Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #98

[OldLadyBlues]

I think it was a rookie mistake, not uncommon among first time killers.

He either saw the phone and forgot about it, or it never occurred to him to look for one in the first place.

I think it’s likely that he had no idea that Libby had recorded him.

It’s always nice when a victim is able to bring their killer to justice.

It may not be the reason he is caught, but it very well might aid in his conviction when he is.

Sometimes there are kids who are smarter beyond their years. I truly believe Libby was one of those kids. If she knew to photograph him, knew to flip the button on record, knew to shove it in her pocket while recording, do you honestly think she wanted her murderer take custody of it?
I think this child in having an interest in this field enough to take classes, acted on her instincts and "lost" her "evidence" in underbrush, leaves, whatever to be found. Her granddad said she was like that...probably took the pic of the weird BG so the she could show it to him when she got home. (Dr. Phil interview, I believe)
I keep wanting to tell Libby, she did a good job! We hear her! Just bear with us while we figure it out!
MOO, MOO

 

[Tillicum]

For those of you who think this is his first murderS, honestly I am very surprised by how many have said this and I’m wondering what leafs you to that opinion. I was also wondering for reference if anyone can name a child killer who’s first kill was a dual homicide? Tia. This must surely exist as we see mass shootings for example which are a “first kill”, but specifically for discussion purposes as related to child killers and likely pedophiles I do wonder about a dual homicide as a first crime. Anything is possible but imo I would lean towards this not being his first murder.

Also, how you feel about this could also depend upon how old you think the suspect is. If he is closer to 20, well then chances are likely his body count is less than if he is 40. Big difference between 20 and 40 imo as far as how this all goes.

The SK that killed my sister, killed 2 young girls his first kill.

 

[margarita25]

The SK that killed my sister, killed 2 young girls his first kill.

Oh, Tillicum...I’m so sorrry! Oh my gosh, hugs!!!!!

Wow. Well say no more. That’s ALL I needed to know. Seriously, ask a question and get an answer.

 

[mtnlites]

For those of you who think this is his first murderS, honestly I am very surprised by how many have said this and I’m wondering what leafs you to that opinion. I was also wondering for reference if anyone can name a child killer who’s first kill was a dual homicide? Tia. This must surely exist as we see mass shootings for example which are a “first kill”, but specifically for discussion purposes as related to child killers and likely pedophiles I do wonder about a dual homicide as a first crime. Anything is possible but imo I would lean towards this not being his first murder.

I said this in the last thread, but Ronnie Dean Busick killed Lauria Bible and Ashley Freeman (teenagers). First murders and, as far as I know, the only time he killed.

Ernest Broadnax killed Lynn Seethaler and Janice Pietropola (teenagers) in 1973. Also first murders.

Cary Stayner's first murders were of 3 women (2 teenagers and 1 adult).

Holly Marie Wells and Jessica Aimee Chapman (10 years old) in 2002, England. Keith Pryer's first, and only murders.

There are more.

 

[Kitsey]

I said this in the last thread, but Ronnie Dean Busick killed Lauria Bible and Ashley Freeman (teenagers). First murders and, as far as I know, the only time he killed.

Ernest Broadnax killed Lynn Seethaler and Janice Pietropola (teenagers) in 1973. Also first murders.

Cary Stayner's first murders were of 3 women (2 teenagers and 1 adult).

Holly Marie Wells and Jessica Aimee Chapman (10 years old) in 2002, England. Keith Pryer's first, and only murders.

There are more.

Good examples. Weren’t there several killers in Laurie and Ashley’s case?

I’m so sorry, Tillicum.

 

[mtnlites]

Good examples. Weren’t there several killers in Laurie and Ashley’s case?

I’m so sorry, Tillicum.

One killer, as far as charges go, but there were definitely several involved in the crime and cover up. And many people knew about the details over the years.

 

[margarita25]

I said this in the last thread, but Ronnie Dean Busick killed Lauria Bible and Ashley Freeman (teenagers). First murders and, as far as I know, the only time he killed.

Ernest Broadnax killed Lynn Seethaler and Janice Pietropola (teenagers) in 1973. Also first murders.

Cary Stayner's first murders were of 3 women (2 teenagers and 1 adult).

Holly Marie Wells and Jessica Aimee Chapman (10 years old) in 2002, England. Keith Pryer's first, and only murders.

There are more.

Thank you. That seems to answer that for certain that dual homicide is not necessarily indicative of an experienced predator. Exactly what I was wondering about.

 

[Charlot123]

This is interesting to me. Anyone know if it matters that a prosecutor is sworn in at the time of arrest? Would be interesting in understanding the timing on his return. I hope it is so he can nail BG!

