IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #50

[Evania]

Can't speak for the other 44, but until something further develops, I don't have anything new to add but my opinions. But I do read everything here.

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Same here...I'm waiting for any new developments. I still am checking in though, praying each day for justice.
My heart is especially hurting for the families as they celebrate their first Easter without their girls.

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[Bemused]

Not that I am aware of. I read some stats early on that suggested it was somewhat unusual to abduct or kill 2 teens at once. Folks seemed to be using that information as another similarity between the Delphi and Iowa cases(stating that it was at least somewhat uncommon). One problem(for us) is that there are so few things actually known as fact about this case. For one thing, SA is very common when teen girls are killed, yet we don't know whether or not that happened in this case.

How old were the little girls in Iowa? My impression from their photos were they were younger than Abby and Libby.

 

[otto]

How old were the little girls in Iowa? My impression from their photos were they were younger than Abby and Libby.

They were 8 and 10, but 10 year old Lyric was mature for her age. She'd had a difficult childhood because her parents were addicts, she had to grow up quickly. Roughly a week before the abduction she was at a different park with a different cousin and the family was on the verge of calling police when she returned home.

https://iowacoldcases.org/case-summaries/lyric-cook-and-elizabeth-collins/

 

[Aropizt]

The other day, a couple of members were talking about the possibility of poor reception in the trail area. IIRC, it was said that phones will continue to try to upload to Snapchat until the signal improves enough to be successful.

If that happens, is the time the pic was taken stamped or is the actual time of uploading stamped?

I'm catching up so my apologies if this was already answered but I was part of that original discussion and the very reason it interested me is that those time stamps on Snapchat would be of the time it was uploaded, not when it was taken. You can even take the picture with another app, or I could say, take a photo I from months ago, upload it to Snapchat, and the time on it would be the time it was uploaded, not the time it was taken.

I'm not sure it's ever been confirmed reception was an issue (but of course that also varies by provider. I know I've used Sprint, AT&T, Verizon, and a couple of prepaid options that are run over one of the above three companies networks and Sprint especially but also AT&T have issues in rural and wooded areas. Verizon seems to be the best in the Midwest. I once had bought a new phone right before going on an Amtrak ride from Detroit to Chicago- which means I even would've passed through Indiana probably not far from Delphi- anyway my new phone was on Verizon and the old one was on AT&T and both were still active so I used the train trip to compare service and Verizon pretty much never completely lost the signal while AT&T did a few times in western MI and Indiana). Heck, both AT&T and Sprint have given me massive issues in the western suburbs of Detroit which is more spread up and wooded than the other suburbs in that very densely populated area but that's a part of the state where a bunch of expressways come together (and that was what made losing signal so notable. I've gotten lost or turned off on the wrong highway because of signal drop). So hard to say or know for sure.

But definitely an issue worth considering. And it would even make sense. Somewhere (I think it may have been Gray Hughes in one of his videos but I'm unsure) estimated the time it would take to cross that bridge and it really wouldn't take that long. So either the girls stood around up there talking or whatever or it's totally conceivable then that they were already across before things uploaded. I'm unsure if that makes any real difference in the timeline but it could suggest then that the timeline is a bit different.

Lastly, one thing that I'm not sure of is that often, for sure with text messages and emails, while it will keep trying to post them for several minutes eventually if a signal isn't reached the phone will send you an error of some sorts or otherwise give up on trying. But I know Facebook, from experience, will send a post through if even after it didn't upload you open the app again even like ten minutes later or hours later as it happened to me and suddenly upload what it couldn't earlier. With texts you have to select to try again usually if it fails. Think I've seen it both ways with email. So I'm unsure of the specifics or if what I just said makes sense.

All of this said, and of course MOO, one thing I'm relatively sure of is that there's a very realistic possibility that those photos may have been taken at a time other than 2:07. Worth saying too that even if the signal was fine those photos themselves could've been taken sooner and only uploaded at that point precisely because the time stamp on Snapchat is the time of upload, not the time taken.


