IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #11

[Gunther Toody]

I can honestly say I've read every post on every thread and I am caught up.

I wanted to post this article re: Child Homicides and the Psychology of the Perpetrators because as I was reading, I didn't read a lot about the criminology/victimology, forensic psychology of the BG, and statistics for this type of crime and I think it's a very important topic for discussion.

Here is an excerpt containing important facts and statistics from that article:

"Published in the academic journal Victims and Offenders, this review conducted in the United States, also confirms that police can infer a lot about who committed the crime just from the age of the victim. When a child is younger than five, the suspect, who is equally likely to be male or female, is most probably from within the same family, not motivated by the urge to molest and tends to kill using their hands. When the child is between the ages of five and 12, the suspect is most often male, a close friend or a stranger, sexually compulsive, killing using means such as strangling. Finally, if the child victim is between 13 and 17, the suspect is most likely to be a close friend or a stranger, sexually driven and killing with weapons.

Heide and colleagues also report on the most complete previous study of sexually motivated child abduction murders. Analysis of 621 cases representing 44 states across the U.S. showed that in 44 percent of the cases the victim was deceased within one hour after they were abducted. Within three hours, 74 percent of victims were dead. Fast action in missing children cases becomes vital because data suggests there is typically a two-hour delay after a child is reported missing.

Heide, Beauregard and Myers also report location patterns now play a crucial rule in the way forensic science is used to apprehend culprits. They report studies which conclude that in the majority of cases (72 percent,) the radius from the body recovery site to murder scene is less than 200 feet. The distribution was different when it came to journey from the initial contact setting to the murder site: 31 percent travelled 0–199 feet, whereas 43 percent trekked 1.5–12 miles.

Christine Gregoire an Attorney General from Washington State reports the killers are usually at the initial contact site for legitimate reasons. They either lived in the area or were engaging in some routine. She also reports most child abduction murders are opportunistic. Only in 14 percent of cases was the victim picked out because of some physical characteristic. The initial contact site is within 1/4 mile of the victim’s last known location in 80 percent of cases."

Here is a link to that article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...rs-children-psychology-profiles-child-killers

I am also going to attach a dissertation that thoroughly discusses child-abduction/homicides and the cited perpetrator's geographical habits and how the crime scene in its location and how the victims were left (which we don't know yet) among many other assailant tendencies is also invaluable to understanding the MO of these vicious killers, and hopefully bringing Abby and Libby's killer to justice ... This paper is long, but it is incredible resourceful even if skimmed, IMO:

http://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1545&context=gc_etds

I think it's important for us to analyze criminology and the statistics of child murders because, Science... And there are different types of killers motivated by different types of scenarios and victims. Do we think he's a "Lust", "Mission-Oriented", "Visual", or "Power and Control" type of killer? As described here:

https://sites.google.com/site/psych...hat-are-the-different-types-of-serial-killers

*I'm aware he may not be a serial killer, but, for reference sake, this type of killing can be ascribed to the methodologies often used by serial killers*

Let me know what you all think. :thinking:

This is the proper approach to take...thanks for posting this information.

 

[Elainera]

I finally read the Lyric and Elizabeth case. The similarities to Liberty & Abigail's case are frightening. A few things that stand out:
School holiday
Early afternoon went missing
Bridge & body of water involved
Cause of death not released

Add to that in both cases it was the 13th of the month that the girls were taken. Possibly a significant number for the perp.

The facial similarities of the girls are also striking imo.

 

[Anything really]

I think it looks like he has a shadow, goatie?
Not sure if they look similar..

 

[Jax49]

Add to that in both cases it was the 13th of the month that the girls were taken. Possibly a significant number for the perp.

The facial similarities of the girls are also striking imo.

I agree, the two sets of girls look strikingly alike -- at least to me. Plus one girl is significantly larger than the other.

MOO, of course.

 

[*Verdigris]

I read this pages and pages and threads ago, but can someone enlighten me as to how we know the girls had open caskets?

http://www.newsbug.info/monticello_...cle_4b1989d8-f7db-11e6-9f4b-ff5056c72de5.html

open caskets mentioned:

"Music played while weeping mourners – many of them teenagers – filed past the white, open caskets of Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14...,"

 

[myfewsense]

Add to that in both cases it was the 13th of the month that the girls were taken. Possibly a significant number for the perp.

The facial similarities of the girls are also striking imo.

I keep going back to a school employee, like a janitor, or cafeteria worker. It is someone who would not be missed for 4 or 5 hours. A single, divorced school employee off for a school holiday wouldn't be missed by anyone for 5 hours.

 

[Gunther Toody]

This is a direct quote describing BG's attire directly from the FBI website:

"Investigators have distributed a photo (shown above) of a person observed on the Delphi Historic Trail. The photo appears to depict a White male wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket, and a hoodie. During the course of the investigation, preliminary evidence has led investigators to believe the aforementioned person is suspected of being involved in the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German."


https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/abigail-williams

FWIW I'm going to go with the analysis of the FBI. And IMO, to me he does not appear to be smoking, it's just the open-crease of his jacket and the poor photo still quality and the overall photo quality is so blurry it's hard to make specifics...

