Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

[Imvp2]

Great post. Feb 21 KAK saying he was "f'ed" sounds more like he has intimate knowledge about the murders. I don't think anything would have come out of his mouth if he was the actual killer.

I agree. My opinion, KAK was at the bridge to meet L. While he may not "know" who BG is, he may have directly seen him and perhaps, unwittingly, spoke with him that day. Leading KAK to believe he was seen and may be remembered by BG. Or may have come across L and A after they had passed.

 

[Justice101]

Will this nightmare for the families ever end?

What a seemingly simple.... but ultimately complicated ... case this is.

 

[JnRyan]

Will this nightmare for the families ever end?

What a seemingly simple.... but ultimately complicated ... case this is.

I was listening to one of the hosts of the "Prosecutors" podcast. He is a prosecutor and he said when he first saw the case in the beginning with audio and video his initial reaction was this killer was going to be caught very soon.

I'm not an attorney or LE and when I first read about it I thought it was just a matter of days, maybe weeks, when LE would make an arrest.

 

[AC4RD]

ETA: I might have lost my patience with KAK today...

I agree with the others: great post, with the timeline and your thoughts. And I laughed out loud at the B&RBM line above. You really put the evidence in perspective with that!

When KAK was first publically discussed, I thought it was not important, his catfishing was incidental and co-incidental. As time goes by, there is more and more reason to think about him as (at a minimum) as involved ... and maybe more than just peripherally involved.

You've been around long enough to remember my "photo lineup" showing KAK's weight over time, and my belief that BG could easily be KAK, the sizes (to my eye) match very well when we look at the 2017 photo. When I started pointing that out, I often said I didn't think KAK was BG, just that he could be, based on his size. Over time, I've thought about all the points you made in your message, and it seems (IMO only) that he MUST have been at least involved in some way ... and now, after all this evidence has been laid out and has had time to soak into the sponge I use as a brain ... I seriously believe there's a good chance that KAK is BG.

Again, GREAT summary, @TL4S! Thank you!

 

[TL4S]

I agree with the others: great post, with the timeline and your thoughts. And I laughed out loud at the B&RBM line above. You really put the evidence in perspective with that!

When KAK was first publically discussed, I thought it was not important, his catfishing was incidental and co-incidental. As time goes by, there is more and more reason to think about him as (at a minimum) as involved ... and maybe more than just peripherally involved.

You've been around long enough to remember my "photo lineup" showing KAK's weight over time, and my belief that BG could easily be KAK, the sizes (to my eye) match very well when we look at the 2017 photo. When I started pointing that out, I often said I didn't think KAK was BG, just that he could be, based on his size. Over time, I've thought about all the points you made in your message, and it seems (IMO only) that he MUST have been at least involved in some way ... and now, after all this evidence has been laid out and has had time to soak into the sponge I use as a brain ... I seriously believe there's a good chance that KAK is BG.

Again, GREAT summary, @TL4S! Thank you!

Thank you! I have to say, I'm just shooting around in the dark like everyone else, so I could be way off base. I will be surprised if KAK doesn't have knowledge of the crime, at the very minimum. But the fact that ISP had the FBI remove all descriptors from the poster does make me curious where the height/weight came from originally, and if that's changed, or if they simply didn't want people focusing on that. At the same time, I wonder why there's nothing about a_shots on that FBI poster, or the ISP Delphi site. That sort of quells my confidence that KAK is involved...

The discrepancies of when KAK got that Samsung 5 (Vegas or before) and him thinking he was "f'ed" before he even left for Vegas are the two things that nag at me the most. However, these could simply be because he was catfishing L prior to her being murdered and that freaked him out. I try to stay neutral on him so I don't see something beyond what's really there, but yesterday I was done playing nice.

 

[sandy_80]

I was watching an old murder case the other day..a child called christine
a profile of the murderer was created..early twenties or teen..a sexual offender..rage issues
it was just the male across the street and he fit the profile perfectly
you can tell such a profile was not adequately created for this murder..the complexity of the crime and its planning and the staging of the crime scene..his IQ ..SK or opportunist offender
how do i know that.. cause apparently any bad guy fits the bill ..in all shapes and sizes and mentality and ages..
MPO

 

[FromGermany1]

Will this nightmare for the families ever end?

