial. There may be a strategic reason for this which carter believes could assist the Delphi investigators. Carter even offered to connect Miami co. with a prosecutor from another county to provide more legal manpower.

 

[Prime8]

Back in the day, there was an ironclad rule in the newspaper business that went something like this: Don't ever bring me a story using un-named sources because if you can't name your sources, you do not have a story. The other rule was: Never go off record in an interview.

As we've learned over the past few years, when sources are anonymous, even the most outrageous lies can become the truth. So I have a bit of a problem with podcasters and others who won't name their sources.

MS has never said they are talking to an anonymous source. They know who the source is. They are not naming that source publicly. That is very, very different.

For example, the Water Gate source was unknown to the public and law enforcement, it was known to Woodward and Bernstein. They were able to verify the source.

 

[Prime8]

From the MS episode: An Eleven-Hundred Foot View
I wonder if Carter was OK with someone close to him discussing this with podcasters. Why didn't they just ask him? Why use a "source"?

At the 9:30mm in the episode, they say:
A well-connected source in law enforcement with access to the superintendent told us that one of the topics discussed was Carter's view was that it's crucial that the Kegan Kline case go to trial and not be pled out. While the plea bargain process is a crucial part of the justice system, Carter seems to believe that it is important that Kegan Kline's case actually go to trial. There may be a strategic reason for this which carter believes could assist the Delphi investigators. Carter even offered to connect Miami co. with a prosecutor from another county to provide more legal manpower.

Because Carter doesn't publicly comment on pretty much everything. They use a source because that source is willing to share information. This is not uncommon in journalism.

 

[MistyWaters]

Because Carter doesn't publicly comment on pretty much everything. They use a source because that source is willing to share information. This is not uncommon in journalism.

Anyone close enough for Carter to be in a position to divulge that sort of confidential information would be under a Code of Cunduct to not blab. So I’m not convinced anyone credible would leak type of information to a podcast. Besides, isn’t it the prosecutor who would be involved in any plea bargains (or not) which requires approval from a Judge, all of whom is independent from ISP. The role of ISP is investigating prior to charges being filed. As no charges have been laid it would seem there’s nothing to plea.

That price of information says to me is don’t hold our breathe waiting for charges to be filed against KAK regarding Delphi prior to his upcoming trial….any maybe not after either. JMO

 

[IQuestion]

I've been looking over the 194 page interview transcripts again, and while I acknowledge that we cannot determine which "facts" LE was possibly lying about, there are some things that KAK says, all on his own, which make me curious.

Throughout the interview, KAK repeatedly states he doesn't remember ever talking to L. But this sounds like an admission:

Pg. 160 Lines 21/22 :

A:...Yeah that is a weird *advertiser censored** coincidence that I happened to talk to her like I get that.
____________________

They say he looked up JB Ramsey and OJ Simpson in Vegas. A little later in the interview, while talking about his failed polygraph:

Pg. 173 Lines 1/4:

Q: But those people who fail for other cases or whatever you're referencing weren't talking to the victim of a crime the day of. Weren't grooming them -
A: OJ Simpson yes he was.
Q: Well you looked that up too -

OJ failed his polygraph (the Ramseys passed theirs, but with speculation on the condition of the testing itself). KAK was looking up these cases before he, himself, was polygraphed. For him to bring it up right then in the interview made me wonder if, while in Vegas, following the case, he was thinking how he could explain a failed polygraph test should he be given one. It wasn't until after his polygraph and DNA testing that he looked up how long DNA lasts.

I'm not really getting at anything...just curious.

ETA: Another interesting part. He claims to not remember talking to L, or the a_shots conversation about "OMG, what happened. I was supposed to meet that girl but she never showed..." Then they start talking about his Vegas searches, about IP addresses and servers. KAK says:

Pg 188 Lines 16/18:

A: I was obviously like well I talked to her friend and stuff so. They obviously could see that I talked to her friend on Snapchat, that's probably why I searched that. 'Cause I was probably like oh *advertiser censored** I talked to that person's friend.

Okay, but if he hadn't ever talked to L or he hadn't had the a_shots conversation about meeting her, how would he know, while he was in Vegas, that one of the girls he had talked to was friends with L? He'd have no reason for that thought to cross his mind unless he knew about L and who her friends were. JMO

Just like he claims to be using the Samsung on 2/13/17 to log in and out of a_shots, along with another phone, but also claims not to even have that Samsung until 2/23/17 (ten days later). He seems to put his cart before his horse with sequence of events.