I do agree that in some photos with photo adjustments, it appears his head is down without a hoodie and in others it appears the hoodie is over is head concealing/shadowing his face and eyes. It's hard to tell because these two photos are so grainy... But, I also believe those two photo stills were taken "in step" cadence of his walk, and if that is true, then his hoodie was still covering his head as he would not have had time to put it up, or down, in that specific time frame, so, I think his hoodie was either up or down (and the photo grain and lighting make it hard to know exactly).

Also, to bolster my opinion, (that these stills were taken in succession with the video) his arms are in relatively the same place and his hands remain concealed, showing very little body movement besides his feet/legs walking in step.

Image on left is the original...the others are my attempts to clean the facial area of the suspect up via online photo editor.
I do not see a cigarette and it looks like he is wearing a hat or hoodie..

 

[myfewsense]

Image on left is the original...the others are my attempts to clean the facial area of the suspect up via online photo editor.
I do not see a cigarette and it looks like he is wearing a hat or hoodie..


View attachment 111082 View attachment 111080 View attachment 111081

At last week's the press conference, law enforcement confirmed it is a hoodie.

 

[Tulessa]

I see I'm not the only one to be losing sleep over this case.

 

[SilentRogue]

I see I'm not the only one to be losing sleep over this case.

I can't focus on anything else. I have slept about 3 hours tonight.


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[wfsltt]

When I look at the pictures I see a hoodie, but the hood is down, The guy appears to be wearing a camo ball cap withe the bill of the cap in a tight U shape that was popular years back. This is done so you do not have to wear sun glasses. It shades your eyes from the top and both sides, It is also a clue to his age.

 

[bessie]

The thread is open for posting again. Please find a new topic, one which will not destroy an innocent person's life. That is NOT what we do here at WS.

The topic in itself was fine. When you start digging around the web, however, and single out a particular private individual or two, then you've crossed the line. So now even the good suffer because it was an interesting area to explore, but now it's OFF LIMITS.

Everyone is anxious for an answer. Trying too hard to create one without solid evidence is potentially explosive, especially when so many imaginations are running on overtime.

If you think the info is viable, call it in. Then zip it up, stand back, and allow LE to do its job.

Bessie
WS Administrator

:bump:

 

[lecarte]

Can someone pls confirm they have called in the geocache tip.

It has been called in and emailed in.

 

[Gunther Toody]

At last week's the press conference, law enforcement confirmed it is a hoodie.

I am more inclined to think it is a front billed cap. I say this because you can see a definite outline of a front bill that goes around the sides on my images, whereas it is not visible on the original. It appears to be camo as well.

 

[paisleyowl]

I tried to use the feature to reply with quotes, but it was not cooperative. I also want to clearly state that I am very new to the online "sleuthing" (although my father was a forensics detective in a large city so I am somewhat familiar with crime). And everything that I state below is only my opinion.

*In comparisons with the murdered girls in Iowa, there definitely seem to be similarities. However, I also noticed some differences that seem (to me, and maybe only to me) to be important. In the case of the girls in Iowa, they were transported about 20 miles from where their bicycles were found to where their bodies were found. Their bodies were also left in what appears to be a less traveled/less visible area as it took months for them to be found where these girls in Indiana were able to be found rapidly.
*In my opinion it seems to be more likely that the suspect has at least some times and time spent in the community, and definitely more than "just passing through". While it seems to be a park/trail system popular to locals, it does not seem to be a place that someone unfamiliar with the area would know about. Also, in traveling from the suspected point of contact on the bridge to the area where the bodies were found the suspect would need to know that they would be able to get back to their point of entry/escape rapidly.
* I have noticed that the FBI seems to get involved sooner and more thoroughly (at least to the public observations) in cases that have a high profile in the media and this may help to explain why there is such a presence so early on in a case. Also, at least where I grew up, it is not uncommon for small town police departments to seek out help in big cases because they do not have the same resources and experience as larger organizations (even just staffing numbers for things like a tipline).
*I will not get into details (many of which can be disturbing) but just because the girls had open caskets does not seem to necessarily mean that there were not traumatic injuries. Many things can be "doctored" by well trained mortician and/or covered by clothing.
*There have been several mentions of other people that are said to have seen the girls or been in the area at the time and saw others in the area (I think I remember someone mentioning a woman on the bridge observing a couple and/or a man there). Are there any links to this information?

 

[GGE]

(Sillybilly, having maaajor problems still with autorefresh, can barely read or post...is tech working on this to resolve the issue? Tia!)

Probably fixed now but just turning off adobe flash player in my browser fixes this site indefinitely. It's downright luxurious.

 

[mpnola]

I tried to use the feature to reply with quotes, but it was not cooperative. I also want to clearly state that I am very new to the online "sleuthing" (although my father was a forensics detective in a large city so I am somewhat familiar with crime). And everything that I state below is only my opinion.