What a seemingly simple.... but ultimately complicated ... case this is.

I believe, "a twist" came up in the early days (as they said) and made the case more complicated than usual. From this point LE were lost until 2019, and the many thousands of tips, also more than usual (I assume), didn't make it easier.

With countless child predators in Indiana and in the play as well, I can imagine, LE simply didn't pay enough attention to the right person, because he seems (still?) so clean to them and this person least "needed" to gain any importance through criminal acts (like abduction/murder). The haysack, someone mentioned, is just much too huge.

We have no profile of the killer, afaik, but LE said, what could have changed after the murder (behavior, optics, mental state and so on). I wonder, if they have ever screened anyone against their own checklist for up to 1 year or 1.5 years after the murder?
MOO

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I agree with the others: great post, with the timeline and your thoughts. And I laughed out loud at the B&RBM line above. You really put the evidence in perspective with that!

When KAK was first publically discussed, I thought it was not important, his catfishing was incidental and co-incidental. As time goes by, there is more and more reason to think about him as (at a minimum) as involved ... and maybe more than just peripherally involved.

You've been around long enough to remember my "photo lineup" showing KAK's weight over time, and my belief that BG could easily be KAK, the sizes (to my eye) match very well when we look at the 2017 photo. When I started pointing that out, I often said I didn't think KAK was BG, just that he could be, based on his size. Over time, I've thought about all the points you made in your message, and it seems (IMO only) that he MUST have been at least involved in some way ... and now, after all this evidence has been laid out and has had time to soak into the sponge I use as a brain ... I seriously believe there's a good chance that KAK is BG.

Again, GREAT summary, @TL4S! Thank you!

You’re right, @TL4S , is an exceptional poster!
What she/he brings to the table is quite helpful.
And I’m grateful for his/her contributions to this thread (and others).

 

[TL4S]

You’re right, @TL4S , is an exceptional poster!
What she/he brings to the table is quite helpful.
And I’m grateful for his/her contributions to this thread (and others).

I appreciate the kindness. Honestly, I'm just making guesses and theorizing like everyone. Most likely the killer will end up being a guy on nobody's radar and we'll all be floored!

 

[AC4RD]

... and he fit the profile perfectly
you can tell such a profile was not adequately created for this murder. [...]
how do i know that.. cause apparently any bad guy fits the bill ..in all shapes and sizes and mentality and ages..
MPO

Sandy, you know I like and respect you as a poster, so you certainly know I'm not trying to be critical of you, but I'm an old skeptic at heart, and a couple of my "yeah, BUT what if .." points:

**** "... profile was not adequately created for this murder" Yes, a profile was not created ... that we know about. But LE has been VERY closemouthed about what evidence they have and whom they have investigated and how, and what they actually know. We may know 20% of what LE knows ... or we might know 2%. Maybe you saw the list of "questions I wish I knew the answer to" a page or three farther up this thread? LE certainly knows some of those, and probably wishes it knew the rest of them, but we don't know enough about what's going on inside the investigation to be able to guess what they do and don't know. Maybe they've created a profile for LE distribution only; we don't know they haven't.

**** "...apparently any bad guy fits the bill ..in all shapes and sizes and mentality and ages" Yes, we've done a lot of speculating: the murderer(s) might be JBC or PE or the local Presbyterian church's Council of Elders, or a troupe of lefthanded Albanian acrobats. But we don't know WHO might have been in lawn forcement's gaze during the investigation; we don't know who they looked at, or how many of them, or what shapes and sizes and ages or any of that. It's fair to say that "we" have talked about a lot of possible subjects, but we can't say that LE has been looking at so many subjects of all ages/sizes/etc. We can't say that because we don't know WHO they've looked at or suspected. We don't even know what breed of dog that jacket-puppy on the bridge was! ;-)

So yeah, I agree, those of us outside the investigation have a million questions and a thousand separate Persons of Interest. But we can't say that's true of law enforcement: we don't know anything like that from inside the investigation. IMHO and MOO. ---ken

 

[cbeagle]

One could almost think they were leaking information to control the narrative. Why they would do that leads to wild (or maybe not) speculation.