TL4S Excellent observations and follow-up questions! On the KAK thread, a couple of months ago, I remember stating KK offered "bits of info" ie. providing answers, even before the question was asked. (Yes he did, several times. It is his "tell.") He is over rehearsed in providing a little bit of fact to support the huge lie that follows. Example: My dad and I were at home watching pay for view wrestling, Haystack Calhoun vs HuHo*** Okay, kind of the truth....but the wrong night. He was like a guy who over prepares for a test, just too smart and too slick for school. Det V stated as much, "Most of the time, you are probably the smartest person in the room." Silly KAK ate up that line by the ladleful or full ladle! (?) But, KAK is not the smartest man in a room full of hardworking, gainfully employed adults, or tech saavy sleuths. He was a big ugly catfish in a scummy pond filled with smaller ugly catfish. Frankly, if he applied for a job at a tech company, he wouldn't make it past submitting an online resume. KAK (sorry to say this) and his pursuits are a waste of clean air. He took everything about social media, connectivity & tech and turned into something that has become every parent's nightmare.
If LE is indeed searching the river for something or some evidence, other than a weapon.... how many man hours would you be willing to spend if the "other" were photos of the crime scene????? Research: water damaged device data recovery.

 

[Batgirl 2.0]

Maybe LE leaked info to the podcasters as part of a “stimulation strategy” to share the information it wanted those close to KK to receive in order to observe and record any reactions through the use of wiretaps, cameras, and/or physical surveillance. In other words, to stir them up to see if they could catch anyone making a mistake like talking about what happened. Believe that’s what investigators did in the Kristin Smart case. moo

 

[carbuff]

For the same reason KAK is. Like everyone, they have own issues, but no motive, no connection.

I meant why are you saying ministers aren't respected.

There are bad apples but I think on the whole most people look up to their spiritual leaders. It's part of why it's so easy for the bad ones to take advantage of people.

 

[MistyWaters]

Maybe LE leaked info to the podcasters as part of a “stimulation strategy” to share the information it wanted those close to KK to receive in order to observe and record any reactions through the use of wiretaps, cameras, and/or physical surveillance. In other words, to stir them up to see if they could catch anyone making a mistake like talking about what happened. Believe that’s what investigators did in the Kristin Smart case. moo

Possibly but wouldn’t a better strategy to be leaking a possibility of engaging in a plea deal with KAK in order to rattle someone’s chains, rather than not being interested? If the Carter source is true, it gives KAK has no incentive to incriminate anyone else nor himself. But as he seems to aptly fit the definition of a diabolical liar, IMO his word would be meaningless anyway. JMO

 

[Ozoner]

I meant why are you saying ministers aren't respected.

There are bad apples but I think on the whole most people look up to their spiritual leaders. It's part of why it's so easy for the bad ones to take advantage of people.

Members of religious communities might look up to ministers, but non-church-goers probably don't, IMO. Delphi appears to be more church-oriented than most communities, so I suspect that the ministers are respected there.

I'm not convinced that BG is a respected member of the community, so the discussion is probably moot. TK is the best candidate for BG, in my opinion, and he doesn't seem to be particularly well respected.

If TK isn't BG, than I don't think BG has been named by the media.

 

[Batgirl 2.0]

Possibly but wouldn’t a better strategy to be leaking a possibility of engaging in a plea deal with KAK in order to rattle someone’s chains, rather than not being interested? If the Carter source is true, it gives KAK has no incentive to incriminate anyone else nor himself. But as he seems to aptly fit the definition of a diabolical liar, IMO his word would be meaningless anyway. JMO

Exactly. If KK were to incriminate anyone else, how could he possibly be believed? They need proof. Seems to me that the news of KK’s recent negotiations coupled with news of the river search (courtesy of the tip to the podcast) could be an attempt to flush out the bad actor(s). None of us knows what LE knows, so it’s anybody’s guess as to what the best strategy is. When I read about the LE strategy in the Kristin Smart case this week, it made total sense to me why LE would tip off the podcast and then wire tap the phones of the Flores family. And sure enough, the family was recorded talking about the need to poke holes in the podcast. Just wondering if that’s what’s going on in the Delphi case, as well, that’s all. Jmho

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

While the plea bargain process is a crucial part of the justice system, Carter seems to believe that it is important that Kegan Kline's case actually go to trial.

I thought there was a little bravado in Carter's statements. He might have been concerned that KAK's bargained sentence could be seen as a slap on the wrist. He knows you can't force someone to go to trial.

Maybe he was hoping more evidence would be developed and a quick plea deal would mean that the new evidence wouldn't be used as leverage.

KAK has the right to plead guilty even if he will get no "bargain". KAK, although he likes to talk, would not be so stupid to testify. KAK's attorney would know before trial, what evidence was going to be used and who was going to testify.

In my opinion, the prosecutor has charges filed, that are typically used for the purpose of plea bargaining. For instance, if KAK pleads guilty to the most serious charges only, do you think the prosecutor would proceed to trial on Obstruction? That would be a waste of time and resources.
Unfortunately, the river search is not yet affecting this case.