*In comparisons with the murdered girls in Iowa, there definitely seem to be similarities. However, I also noticed some differences that seem (to me, and maybe only to me) to be important. In the case of the girls in Iowa, they were transported about 20 miles from where their bicycles were found to where their bodies were found. Their bodies were also left in what appears to be a less traveled/less visible area as it took months for them to be found where these girls in Indiana were able to be found rapidly.
*In my opinion it seems to be more likely that the suspect has at least some times and time spent in the community, and definitely more than "just passing through". While it seems to be a park/trail system popular to locals, it does not seem to be a place that someone unfamiliar with the area would know about. Also, in traveling from the suspected point of contact on the bridge to the area where the bodies were found the suspect would need to know that they would be able to get back to their point of entry/escape rapidly.
* I have noticed that the FBI seems to get involved sooner and more thoroughly (at least to the public observations) in cases that have a high profile in the media and this may help to explain why there is such a presence so early on in a case. Also, at least where I grew up, it is not uncommon for small town police departments to seek out help in big cases because they do not have the same resources and experience as larger organizations (even just staffing numbers for things like a tipline).
*I will not get into details (many of which can be disturbing) but just because the girls had open caskets does not seem to necessarily mean that there were not traumatic injuries. Many things can be "doctored" by well trained mortician and/or covered by clothing.
*There have been several mentions of other people that are said to have seen the girls or been in the area at the time and saw others in the area (I think I remember someone mentioning a woman on the bridge observing a couple and/or a man there). Are there any links to this information?

My post #31 in the media thread has the answer and source link to the Heavy article for your last question. Nice post!

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[GGE]

PLEASE STOP SENDING TIPS of innocent men that have nothing to do with this. You are wasting LE's time. Yes, there are many coincidences sometimes but it doesn't mean that was the killer. Unless you're 100% sure about anything, don't send false info. I know they said to send even insignificant information but NOT sending information about random people. You are wasting time and it's very personal and sensitive to accuse people.

BBM - With all due respect, this is bad advice and goes directly against what LE has instructed the public to do. They absolutely positively do NOT want people to say to themselves "well I'm not 100% sure about this, only 99% sure that the guy I knonw who looks exactly like that guy who wasn't accounted for on that day who likes to hike and has a past arrest record for hurting children could be the BG, so I think I will keep it to myself becuase he didn't confess to me, so I can't be 100% on this"... that's ridiculous. Why would one throw a roadblock up in the investigation by telling people NOT to report this guy? :thinking:

 

[mpnola]

Adrenaline. That is the word that keeps coming to mind tonight. This guy not only crossed a bridge that some of our members wouldn't even step on, but he also chose to control and kill 2 victims. In the height of the day. With other people around. In a public area. And left them in the same area to be found! This guy feeds on adrenaline

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[Mophebius]

My apologies for not reading every single post. Since there seems to be quite a bit of contention about the suspects photo and audio released by LE, I figured I'd give my two cents on those particular issues first.

So first, as far as the photo itself goes, I see a Caucasian male, approx. 37-44 years old. They appear to have a light amount of light brown facial hair, more than scruff but potentially not a fully grown out beard. This individual appears to have their left hand in their left front jeans pants pocket. Their right hand appears to be in their right brown hoodie pocket, which hangs down below the rigidity of what appears to be some type of more heavy duty, blue utility jacket/work coat. His overall look sort of reminds me of fishermen here in Montana in the fall and spring. They appear to be carrying something of some consequence either inside their jacket on the right hand side or perhaps in the right hand coat pocket itself. Though the photo is somewhat pixelated, I do not believe that the suspect gives off the typical homeless/drifter vibe. The colors in the blue coat and blue jeans suggest, reasonably well kept well laundered. Not something you'd expect to see on a typical drifter/transient. I believe we see the top of the head and I do not see any significant male pattern baldness.

As for the audio loop that was released, I think it is pretty clear that the suspect says "Get down the hill" not just "Down the hill" I have listened to the clip particularly closely. A few thoughts on the audio. I listened to the audio repeatedly and thought that the person on the audio sounds somewhat younger than I was expecting to hear based on the photo. I do not believe that the person on audio is older than early 40's and I would say late 30's to 40 is probably more likely. I sensed in the suspects voice that they were experiencing stress. Likely fear of being heard, fear of being seen, potentially fear of one or both of the captors being insubordinate. I do not get the sense that the suspect is a typically commanding person. I would guess that this is a typically somewhat soft spoken individual in their day to day life with occasional anger outbursts. They likely are introverted but still rather acclimated into the community. I do not believe that this was a random act. I believe that these girls were targeted. I also believe that we will come to find out that this individual has abducted, raped or murdered before. This wasn't an isolated incident for them as a crime of opportunity. This was a case of stalking and or setting these victims up somehow online or simply following their social media footprints until he knew he could strike. I believe this person is local or at least semi-local, likely lives within 15-35 miles of the crime. They would have been familiar with this area and particularly these trails in the past, recently or both.

People should be thinking back about noticing someone matching this description walking these trails in the two weeks previous to this event. This person would absolutely been through this area recently, possibly as recently as the previous few days preceding February 13th.They would have had a plan already in place and mentally rehearsed this before they went through with the crime itself. I believe that this person acted alone in the crimes.

That's roughly my opinion so far based on what I know.