Kristin Smart Murder Trial: Sheriff's office leaked information prior wiretapping Flores' phones

A former deputy sheriff with the San Luis Obispo Sheriff's Office testified in court Tuesday that he was aware the department leaked information to a podcast, credited with reigniting interest in Kristin Smart's disappearance.

www.cbsnews.com

What followed, was the acknowledgment that the SLO Sheriff's Office released information to Lambert for the podcast to get the Flores family talking.

"The idea being that if you can put something provocative out there and the podcast out there, that might make the Flores family talk about it on the phone." said Sanger who added the move was, "trying to get the Flores family to say something incriminating"

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Sandy, you know I like and respect you as a poster, so you certainly know I'm not trying to be critical of you, but I'm an old skeptic at heart, and a couple of my "yeah, BUT what if .." points:

**** "... profile was not adequately created for this murder" Yes, a profile was not created ... that we know about. But LE has been VERY closemouthed about what evidence they have and whom they have investigated and how, and what they actually know. We may know 20% of what LE knows ... or we might know 2%. Maybe you saw the list of "questions I wish I knew the answer to" a page or three farther up this thread? LE certainly knows some of those, and probably wishes it knew the rest of them, but we don't know enough about what's going on inside the investigation to be able to guess what they do and don't know. Maybe they've created a profile for LE distribution only; we don't know they haven't.

**** "...apparently any bad guy fits the bill ..in all shapes and sizes and mentality and ages" Yes, we've done a lot of speculating: the murderer(s) might be JBC or PE or the local Presbyterian church's Council of Elders, or a troupe of lefthanded Albanian acrobats. But we don't know WHO might have been in lawn forcement's gaze during the investigation; we don't know who they looked at, or how many of them, or what shapes and sizes and ages or any of that. It's fair to say that "we" have talked about a lot of possible subjects, but we can't say that LE has been looking at so many subjects of all ages/sizes/etc. We can't say that because we don't know WHO they've looked at or suspected. We don't even know what breed of dog that jacket-puppy on the bridge was! ;-)

So yeah, I agree, those of us outside the investigation have a million questions and a thousand separate Persons of Interest. But we can't say that's true of law enforcement: we don't know anything like that from inside the investigation. IMHO and MOO. ---ken

Very good point here!
But I believe you meant what breed of GOAT was nestled in the jacket on the bridge…

 

[Imvp2]

Kristin Smart Murder Trial: Sheriff's office leaked information prior wiretapping Flores' phones

A former deputy sheriff with the San Luis Obispo Sheriff's Office testified in court Tuesday that he was aware the department leaked information to a podcast, credited with reigniting interest in Kristin Smart's disappearance.

www.cbsnews.com

What followed, was the acknowledgment that the SLO Sheriff's Office released information to Lambert for the podcast to get the Flores family talking.

"The idea being that if you can put something provocative out there and the podcast out there, that might make the Flores family talk about it on the phone." said Sanger who added the move was, "trying to get the Flores family to say something incriminating"

I wonder if LE is holding KAK, and leaking some of the info he's said, to flush out BG somehow. KAK may not mind being behind bars because it keeps him from being a target of BG, who may believe KAK knows or saw something significant that day. Just been thinking about this for awhile now

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I wonder if LE is holding KAK, and leaking some of the info he's said, to flush out BG somehow. KAK may not mind being behind bars because it keeps him from being a target of BG, who may believe KAK knows or saw something significant that day. Just been thinking about this for awhile now

I think that you could be right. And/or something very close of the like.