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[Wondergirl]

Bringing this old post forward ... don't remember if this is the latest version

This has been unsolved long enough that I'd like to try something different, and I hope that everyone here will pitch in and add to the list.

I believe there is a possibility that the person who did this also murdered Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins in Evansdale Iowa on July 13, 2012. If we could make a list of facts that are common in both sets of murders, that might help us understand the man behind this. I'll start the list:

• two girls aged 8 and 10, and two other girls aged 13 and 14, abducted five years apart
• both occurred on the 13th day of the month: Friday July 13, 2012 and Monday, Feb 13, 2017
• girls were at local parks, but in an area where they were separated from other visitors
• abductions occurred shortly after noon
• girl's bodies were found 50 feet from a slow river / creek
• at least one of each set of girls was an avid online communicator
• at least one of each set lived part time with a grandparent
• body locations are fishing/hunting/outdoorsman spots
• body locations suggest that the suspect has a familiarity with the area surrounding the park
• two set of girls have similar body types
• State Rd 218 exists very close to both murders, perhaps less than a mile from 4 lane highways
• both tiny rural towns.
• Small, inexperienced (in major crimes) police force
• Crimes both occurred in daylight hours (afternoon)
• "Bridges" exist at both locations.
• Weichman Pig dealing operations exist in both areas: company has location near Evansdale, IA and as of 2015 located in Delphi, IN
• Adding dates of birthdays and years may add up to 32 depending on how you do it. The number has a lot of negativity to it from history.
• Transco Railway products/services exist at both locations or very close (Logansport).
• "Rails to Trails" is an active org in both locations.
• Trails are located at both Monon High Bridge in Delphi and Meyers Lake in Evansdale (Evansdale Nature Trail/Cedar Valley Nature Trail)
• Geocaches hidden at Monon High Bridge, Meyers Lake and Seven Bridges
• The dates are also mirror images ... 7.13.12 and 2.13.17

I believe both are fairly close to meat packing places
With the Iowa case, everyone assumed that it was someone local, but the fact that their bodies were found 20 miles away at Seven Bridges Park suggests that someone knows the bigger fishing and hunting geography.

Otto, I didn't see this post the first go-round's, so thank-you for re-posting, it has some very valuable points in it.

The similarities of the pictures of the riverbank recovery locations for both crimes are exactly what drew me to this case - thought of Lyric & Lizzie immediately - it was alarming (for me) - and an immediate gut reaction was that it was the same perp.

I do wonder about the river playing a key aspect, on many different levels.

I did not realize geocache was in all 3 places. That is both coincidental and not surprising - I guess - due to the public nature of the locations.

When Elizabeth Collins Dad heard about Abigail and Liberty, he immediately contacted Iowa LE, so, I do know that there are many who have looked at possible connections.

We have to keep digging for all 4 of these murdered girls, and think outside the box.

WG

 

[lelandrob]

From an article linked to in this thread "The grandfather said that he didn't know Abigail Williams but that at first, he wasn't worried about the two friends.
'Family called from Delphi to see if Libby had come to Flora and if we had seen her' he said. 'The first thing on our minds was that she might have ran away, maybe she was trying to get to her mom's [in Kentucky].
'You don't know – a 14-year-old girl, she could have had an argument. Things like that go through your mind.
'Or maybe Abby got into a fight with someone and they were hiding out at her 18-year-old brother's house?


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-Indiana-teens-speaks-out.html#ixzz4eLnZTwoH
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
What makes this grandfather think Libby would run away from the grandma and grandpa's home in Delphi (Mike Patty's)? According to MP everything was rosy and he always made sure to tell Libby " I love you or something to that affect as she left the house) Just wondering as 2 stories are being given by the 2 grandfathers. JMO

In Abby's obit, there was no brother mentioned.

 

[FrostedGlass]

WADR, how does anyone know about the killer's ability to breathe with or without difficulty no matter who the killer turns out to be?

Thoughts and opinions on the internet don't arrest, try or incarcerate anyone. IMO

I don't know anything about the killer's ability to breathe.

