Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #93

[apples12]

Apples, don’t you work in the mental health field? I seem to remember you mentioning back when this happened. Anyway, do you think this is a one-off, and he will never do it again? Do you think something specific triggered it such as divorce or getting fired or whatever? If so I’m assuming if something triggers him again he may kill again, yes?

Hi teeandcee...Thank you for remembering. Yes, I am a psychoanalyst ( for 36 years). Of course it is difficult to predict, but I will try to give an intelligent go at it. The cycle of this kind of murder often begins with delusional thinking left to fester. It then moves to fantasy, planning stage. Finally overwhelming emotional conflict triggers the commission of the violent criminal act. This results in temporary relief from the emotional conflict. The fifth POSSIBLE stage is for a person to realize their thinking was faulty and change (get help for) the delusional thinking. Serial killers never reach stage five. They go back and forth between stage two and stage four.

In this Delphi case, my honest assessment is that this could very well be an individual capable of achieving stage five. That is not to say he should not be held fully accountable for his crimes. But, no, I don't think he will do it again.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Reading different descriptions of the perpetrator saw this from


I wonder if he knew about cell phones. I guess he didn't see them taking the video of him or he had no idea that they were taking a video of him. I"m trying to figure out why he wouldn't of taken the phone/s .

He may not have seen the phone because his head was down while on the bridge. I wonder if Libby had pockets or a bag that she placed it in after taking the pic but left the audio on, either on purpose or accidental.

 

[TL4S]

I think this guy is disorganized, based on exactly what you say: “He took a big chance.”

An attack on two teenage girls in broad daylight, is the definition of reckless and brazen.

I think this would have been over quickly, and likely included a great deal of violence.

This is a hallmark of disorganized offenders.

He couldn’t use wit and charm to get what what he wanted; he needed to use fear and force (perhaps a weapon), to gain compliance.

A more organized offender wouldn’t take these risks, or have to commit a crime this way.

I don’t think there was much planning here, or that he selected these girls out in advance.

He’s probably not smart enough for that.

I think this was fairly spontaneous, as he likely has poor self control.

He’s not some criminal mastermind, rather, he’s one lucky SOB.

Thank you. That helps explain what I'm seeing in him.

 

[apples12]

This question is for those more familiar with criminal patterns. There are a lot of comments about this crime being planned, murder kits, disguises, fantasizing, serial killer behavior, etc. To my amateur eye, I don't see that. I see somebody who took a big chance and the whole thing was over in probably less than 30 minutes, including time walking to the spot. I understand we don't know all the information, but do the known details of the crime fit into all the psychological patterns being discussed? An honest question.

Yes, they really do.

 

[MsBetsy]

Hi teeandcee...Thank you for remembering. Yes, I am a psychoanalyst ( for 36 years). Of course it is difficult to predict, but I will try to give an intelligent go at it. The cycle of this kind of murder often begins with delusional thinking left to fester. It then moves to fantasy, planning stage. Finally overwhelming emotional conflict triggers the commission of the violent criminal act. This results in temporary relief from the emotional conflict. The fifth POSSIBLE stage is for a person to realize their thinking was faulty and change (get help for) the delusional thinking. Serial killers never reach stage five. They go back and forth between stage two and stage four.

In this Delphi case, my honest assessment is that this could very well be an individual capable of achieving stage five. That is not to say he should not be held fully accountable for his crimes. But, no, I don't think he will do it again.

I think even if he had an uncontrollable urge to kill again he wouldn't do it simply because he knows LE likely has eyes on him and it would be too much of a risk. Jmo

 

[MistyWaters]

Surely these people were all looked at and cleared. Right?

The search on the 14th was organized iirc. Searchers were asked to meet at the firehall early that the morning and search teams were organized so it’s wasn’t a helter skelter type of search iirc.

I have great empathy for the searchers assigned to the area where the bodies were found and it must’ve been a traumatic discovery for everyone involved. I think we can be certain LE took their statements and was competent enough to consider the fact the perp may have joined up.