I don’t know how the law, but logically, it should be OK. He is the prosecutor for the county. And what if something happens to the prosecutor during a trial? They don’t declare a mistrial, do they? I think not, law is more or less impersonal, and a prosecutor is one of its figures.

Maybe someone knows different?

 

[MistyWaters]

View attachment 182556

I'm sorry; I don't know how to carry a quote over from a previous thread. I just snipped and pasted the above.

It was me who wrote that LE said the re-enactments were not correct. That was back in Thread #87. Here was the post:

I have seen some of Gray's videos and have found them to be very helpful in visualizing the way the crime may have unfolded.

However, Indiana State Police Sgt. Jerry Holeman has made an interesting comment about the reenactment videos. I don't know if he is referring to the videos made by Gray or by Anthony Greeno or by someone else (or by all of them).

Here's what Sargent Holeman said: “The videos help us know that people don’t know the true details, because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

In addressing concerns that police have held back too many details on such a high-profile case, Holeman said that is standard protocol for ongoing investigations. He said, "We do that so when we get key evidence, only the killer or killers know the cause of death. We don’t release it to the media because then everyone and their brother would know, and it’s common to get false confessions from mentally disturbed people. So we’re trying to keep the details close to our vests.”

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

Choochoobella, Feb 20, 2019Report
#1153

Just my thoughts, I don’t think LEs comments were directed at GH at all because if they were, he’d have pulled his videos. He’s always clearly stated his reenactment videos are only his theory and no suspect is ever named. There’s other YouTube videos out there and how might any of those might lead to false tips? I do wonder if some re-enactments include a male acting out the role of BG. And people were reporting a person who resembles the actor? That’s my best guess.

 

[margarita25]

Question and sorry if rehash, do we know how far girls had ever ventured past the bridge in the past? In other words, would they have been familiar with the specific area where they were ultimately found?

 

[MuddyTires]

Well, unless BG has been living under a rock, whether he heard a ring or not, I would think he would assume there’s a strong likelihood that one or both of these teens had a phone. Apparently, it seemed of no consequence to him. MOO

I'm sorry, this may have been answered, but was the phone found near the girls or not? Could she have thrown it? Or could it have been just dropped and he didn't immediately know where and didn't feel like he had time to look?

 

[ab01]

I'm sorry, this may have been answered, but was the phone found near the girls or not? Could she have thrown it? Or could it have been just dropped and he didn't immediately know where and didn't feel like he had time to look?

I believe it’s only ever been stated that it was recovered near the girls moo

 

[peel]

yes....LIBBY we will avenge you....someday, somehow......

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm sorry, this may have been answered, but was the phone found near the girls or not? Could she have thrown it? Or could it have been just dropped and he didn't immediately know where and didn't feel like he had time to look?

How near is near? It’s difficult to know. My end table is near my sofa, about 6 inches away and I live near a town that’s 20 miles down the road.

 

[TeaTime]

LE should have said "our investigation has uncovered a person of interest that looks like this. Did anyone see this guy at the trail that day? We believe him to be intimately familiar with Delphi and therefore, someone here in Delphi knows him. We need to talk to him. I need his name. I'll be waiting on the call. Good night."

When the reporters all started stammering "what about the first sketch?", LE should have responded, "we are on the right track. We need a name. Show the public the sketch and tell them I want a name and I will be at my office waiting for the call. Go, do your job. Quickly. " And, then walked away from the microphone.

 

[Harmony 2]

Please don’t be disappointed if we don’t get an update next week from law enforcement I’m not expecting one. It is more important that all the efforts are on working the case than providing public and media updates. I don’t know what the FBI and law enforcement’s strategy is to ramp up the pressure even more on BG but hopefully we will get an update in the near future. Please remember each day that passes is a day closer to his arrest. We need to be patient which I know is difficult and frustrating but it is even harder for the girl’s families and law enforcement.

I hope you all have a pleasant weekend.

bbm
I started re-reading John Douglas’ Mindhunter book recently. I found it interesting that in one of the cases he assisted in, he asked law enforcement to consider going proactive using police efforts and the media to lure the killer into a trap. He suggested that police set up a series of community meetings to discuss the crime. He was reasonably certain the killer would show up for one or more of those. This ties into Carter’s statement at the recent press conference:

"We believe you are hiding in plain sight" and even "may be in this room," Carter said at a news conference.
Delphi girls' double murder: Police explain change in person of interest sketch

Another ploy Douglas suggested was for police to announce to the press that there had been a witness or witnesses. He felt it would draw out the killer to enact his own ‘proactive strategy’ and come forward to explain why he might have been innocently seen at the vicinity of the crime. Coincidentally, in the days following the news conference this statement was posted in mainstream media.

Former FBI agent and ABC News contributor Brad Garrett said the new sketch likely came from a new witness -- "someone that's come forward, maybe alleging to have actually seen the guy they're looking for."