IMO, from the video, RL walks down hill and sounds like he's short of breath (am I the only one who hears this?); he looks to me like he's breathing through his mouth.

It's my personal experience that constricted upper respiratory airways are not conducive to a lot of physical labor.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

Bringing this old post forward ... don't remember if this is the latest version

This has been unsolved long enough that I'd like to try something different, and I hope that everyone here will pitch in and add to the list.

I believe there is a possibility that the person who did this also murdered Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins in Evansdale Iowa on July 13, 2012. If we could make a list of facts that are common in both sets of murders, that might help us understand the man behind this. I'll start the list:

• two girls aged 8 and 10, and two other girls aged 13 and 14, abducted five years apart
• both occurred on the 13th day of the month: Friday July 13, 2012 and Monday, Feb 13, 2017
• girls were at local parks, but in an area where they were separated from other visitors
• abductions occurred shortly after noon
• girl's bodies were found 50 feet from a slow river / creek
• at least one of each set of girls was an avid online communicator
• at least one of each set lived part time with a grandparent
• body locations are fishing/hunting/outdoorsman spots
• body locations suggest that the suspect has a familiarity with the area surrounding the park
• two set of girls have similar body types
• State Rd 218 exists very close to both murders, perhaps less than a mile from 4 lane highways
• both tiny rural towns.
• Small, inexperienced (in major crimes) police force
• Crimes both occurred in daylight hours (afternoon)
• "Bridges" exist at both locations.
• Weichman Pig dealing operations exist in both areas: company has location near Evansdale, IA and as of 2015 located in Delphi, IN
• Adding dates of birthdays and years may add up to 32 depending on how you do it. The number has a lot of negativity to it from history.
• Transco Railway products/services exist at both locations or very close (Logansport).
• "Rails to Trails" is an active org in both locations.
• Trails are located at both Monon High Bridge in Delphi and Meyers Lake in Evansdale (Evansdale Nature Trail/Cedar Valley Nature Trail)
• Geocaches hidden at Monon High Bridge, Meyers Lake and Seven Bridges
• The dates are also mirror images ... 7.13.12 and 2.13.17

I believe both are fairly close to meat packing places
With the Iowa case, everyone assumed that it was someone local, but the fact that their bodies were found 20 miles away at Seven Bridges Park suggests that someone knows the bigger fishing and hunting geography.

I wrote out this big huge post and then when I read what I had wrote,I realized I put the "amateur" in "amateur sleuth".

 

[otto]

Not trying to hijack the thread, just illustrating the similarities and differences in the Indiana and Iowa murdered girls.

 

[otto]

I wrote out this big huge post and then when I read what I had wrote,I realized I put the "amateur" in "amateur sleuth".

What do you mean?

 

[Burnt Toast]

But do you have a link to LE saying he had been cleared, rather than MSM interpretting what LE said that way? TIA

they have cleared over 200 people during the course of their investigation. I am going to guess this was one of the 200.

 

[otto]

Otto, I didn't see this post the first go-round's, so thank-you for re-posting, it has some very valuable points in it.

The similarities of the pictures of the riverbank recovery locations for both crimes are exactly what drew me to this case - thought of Lyric & Lizzie immediately - it was alarming (for me) - and an immediate gut reaction was that it was the same perp.

I do wonder about the river playing a key aspect, on many different levels.

I did not realize geocache was in all 3 places. That is both coincidental and not surprising - I guess - due to the public nature of the locations.

When Elizabeth Collins Dad heard about Abigail and Liberty, he immediately contacted Iowa LE, so, I do know that there are many who have looked at possible connections.

We have to keep digging for all 4 of these murdered girls, and think outside the box.

WG

Me too. The locations are the same. If this is the same person, the river is significant, but I don't know why ... childhood memory? grew up near a creek?

If this is the same person, the big difference in this case is there is a photo, there is audio, and the bodies were found within 24 hours. That bodes well for police. That might mean that the suspect is getting a bit careless, which could also mean murdering closer to home ... thinking outloud ...