 

[apples12]

I think even if he had an uncontrollable urge to kill again he wouldn't do it simply because he knows LE likely has eyes on him and it would be too much of a risk. Jmo

I know what you mean! You'd think his mind would operate in a self preservation mode. However the strength of the delusions and the internal conflict often overwhelms rational thinking. If he does not change that, one day or another, he would repeat it despite the risk. MOO

 

[Voice4theSilent]

Can you link the podcast? I can’t find it. I’m wondering why they’re still using the video if he’s been cleared.

‎Best Case Worst Case: 122 | Worst Case Scenario: The Delphi Murders on Apple Podcasts

He hasn't been cleared. The guy on the bridge is the murderer, he just doesn't look like the first sketch but the newly released one.

 

[Kitsey]

Here are my thoughts on BG and this case. Unfortunately, I don’t think LE has any DNA on him. I’m on the fence if it was sexually motivated or not. Whether it was or wasn’t, I don’t think he had the time to do anything sexually. He had on layers of clothes, probably gloves as well, and was dealing with 2 seemingly strong girls. I think LE would have good, useful DNA if there had been any kind of sexual assault and he would probaby be in the system.

I think he sounds and looks extremely calm and confidant. He doesn’t appear to be in a hurry or frazzled at all. I think he’s in his early to mid 30’s and carries a badge. This could be any type of official looking badge from a PO to a park ranger to an FDA inspector, to a Federal RR investigator, etc.... He could have flashed his badge, said “down the hill” and I think the girls would have gone quietly. Of course this is all JMO

Someone very helpful posted an article a while back in which LE did state that they had DNA. Massguy opined that the DNA must not be of high quality as a Parabon has not been released and the age range is so broad. That leads me to hope that the girls were not sexually assaulted, but the odds of other motives are so slim. It’s baffling.

 

[Jabarn]

Saw link to this user-friendly map of the bridge & surrounding area - I think the “former social services building” on the upper right was the location of the parked / abandoned car mentioned at the press conf. I appreciate a kiddie map like this so thought I’d post - HTH someone else too

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/newsbug.info/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/d/eb/deb60c4e-acf9-11e5-9ce2-bbc779333205/568082db42bb4.image.jpg?resize=1200,1553

Thanks for sharing this... so much.

It shows the major buildings and areas, as well as the former social services building. I know it was not being used at the time of the crime and has since been demolished.

In GH’s vids, he shows a dirt or gravel road that can be seen in the area, and it would be helpful to see where it lies in relation to the bridge on a map like this.

It does not make sense he would not have crossed back over the bridge, but had an exit route that your map helps me see better. He may have had to walk up a steep embankment from the area where the girls were found to get back to the social services building on the rerouted 300 (if that theory holds any water). IMO.

 

[Backstroke10]

Someone very helpful posted an article a while back in which LE did state that they had DNA. Massguy opined that the DNA must not be of high quality as a Parabon has not been released and the age range is so broad. That leads me to hope that the girls were not sexually assaulted, but the odds of other motives are so slim. It’s baffling.

Yeah, this whole case is baffling. I’ve read that LE says they have DNA but I don’t think they do. I hope I’m wrong. If they had a definite suspect and DNA then they could get his DNA from a dropped cigarette, fast food straw, garbage etc.

 

[ab01]

The search on the 14th was organized iirc. Searchers were asked to meet at the firehall early that the morning and search teams were organized so it’s wasn’t a helter skelter type of search iirc.

I have great empathy for the searchers assigned to the area where the bodies were found and it must’ve been a traumatic discovery for everyone involved. I think we can be certain LE took their statements and was competent enough to consider the fact the perp may have joined up.

Agreed !And with the scope of this investigation I would be very surprised if everyone involved wasn't at the very least asked various questions. MOO

 

[MassGuy]

Someone very helpful posted an article a while back in which LE did state that they had DNA. Massguy opined that the DNA must not be of high quality as a Parabon has not been released and the age range is so broad. That leads me to hope that the girls were not sexually assaulted, but the odds of other motives are so slim. It’s baffling.

Just because he may have intended sexual assault, does not mean that he was able to carry it out though.

Or even attempt it.

A lot of things could have happened that would force him to get out of there quickly.