Mystery deepens as officials search for 'key' in girls' murders


Mindhunter: Inside the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit|Paperback

 

[Elle*Bee]

Guys, coming from a transplant. Is “dudes” gender-neutral? I always thought so.

I believe it might be regional and perhaps generational. I was a young child - late teens in the 1970’s and 80’s. I grew up in the Deep South where we referred to everyone as “y’all”. I spent summers with relatives in Michigan who referred to a group of people (male and female) as “guys.” It was foreign to me because in the part of Louisiana where I grew up, no one referred to females as a guy.

 

[OldCop]

Late Night Musings

Reading through the pages and pages of threads, different thoughts cross my mind. As I contemplate on commenting on different people’s ideas and theories, the threads move on so quickly that my thoughts are lost. The following are just a few of the things that came to my mind in response to some of the most active discussions:

1. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable. If you have 3 witnesses who observe the same crime, you often get 3 very different descriptions. In this case there are likely no eyewitnesses to the actual crime itself and people are being asked to remember just anyone they saw in the area that day. How many people do you pass by on any given day that you could describe accurately several days, months, years later?
2. LE has said the two sketches are not the same person. However, the video is of the same suspect that we have been seeing all along. In other words, they believed that the descriptions they had, that they thought were accurate, could both fit this man in the video. This shows just how difficult it is to ID a person from a video. Right now they believe, for a reason known only to them, that the second sketch is a good likeness of the perpetrator.
3. Why did this description change now? There could be several reasons: an alibi fell through, a new witness came forward, the suspect slipped up. I am thinking that perhaps someone has had suspicions about someone they know, maybe a relative or friend. They may have been reluctant or afraid to give this person’s name to law enforcement. They may have hoped someone else would be arrested or someone else would give LE this person’s name. With the recent 2 yr anniversary of the murders, there was a lot of publicity. It might have been enough to propel this person forward. The police had the second sketch since shortly after the murder, but chose to go on the other description. They may now believe that the second sketch fits the description of the new suspect much more accurately.
4. Did the girls know him? It is possible they knew who he was, but did not know him per se. I.e. “There’s that weird guy who lives at...... or hangs at....”. Or he was completely unknown to them, but was acting strange. Whatever, something made them uncomfortable about him.
5. Some people come down really hard on LE. Many are angry now saying they “wasted 2 years having people look for the wrong person”. LE does make mistakes sometimes but when you are investigating a crime such as this, you can only go where the evidence leads you. You have 2 young dead girls in an isolated area. You have no direct eyewitness. It appears the perpetrator was prepared and careful. If there was dna, it seems they have not found a match. The CSI syndrome leads everyone to believe that all cases abound with evidence and that they can be solved in an hour. Stranger murders, (meaning someone not close to or known to the victim) are the hardest to solve. All the naysayers should go out to an isolated area this afternoon. Imagine you come upon a body. There is no one around. There is little or no evidence there. How will you solve this? How quickly?
6. There is lots of discussion about how the suspect is reacting to the latest press conference and new sketch. A lot depends on his mental state and the reason for the murders. If he is motivated by anger and hatred, he may be further enraged by by being directly addressed and being told he should be ashamed. If he is a pedophile who thinks he may be close to being arrested, he is probably more scared than anything. If he is the type of killer who believes he is smarter than everyone else, he was probably quite pleased at the original description; that everyone had it so wrong. After all, if you are the suspect and see a video/photo of yourself taken by the victim, it must seem to you that it is so obvious that it is you and that you are going to be arrested quickly. Then the sketch comes out and looks nothing like you. You are probably dumbfounded and also feeling pretty cocky. Now this new sketch is out and it really does look like you. There has to be that adrenaline rush. Are they going to get you now? As days go by and they still don’t come to get you, that superior feeling starts to come back. You have outsmarted everyone again. This is the type of person who will likely continue to kill because they feel invincible.

JMHO

 

[ocgrad]

Sometimes there are kids who are smarter beyond their years. I truly believe Libby was one of those kids. If she knew to photograph him, knew to flip the button on record, knew to shove it in her pocket while recording, do you honestly think she wanted her murderer take custody of it?
I think this child in having an interest in this field enough to take classes, acted on her instincts and "lost" her "evidence" in underbrush, leaves, whatever to be found. Her granddad said she was like that...probably took the pic of the weird BG so the she could show it to him when she got home. (Dr. Phil interview, I believe)
I keep wanting to tell Libby, she did a good job! We hear her! Just bear with us while we figure it out!
MOO, MOO

I agree! But just want to note that BP said she did not have any pockets that day. It really is a mystery how she hid it. And crossed a creek too!

 

[ocgrad]

Guys, coming from a transplant. Is “dudes” gender-neutral? I always thought so.

I think it less regional than generational. If you are under 30 maybe, it is neutral