 

[ImnoSherlock]

What do you mean?

Meaning the thing's I wrote down didn't entirely make sense after I read over what I had wrote lol.. I was gonna launch another theory but then I found myself asking more questions in it than actually theorizing.Nothing against anyone else,I was knockin myself if anything.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'm catching up so my apologies if this was already answered but I was part of that original discussion and the very reason it interested me is that those time stamps on Snapchat would be of the time it was uploaded, not when it was taken. You can even take the picture with another app, or I could say, take a photo I from months ago, upload it to Snapchat, and the time on it would be the time it was uploaded, not the time it was taken.

I'm not sure it's ever been confirmed reception was an issue (but of course that also varies by provider. I know I've used Sprint, AT&T, Verizon, and a couple of prepaid options that are run over one of the above three companies networks and Sprint especially but also AT&T have issues in rural and wooded areas. Verizon seems to be the best in the Midwest. I once had bought a new phone right before going on an Amtrak ride from Detroit to Chicago- which means I even would've passed through Indiana probably not far from Delphi- anyway my new phone was on Verizon and the old one was on AT&T and both were still active so I used the train trip to compare service and Verizon pretty much never completely lost the signal while AT&T did a few times in western MI and Indiana). Heck, both AT&T and Sprint have given me massive issues in the western suburbs of Detroit which is more spread up and wooded than the other suburbs in that very densely populated area but that's a part of the state where a bunch of expressways come together (and that was what made losing signal so notable. I've gotten lost or turned off on the wrong highway because of signal drop). So hard to say or know for sure.

But definitely an issue worth considering. And it would even make sense. Somewhere (I think it may have been Gray Hughes in one of his videos but I'm unsure) estimated the time it would take to cross that bridge and it really wouldn't take that long. So either the girls stood around up there talking or whatever or it's totally conceivable then that they were already across before things uploaded. I'm unsure if that makes any real difference in the timeline but it could suggest then that the timeline is a bit different.

Lastly, one thing that I'm not sure of is that often, for sure with text messages and emails, while it will keep trying to post them for several minutes eventually if a signal isn't reached the phone will send you an error of some sorts or otherwise give up on trying. But I know Facebook, from experience, will send a post through if even after it didn't upload you open the app again even like ten minutes later or hours later as it happened to me and suddenly upload what it couldn't earlier. With texts you have to select to try again usually if it fails. Think I've seen it both ways with email. So I'm unsure of the specifics or if what I just said makes sense.

All of this said, and of course MOO, one thing I'm relatively sure of is that there's a very realistic possibility that those photos may have been taken at a time other than 2:07. Worth saying too that even if the signal was fine those photos themselves could've been taken sooner and only uploaded at that point precisely because the time stamp on Snapchat is the time of upload, not the time taken.


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Thank you; that was very helpful.

Even if those time stamps are accurate, the girls still had about 20 minutes between Abby's pic and BG's pic. I think they probably went down the hill and were taking pics down around the creek. It's all just MOO, of course.

 

[kat913]

Me too. The locations are the same. If this is the same person, the river is significant, but I don't know why ... childhood memory? grew up near a creek?

When you look at both scenes, they are very remote and almost identical in topography (even down to farm field beyond it). Whoever posted thet Iowa drive shows just how remote and yet how very close to a farm field. JMO

 

[Justice101]

Otto, I didn't see this post the first go-round's, so thank-you for re-posting, it has some very valuable points in it.

The similarities of the pictures of the riverbank recovery locations for both crimes are exactly what drew me to this case - thought of Lyric & Lizzie immediately - it was alarming (for me) - and an immediate gut reaction was that it was the same perp.

I do wonder about the river playing a key aspect, on many different levels.

I did not realize geocache was in all 3 places. That is both coincidental and not surprising - I guess - due to the public nature of the locations.

When Elizabeth Collins Dad heard about Abigail and Liberty, he immediately contacted Iowa LE, so, I do know that there are many who have looked at possible connections.

We have to keep digging for all 4 of these murdered girls, and think outside the box.