I think it’s more likely that there was no sexual assault, than the opposite.

Even though I do believe this was sexually motivated.

 

[peel]

imho, this was an opportunistic killing....no disguises....no planning..except after the killing he tried mighty hard to diffuse anything that would lead to him....

we have no way of knowing if he would do it again......

lets go back to the beginning......who found the bodies?<modsnipped rumor is not allowed here>

<modsnipped unfounded speculation>

so who found the bodies?

 

[holtzmann]

I love you, @holtzmann!! Lol!

Lol thank you @gitana1 ! I have really appreciated reading your insights and calm logical explanations of a lot of the legal side (most of which I am only tangentially aware of). It is really beneficial to have an attorney involved in this discussion and I appreciate all your posts!

 

[apples12]

Agreed !And with the scope of this investigation I would be very surprised if everyone involved wasn't at the very least asked various questions. MOO

Right! Probably why Carter said in the PC: "I probably interviewed you".

 

[momoftwocrazies]

Hi teeandcee...Thank you for remembering. Yes, I am a psychoanalyst ( for 36 years). Of course it is difficult to predict, but I will try to give an intelligent go at it. The cycle of this kind of murder often begins with delusional thinking left to fester. It then moves to fantasy, planning stage. Finally overwhelming emotional conflict triggers the commission of the violent criminal act. This results in temporary relief from the emotional conflict. The fifth POSSIBLE stage is for a person to realize their thinking was faulty and change (get help for) the delusional thinking. Serial killers never reach stage five. They go back and forth between stage two and stage four.

In this Delphi case, my honest assessment is that this could very well be an individual capable of achieving stage five. That is not to say he should not be held fully accountable for his crimes. But, no, I don't think he will do it again.

This is so interesting. Can I ask what about the crime leads you to believe he has the capacity to reach level 5?

 

[ab01]

Just because he may have intended sexual assault, does not mean that he was able to carry it out though.

Or even attempt it.

A lot of things could have happened that would force him to get out of there quickly.

I think it’s more likely that there was no sexual assault, than the opposite.

Even though I do believe this was sexually motivated.

I think a crime like this by a middle age male against two 14 yr old girls almost definitely points to SA being the likely motivation.

I also am not convinced that it actually occurred and I agree there could be various reasons why it didn't ultimately take place.

 

[LogicalMan]

Even though I'm a fairly regular poster and I knew bits and pieces about this case, I am fairly new to the details. I haven't followed it closely for two years so I'm coming at it with fairly fresh eyes but I agree with you - the power of suggestion is strong. That said, to me, the first sketch fits the figure better but I also see a younger, shaven face. I also see a baseball cap, not a hoodie.

Also, as a court stenographer, I have listened to hours and hours of taped audio during my professional career and I hear "Go down the hill". I do not hear the word "guys".

What I'm most surprised about, though, is the graininess of the video and/or photo image. Even an older phone would take good video and photos. Maybe I've watched too much Criminal Minds and Dateline, but I'm surprised they aren't able to provide a sharper image, especially since they have the original.

Exactly my thoughts on the quality of the video. As I posted earlier, the camera is not focused on BG, that’s why the quality is low. I think we would have had a much sharper video if Abby wasn’t in the way.

I think the quality of the camera was, but if you look closely, the quality of the image appears to what you would see in the background of an image, something is in front and that’s where the camera was focused.

 

[Stephen2016]

When he says what sounds like "Guys Down The Hill" why did the recording stop. If he was threatening them down the hill I would think the girls might have screamed or protested or pleaded with him. Maybe there is more that isn't being released for reasons.

Also where was the phone actually found did they drop the phone hoping someone would find it ?
If not I'm thinking he didn't know how cell phones work and what they can actually do. And as such he didn't see a need to destroy or take the phone itself. Which makes me think he was an older person. Probably didn't have kids of his own somewhat of a loner, never married, and probably grew up and lived in the same area for most of his life.

He must of left DNA possibly, a shoe print in the mud etc. It's hard to believe he hasn't been caught yet or that he soon will be.

By the way I keep seeing people refer to a BG and MOO what do they mean ?