 

[TheVisual]

Very good point here!
But I believe you meant what breed of GOAT was nestled in the jacket on the bridge…

Not goat, beagle/blue tick

 

[FromGermany1]

I wonder if LE is holding KAK, and leaking some of the info he's said, to flush out BG somehow. KAK may not mind being behind bars because it keeps him from being a target of BG, who may believe KAK knows or saw something significant that day. Just been thinking about this for awhile now

You are quite right! Perhaps KAK fled Indiana because of BG and not for making money/driving hot cars/having jobs in LV?

To have in mind: TK didn't flee, afaik, .......

 

[sandy_80]

Sandy, you know I like and respect you as a poster, so you certainly know I'm not trying to be critical of you, but I'm an old skeptic at heart, and a couple of my "yeah, BUT what if .." points:

**** "... profile was not adequately created for this murder" Yes, a profile was not created ... that we know about. But LE has been VERY closemouthed about what evidence they have and whom they have investigated and how, and what they actually know. We may know 20% of what LE knows ... or we might know 2%. Maybe you saw the list of "questions I wish I knew the answer to" a page or three farther up this thread? LE certainly knows some of those, and probably wishes it knew the rest of them, but we don't know enough about what's going on inside the investigation to be able to guess what they do and don't know. Maybe they've created a profile for LE distribution only; we don't know they haven't.

**** "...apparently any bad guy fits the bill ..in all shapes and sizes and mentality and ages" Yes, we've done a lot of speculating: the murderer(s) might be JBC or PE or the local Presbyterian church's Council of Elders, or a troupe of lefthanded Albanian acrobats. But we don't know WHO might have been in lawn forcement's gaze during the investigation; we don't know who they looked at, or how many of them, or what shapes and sizes and ages or any of that. It's fair to say that "we" have talked about a lot of possible subjects, but we can't say that LE has been looking at so many subjects of all ages/sizes/etc. We can't say that because we don't know WHO they've looked at or suspected. We don't even know what breed of dog that jacket-puppy on the bridge was! ;-)

So yeah, I agree, those of us outside the investigation have a million questions and a thousand separate Persons of Interest. But we can't say that's true of law enforcement: we don't know anything like that from inside the investigation. IMHO and MOO. ---ken

right.. the argument we don't know what they know keeps coming up.. however we did follow the case for 5 years and we did hear outlandish statements like
( we have two different sketches ..but BG might be a combination of both..and more recently ( if you overlap them you might see BGs face ?)
this is one thing makes me think they dont know much...you see you might have evidence like ( witness statements and sketches ) but you can still not know what to do with it ...
....
so you don't think BG comes is all shapes and IQ and sizes
but it could be kak >>>or his dad or DN or GK ?
what is the one common thing all of our suspects has ?
I only see a white sexual offender
does BG has a shape..a build ..weight ..height , age now ?
if he does.. why are we seeing these names then

 

[Yemelyan]

Regarding profiles....

In my opinion, LE never release a full investigative profile to the public in an on-going, unsolved case. They might release a partial one, or release pieces of information that they feel may guide a member of the public to submit a relevant tip, but the reason they are never released in full is that profiles always contain information that is held back while the investigation is on-going, IMO. Profiles are not created so that a member of the public can solve the case. They are one of many investigative tools that may help LE focus their lines of inquiry and assist them when they question possible suspects.

Profiles are not going to contain information like "he has blue eyes, weighs 180 pounds, drives a red car and wears a size 9.5 shoe." The purpose of a profile is not to get a description of a suspect out so that the public can watch out for a person who looks a certain way. So it doesn't follow that if police are still looking at people with widely varying appearances, therefore they never made a profile or their profile is wrong.

Instead of being based on physical characteristics, profiles are based on offender behaviors that occurred as part of the crime. It looks at things like what victim was selected, where, when and how; personation and ritual behaviors (those that were not necessary to the crime itself but speak to the offender's internal motivations or psychological desires/fantasies), and how the body was disposed of. It predicts why an offender may have had an opportunity to commit a crime, and what behaviors or actions he's using to cover up what he did.