WG

That would explain why the FBI was brought in so quickly.. if LE felt both sets of murders were connected.

 

[Ghosthunter]

Not trying to hijack the thread, just illustrating the similarities and differences in the Indiana and Iowa murdered girls.

Hijack it! I'm begging you! The rl iis BG and the RL isn't BG is like a broken record every evening and degrades into a pissing contest every day with snarky comments from some members. Id be happy discussing anything except that at this point.. Jmo! We are a better group than that. Lets try to discuss something constructive. Please!!!

 

[BoggLed in Ohio]

Someone asked for this video of the Iowa case. Here it is

https://youtu.be/oAZWdBFs2LQ

 

[WebSight]

I'm catching up so my apologies if this was already answered but I was part of that original discussion and the very reason it interested me is that those time stamps on Snapchat would be of the time it was uploaded, not when it was taken. You can even take the picture with another app, or I could say, take a photo I from months ago, upload it to Snapchat, and the time on it would be the time it was uploaded, not the time it was taken.

I'm not sure it's ever been confirmed reception was an issue (but of course that also varies by provider. I know I've used Sprint, AT&T, Verizon, and a couple of prepaid options that are run over one of the above three companies networks and Sprint especially but also AT&T have issues in rural and wooded areas. Verizon seems to be the best in the Midwest. I once had bought a new phone right before going on an Amtrak ride from Detroit to Chicago- which means I even would've passed through Indiana probably not far from Delphi- anyway my new phone was on Verizon and the old one was on AT&T and both were still active so I used the train trip to compare service and Verizon pretty much never completely lost the signal while AT&T did a few times in western MI and Indiana). Heck, both AT&T and Sprint have given me massive issues in the western suburbs of Detroit which is more spread up and wooded than the other suburbs in that very densely populated area but that's a part of the state where a bunch of expressways come together (and that was what made losing signal so notable. I've gotten lost or turned off on the wrong highway because of signal drop). So hard to say or know for sure.

But definitely an issue worth considering. And it would even make sense. Somewhere (I think it may have been Gray Hughes in one of his videos but I'm unsure) estimated the time it would take to cross that bridge and it really wouldn't take that long. So either the girls stood around up there talking or whatever or it's totally conceivable then that they were already across before things uploaded. I'm unsure if that makes any real difference in the timeline but it could suggest then that the timeline is a bit different.

Lastly, one thing that I'm not sure of is that often, for sure with text messages and emails, while it will keep trying to post them for several minutes eventually if a signal isn't reached the phone will send you an error of some sorts or otherwise give up on trying. But I know Facebook, from experience, will send a post through if even after it didn't upload you open the app again even like ten minutes later or hours later as it happened to me and suddenly upload what it couldn't earlier. With texts you have to select to try again usually if it fails. Think I've seen it both ways with email. So I'm unsure of the specifics or if what I just said makes sense.

All of this said, and of course MOO, one thing I'm relatively sure of is that there's a very realistic possibility that those photos may have been taken at a time other than 2:07. Worth saying too that even if the signal was fine those photos themselves could've been taken sooner and only uploaded at that point precisely because the time stamp on Snapchat is the time of upload, not the time taken.


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Not saavy on the technical issue so I cannot respond to that, Aropizt.

In fact, I thought that you took pictures somehow through the snapchat app and so I assumed that at 2:07 the girls were at that spot on the bridge. My 17 year old daughter pointed out that the photo could have been taken anytime with the phone and then loaded to the snapchat app. whenever they felt like it. She has some pretty distinct theories about what happened to the girls, including the perp using their phone. But she's still formulating things in her mind. But the snapchat photo sent off alarm bells in her head right away.

 

[otto]

Meaning the thing's I wrote down didn't entirely make sense after I read over what I had wrote lol.. I was gonna launch another theory but then I found myself asking more questions in it than actually theorizing.Nothing against anyone else,I was knockin myself if anything.

I've done that before ... the more I write, the more I realize I can't refute the theory.
Cheers ...it's a long shot, but not out of the question.