The predictive part of the analysis is based on research into what offenders have done in similar crimes. For example, the average age of a person who commits a sexually-motivated murder of a child is around 27. Does that mean 14 year olds and 75 year olds never commit sexually -motivated murders of children? Of course not. Does it mean that, combined with other elements of a hypothetical crime, such as how he disposed of the victim's body (would need his own car, for example), the profile can predict that in a particular case it probably wasn't the teenager? This type of prediction doesn't rule out, but helps winnow suspects into pools of greater and lesser likelihood.

IMO we already heard the part of the official profile of the Delphi killer that they were willing to let the public know. We heard it at a press conference on February 22, 2017: FBI seeks behavioral changes in Delphi case

 

[StarryStarryNight]

right.. the argument we don't know what they know keeps coming up.. however we did follow the case for 5 years and we did hear outlandish statements like
( we have two different sketches ..but BG might be a combination of both..and more recently ( if you overlap them you might see BGs face ?)
this is one thing makes me think they dont know much...you see you might have evidence like ( witness statements and sketches ) but you can still not know what to do with it ...
....
so you don't think BG comes is all shapes and IQ and sizes
but it could be kak >>>or his dad or DN or GK ?
what is the one common thing all of our suspects has ?
I only see a white sexual offender
does BG has a shape..a build ..weight ..height , age now ?
if he does.. why are we seeing these names then

Like the rest of us, I don’t know how much LE actually knows about this case, but considering how much it has jumped around the last five years, it certainly makes you wonder if they really know anything.
One thing I feel we do know, which you touched upon, is LE is the absolute worst at communicating anything to the public. They barely say anything but the little bit they do say usually makes no sense and has to be clarified multiple times. Even after that things rarely make sense, and the public is confused and that ramps up all the speculation just trying to figure out what LE is talking about.
This has been going on for five years and LE has appropriately been criticized for their poor communication throughout that time, but it is just as bad now as it was at the beginning.
Add into that, that we have been lied to and misled by them and….well, don’t get me started…

 

[IQuestion]

right.. the argument we don't know what they know keeps coming up.. however we did follow the case for 5 years and we did hear outlandish statements like
( we have two different sketches ..but BG might be a combination of both..and more recently ( if you overlap them you might see BGs face ?)
this is one thing makes me think they dont know much...you see you might have evidence like ( witness statements and sketches ) but you can still not know what to do with it ...
....
so you don't think BG comes is all shapes and IQ and sizes
but it could be kak >>>or his dad or DN or GK ?
what is the one common thing all of our suspects has ?
I only see a white sexual offender
does BG has a shape..a build ..weight ..height , age now ?
if he does.. why are we seeing these names then

SANDY80, I agree with a lot of your points. I think early on, some members of LE had the "usual suspects" in mind.ie Violent RSO's. That was the "safe and most obvious play." Easy pickins.' ?? However, I always suspected something about the DNA was wrong (incomplete), because it didn't make sense for LE to travel long distances to RSO's if found DNA would have eliminated them immediately. Not verifying KAK's alibi, missing devices, missed polygraph indicators, and the missing video from the gas station....(I'm screaming into a towel.) Sure the April 22, 2019 press conference was painful.. really painful. But, as ISP Carter said, "There’s going to be a tremendous amount of questions. I know that, I know that. Never in my career have I stood in front of something like this."
Review his crafted wording, "For more than two years you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but we have." After A_S was identified in another CSAM investigation and brought to ISP's attention, they realized he had been hiding in plain sight. Whoa, now the "psycho" analysis and/or psychoanalysis of KAK went into full throttle (another car reference) ...and instead of looking at him as a repeat offender with a rap sheet, now looking at his profile as a budding serial killer. I say this because they didn't let him stay on the streets for very long after, did they? The press conference was designed to make KAK panic. Wish I could have been a fly on the dashboard as he said to himself, "they know it's me."
Sorry if I messed up on organizing my thoughts, but I think you'll get my emphasis. Wonder how much his bitcoin account has dropped since his arrest?